Why evil if God is so great?

Hi everyone....

A little over a year ago I had to do a lot of thinking about this...I will give you what I came up with.

We have some close friends who lost a 26 day old baby. At the time I was teaching a Sunday school class of senior high students, and because I was the teacher, I basically got to depress them for about 3 weeks. The thought process that that I went through was pretty lengthy, so I will try and start where your question comes in.

With the fall of Adam and Eve, a rift occured with God. Suddenly we had knowledge of good and evil....but it wasnt God's knowledge, it was based upon ourselves and not God. (this is actually a thought that I picked up from Bonhoeffer). This gave satan, evil, wickedness (pick what ever term works best here) a hold on humans because of the separation from God. This is where I view that freewill comes into play.

God and satan had already split, with satan being cast out of heaven. With the fall of man satan saw his chance to prove to God that he was God's equal by rulling the earth. Satans ultimate goal is to get everyone on earth to deny God. When I think about it, satan is very crafty, he as done a great job of getting us to blame God when bad things happen, even though he is the cause. This world and life may be one big test for God to prove to satan that he is not God's equal. One one had, we as ego driven people, who do not have the mind of God, might find this as some sort of cruel game. But what we have from God is forgiveness and the promise of paradise, for having to have endured the evil on this earth. Maybe the simple answer is just so we will appreciate heaven more when we get there....

I will try and expand more at some point....but the boy just got fussy, so I guess its breakfast time.

the janitor
 
God is so Powerful, and also so Loving. He made certain laws, and like any other law, there are consequences that will occure once a law is broken. Man sined (broke a law), and evil, the opposite of good, came as a result. But, God is so amazing, he made a plan to fix what he knew would occure. Be thankful that there is evil. Why? Because God foreknew before making us (his beloved children) that we would inharate sin and death. But, because he loved us SO much, he created us anyway, and made a full proof plan to fix everything in the end.

Be thankful to God that he gave you life, and a free chance at eternal living in the most incridble bliss anyone can imagine!
 
Apologetic Warrior said:
I think that's an awful small box you've put God into, and it's illogical God being all powerful does not mean that there are no other powers, just no powers that offer any real competition, I'd also disagree with the concept that God is altruistic. God(at least the God of the bible) is a jealous god, he is vengeful and wrathful looking through the Old Testament He says as much, however God is certainly not evil. The chief end of man is to Glorify God, God however has three options, He can seek to glorify something greater than Himself, which is impossible, He can seek to glorify something lower than Himself, which is silly, Or He can seek to glorify Himself. It seems selfish and I suppose it is, but it's legitimate, man should never seek after his own interests, he's not worthy, God is the only thing that's worth seeking even for Himself. God is self seeking by necessity. God's greatest glory lies in us seeking after him when the odds are so heavily stacked against us, God allows evil to thrive so that by us turning to Him against all odds His true glory may be revealed. A healed heart is far more glorious than a perfect one, a victory snatched from the jaws of defeat more precious than a sure one. Just an idea.
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Whew, where to begin? So according to your logic, God is not all powerful, all knowing, and all present. Ok, but in addition you say God is anthropomorhized, capricious and bears some of the worst negative behavior we see in man. Do I have that right? Or do I misunderstand your point?
 
Paladin said:
Whew, where to begin? So according to your logic, God is not all powerful, all knowing, and all present. Ok, but in addition you say God is anthropomorhized, capricious and bears some of the worst negative behavior we see in man. Do I have that right? Or do I misunderstand your point?
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With $50.00 words like that, I missed your point...:D

ez is ze way. ;)

v/r

Q
 
I suppose if you look at it from a christian point of veiw God gave Adam and Eve free will to choose what to do and not what to do. It is also said that God refuses to intevien in human affairs ever again after the flood; Noah. So you could bring "Evil" down to choice and free will if you were Christian.
 
sorry Q, but it was the only word I could think of that accurately expressed my point. Look to your own screen name for its meaning:)

What I meant was, that God is much bigger and higher than the capacity and nature (ie Qua), of mankind (hom)
I cannot believe for a moment that God is actually Jealous, selfish, wrathful or any other small, mean, petty things that man in his ignorance is capable of dredging up.
Further, I think that we in our true nature are in fact wonderful, beautiful creations of the Divine, sharing in that trancendental nature, and once we realize both our oneness with God, with each other, and all of creation, our conciousness will be such as to preclude any kind of negative thought or action.

Oh, and not to imply that your screen name is in any way negative, but that to anthropomorphize God is to bring Him down to our limited way of thinking and being.

Am I being clear here or just digging myself into trouble deeper? :)
 
Paladin said:
sorry Q, but it was the only word I could think of that accurately expressed my point. Look to your own screen name for its meaning:)

What I meant was, that God is much bigger and higher than the capacity and nature (ie Qua), of mankind (hom)
I cannot believe for a moment that God is actually Jealous, selfish, wrathful or any other small, mean, petty things that man in his ignorance is capable of dredging up.
Further, I think that we in our true nature are in fact wonderful, beautiful creations of the Divine, sharing in that trancendental nature, and once we realize both our oneness with God, with each other, and all of creation, our conciousness will be such as to preclude any kind of negative thought or action.

Oh, and not to imply that your screen name is in any way negative, but that to anthropomorphize God is to bring Him down to our limited way of thinking and being.

Am I being clear here or just digging myself into trouble deeper? :)
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Nope, I appreciate in full what you just posted. But there is a very tiny problem...my screen name.

See, it has nothing to do with any language on earth, though it does identify Earthly humans. It means male human before the right of ascension (little human boy who thinks he's a warrior), in Klinzhai (or Klingon). It is pronounced Qha' Hchom (very gutteral sound). But that is for another time...:D

v/r

Q
 
God is so great that he loves mankind so much to give the freedom of choice

Deuteronomy 30

19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life, that you and your descendants may live,

First we have to agree there exists pure evil in this world. If one does not agree no one can help that person see.

So why do some some suffer while others don't?

Romans 12
4 For as in one body we have many members, and all the members do not have the same function, 5 so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.

14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep.

So basically when the other person rejoices, we are supposed to rejoice with that person and the same for suffering. It is because we do not realise all are in one body we have differences.

All points to this:

* Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your strength....
You need the spirit of the Lord to show love to your neighbour, even to the point of giving your life itself! The nature of human spirit cannot do that.

* Love your neighbour as yourself.

Then evil will be gone!

Thanks.
 
Paladin said:
Sheesh, you would have thought I knew that... being Betazoid and all...:)
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I thought you were half Betazoid, being empathic but not psychic and all...:cool:

v/r

Q
 
hpet said:
God is so great that he loves mankind so much to give the freedom of choice


First we have to agree there exists pure evil in this world. If one does not agree no one can help that person see.

So why do some some suffer while others don't?


So basically when the other person rejoices, we are supposed to rejoice with that person and the same for suffering. It is because we do not realise all are in one body we have differences.

All points to this:

* Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your strength....
You need the spirit of the Lord to show love to your neighbour, even to the point of giving your life itself! The nature of human spirit cannot do that.

* Love your neighbour as yourself.

Then evil will be gone!

Thanks.
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Welcome to CR Hpet ;)

Interesting points you bring up. Very similar to what another member (Palidin) describes in another part of the CR forum.

It caused me to think of another metaphor, for lack of a better term, concerning the losing of a hand or a foot or an eye in order to enter Heaven rather that going to Hell, whole. I wonder if they are both refering to the same original concept of humanity?...

Weclome aboard! ;)

v/r

Q
 
Sin comes from one's own will,without one"s will there is no sin and no uniqeness in other words no difference.Thats why we must learn and tast the crambs to recieve the loaf, and thats why we are born in sin, meaning one"s free will.
Yes we are given the freedom of choice to choose our own will or in unity of Gods will through Christ Jesus, making two paths to choose from


THE DEVIL HAS TRIED TO GREAT HIMSELF IN HIS OWN IMAGE, IN OPPOSING GOD ALMIGHTY PRINCIPLE RULE;

1 DECEPTION OF THE ETERNAL MEANING OF GOD.

2 LIES OF THE RECONCILIATION THE WORD OF ETERNAL GOD ALMIGHTY THROUGH HIS CHRIST JESUS OUR LORD.

3 THEFT OF THE CREATION THROUGH THE RECONCILIATION OF THE ETERNAL MEANING OF GOD ALMIGHTY.

4 SLANDERING OF THE TEACHING BY HOLY SPIRIT THROUGH THE RECONCILIATION OF THE ETERNAL MEANING OF GOD ALMIGHTY.

5 HATE / MURDEROUS OF THE GUIDANCE BY HOLY SPIRIT THROUGH RECONCILIATION OF THE ETERNAL MEANING OF GOD ALMIGHTY.

6 DOMINATION OF THE CHOICE.

7 SELF IMAGE OF THE DESTINATION .







 
God created angels in such a way that they can only obey Him. They can't disobey. They are creatures of light without free will.

According to the Qur'an, God introduced free will to two types only of His creation: the jinn (creatures made of fire), and the human race.

Satan, according to the Qur'an was a jinn, not an angel. God commanded him to prostrate to Adam, but he refused, as he thought that he was better than Adam. For this he was cursed by God, and to take his revenge he promised he would misguide as many humans as he could.

As humans have free will, by definition we have the freedom to choose between good and evil. If there were no evil, how could we choose and apply our free will.

Postmaster said:
if God is so great why is there pain Evil and suffering?

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This question is answered from a Muslim perspective, if of interest, on this page:

http://www.islamonline.net/fatwa/english/FatwaDisplay.asp?hFatwaID=50801
 
Kabbalists tell us that the Creator created everything that exists with one simple thought: to delight the created beings. So he creates a vessel to receive pleasure, the vessel is 100% egoistic, it only wants to receive, and the Creator is 100% altruistic, only wanting to give. The vessel is created and receives pleasure, until it senses the Creator. Once the Creator is sensed, the creature senses that it is completely opposite to the Creator, he only gives and I only receive. The creature wants to give but has nothing to give, however this is still egoistic, it wants to give in order to stop the feeling of shame. Then the creature eventually feels so much shame at only receiving that the decision is made to stop receiving the Light of the Creator. Then the universal soul of Adam is split into many souls which are incarnated into bodies of this world where with the wisdom of Kabbalah, they can eventually learn to receive the light with the sole intention of bringing contentment to their maker. The "evil inclination" is the desire to receive, it was created so that the created beings could independently choose alruism. You may think you have free will, but according to Kabbalah, you are only a puppet on a string, controlled by the Creator until you go above your overcome the desire to receive. The Creator does all the work, he creates the desire to receive, and then transforms it into the will to bestow, our only free will is to agree with the Creator. The kabbalistic interpretation to the Bible suggests that the pharoah is the desire to receive for yourself, if you see that everything you do is 100% selfish, but that you have no free will in it, that the Creator forced you to be enslaved by pharoah, then you can cry out to him to free you from slavery and instill in you the desire to bestow. Your only free choice is to agree with everything the creator does and beg for to be freed from the rule of pharoah.
 
In order to understand the goodness
thats what I have been told by i-brian's avatar, think about it, let the sinless one throw the first stone,

I just give kabbalah, isnt it something good?
 
I believe there is evil because there has to be. If people did not know evil how would they know goodness? How would you know light if you only saw the dark? How would you know love if you didn't know hate? There is a balance, a very fine lined balance. You can not have one without the other...male-female,
life-death...etc.
 
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