Somethings I just can't accpet..

[Postmaster]

wikipedia.org states that Bahá'u'lláh had 3 wives and also Babi's tried to assassinate the Persian king and because Bahá'u'lláh was one of the followers and although never had anything to do with it, they imprisoned him. To me this is extremely controversial and also found out that up 25 people claimed to the person the Bab said was coming. Also

It is said this included trying to poison Bahá'u'lláh. (The Hasht Bihisht version is that it was Bahá'u'lláh who tried to poison Mirza Yahya, and accidently took the poison himself.)

So, I find with this research I can not accept this religion. I was just wondering some of the views of people on this forum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%E1%27u%27ll%E1h%27s_family#Controversy_and_Confusion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%E1'u'll%E1h#Legitimacy_of_Bah.E1.27u.27ll.E1h.27s_claim

surely no way I can accpet such a religion and had no idea.

 

[iBrian]

Everyone is free to make their own decisions as to whether to accept any particular religion or not.

Be careful with Wikipedia, though - completely neutral it is not.

 

[kiwimac]

There can be no doubt that the early Baha'i history is controversial but I would simply say, examine the characters of Baha'ullah, Abdu'l-Baha and the Bab. Take a look at independent sources such as Edward Browne's books about his time in Persia and other sources available on the Internet.

Kiwimac

 

[Postmaster]

Well, I'm not sure, they do claim http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%E1b#Discrepant_accounts_of_events

To be honest it makes sense in a lot of ways, but this is a faith which Islam gave birth to, I have been raised to believe Islam is false and nasty religion and probably vice versa with them towards Christianity, to me it's like trying to eat dirt which is good for you in accepting this faith (but not preaching it), I will continue my reading though. My aim is to accept it, but of course not convert or practise. Since my reading on the Baha’i faith and even in search for clarifying myself toward Christianity I have had strange experiences which I've posted on here.

 

[farhan]

but this is a faith which Islam gave birth to

well according to my best knowledge , this claim is very wrong .

 

[Postmaster]

They don't allow alcohol drinking like Islam... ect ect. Islam and Christianity were born from Judaism. The founders of Baha'i faith were all at one point Muslim and that's not forgetting the first disciple of the bab which was a descendant of Muhammad. I'm not saying it the same religion it in fact it is extremely unique but you could say in a religious sense that it came out of Islam. If this faith is god given for the whole world to unite and live in peace, I can't see westerners giving up Alcohol. Like I mentioned before this faith is a stepping stone for greater things to come, or at least for us in the west whom are behind And it takes something greater. Last time we got Christ who greatly changed the west for better till today and this religion is all over the world, when they had already got Zoroaster 1500 years before Might be too pesimistic, but did you see all them people at the vatican? Whos going tell them that all religions are the same? I'm sure God must have a plan, God is within us.

 

[9Harmony]

Hi Postmaster,

I understand how you could be taken aback by this. But it's important to understand that there is ALOT of misinformation out there.

A couple of the Bab's followers made an attempt on the life of the Shah, they felt they needed to do something because he was responsible for executing their Beloved Bab. This attempt was completely at odds with the Bab's teachings. But we all know that followers of all religions can & do, do things completely contrary to the teachings they claim to follow.

Just now, thinking about this, this attempt may have been necessary to facilitate the course of events. It was because of this attempt, that Baha'u'llah, who at that time, was an ardent follower of the Bab, was imprisoned in the Siya'h-Chal (The Black Pit), which is where Baha'u'llah received His mission and realized who He was.

One of the best resources I've read about the History of the Faith, is a 4 volumn series entitled, "The Revelation of Baha'u'llah", it covers the entire span of His 40 year mission, including all the circumstances around these events. It goes in depth into when He wrote each Tablet and the circumstances around each one. (I don't think this is available online, but if you live in a large city, the local Baha'i's may have them to loan out, or even the local library, if not they may be able to get them on inner-library loan.)

I think you may also really benefit from reading 'The Kitab-i-Iqan' (The Book of Certitude), it was written by Baha'u'llah in response to a letter from the Bab's uncle. His uncle wanted to know if the Bab was really the promiised One of all religions. Baha'u'llah basically explains the history of religion. Remember it is written to a Muslim, so mostly addresses those concerns, but also weaves other religions throughout. It is a very powerful book. (This one is available online here: http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KI/ )

It may also assist you to gain a better understanding of Islam. You mentioned you've really had a low opinion of it, can you tell me where those opinions stem from? Were you told this by people who believed Islam is wrong? Then of course you are going to think that. That is why in this day, it is incumbent on us, to investigate the truth for ourselves, we should not simply accept what anyone tells us, we are completely capable to investigate anything we want, the truth is out there, just sometimes it takes a little effort to find.

One of my all time favorite quotes is by Ralph Waldo Emerson:

"our eyes cannot see the things that stare us in the face, until the hour arrives that the mind is ripened, then we behold them, and the time when we saw it not is like a dream..."

I can personally attest to the truth of this statement.

Just remember to remain open at all times. Ask God to guide you, He will not let you down. Just have faith and you will be guided to what's right for you, whatever that is.

Have a great weekend!

Loving Greetings, Amy

 

[kiwimac]

The problem, Amy, is that the "Revelation of Baha'u'llah" was written by Adib Taherzadeh, a Baha'i. What Postmaster is looking for is neutral sources neither pro nor anti baha'i.

Its that whole independent search thing.

Kiwimac

 

[9Harmony]

Hi farhan,

Postmaster said:

but this is a faith which Islam gave birth to

well according to my best knowledge , this claim is very wrong .

The way I see it is that the Baha'i Faith has it's roots in Islam the same way Christianity has it's roots in Judaism.

The Bab and Baha'u'llah were both raised Muslim, just as Jesus grew up Jewish.

Does that help?

 

[9Harmony]

The problem, Amy, is that the "Revelation of Baha'u'llah" was written by Adib Taherzadeh, a Baha'i. What Postmaster is looking for is neutral sources neither pro nor anti baha'i.

Its that whole independent search thing.

Kiwimac

you are correct.

one of the first books I read was "The Baha'i Faith, an Emerging Global Religion", it was written by 2 non-Baha'i's, I don't remember their names. But it seemed to be accurate for the most part. I used to have it, but I loaned it out and never got it back, or I could tell you the authors.

Have a great weekend!

edited to add P.S. I would still recommend the "Kitab-i-Iqan" though, Baha'u'llah's own words speak for themselves.

 

[lunamoth]

you are correct.

one of the first books I read was "The Baha'i Faith, an Emerging Global Religion", it was written by 2 non-Baha'i's, I don't remember their names. But it seemed to be accurate for the most part. I used to have it, but I loaned it out and never got it back, or I could tell you the authors.

Have a great day!

I agree its a good introduction book but I think the authors are Baha'i,

William S. Hatcher and J. Douglas Martin.

peace,
lunamoth

 

[9Harmony]

I agree its a good introduction book but I think the authors are Baha'i,

William S. Hatcher and J. Douglas Martin.

peace,
lunamoth

hmmm...i think you're right. They are Baha'i, at least they are now. I read it 11 or 12 years ago, i must be thinking of the introduction or comments about the book from people who aren't. I remember some kind of association in my mind with that book and non-Baha'i's, i dunno. sorry about that.

 

[arthra]

Some notes on sources and Baha'i subjects:

wikipedia.org states that Bahá'u'lláh had 3 wives and also Babi's tried to assassinate the Persian king and because Bahá'u'lláh was one of the followers and although never had anything to do with it, they imprisoned him. To me this is extremely controversial and also found out that up 25 people claimed to the person the Bab said was coming. Also So, I find with this research I can not accept this religion. I was just wondering some of the views of people on this forum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%E1%27u%27ll%E1h%27s_family#Controversy_and_Confusion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%E1'u'll%E1h#Legitimacy_of_Bah.E1.27u.27ll.E1h.27s_claim

surely no way I can accpet such a religion and had no idea.

Hello Postmaster!

Just read your post and if you'd like to base whether or not you accept Baha'u'llah or the Baha'i faith on the basis of a wikipedia article that's your business...

Some of the sources used in the article include:

* "History and Doctrines of the Babi Movement", Maulana Muhammad Ali; Lahore, India. 1933 (http://aaiil.org/text/books/mali/historydoctrinesbabimovement/historydoctrinesbabimovement.shtml)

I have read Maulana Muhammad Ali's article in the past and basically he was an apologist of the Ahmaddiyih sect of Islam in Lahore. He is biased in that he accepts Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as the Mahdi and regards Baha'is as heretics from Islam. Ahmaddiyihs themselves are split between the Lahore branch and the Qadiyan.

Most Moslems regard Ahmaddiyihs of both camps as heretical as well.

You will not find by the way any pamphlets or books authorized by Baha'is that attack the Ahmaddiyih movement but there are books by Ahmaddiyih's that attack Baha'i, this should gve you something to reflect about. Baha'is don't attack other religions.

* Ahmad Kasravi, Bahai-ism (published in Persian on www.kasravi.info)

Kasravi was a Shiah clergyman. He is known for his history of the Iranian Constitutional movement. He founded the Azaadegan party

Baha'is have always taken a neutral nonpartisan position on political matters.

My point is that it would be very naive to expect a religion with a hundred and sixty year history especially emerging in Iran of the mid nineteenth century not to have some detractors.

Recall that in it's early years of the Babi movement there were some twenty thousand martyrs and today the Baha'i faith is essentially still outlawed in the nation of its birth.

If you want a faith that is without controversy then my own personal reaction is that any faith worth it's salt is going to have many detractors and opponents. The key and ultimate criteria is whether in your heart God has spoken to you. The greater number of enemies it has there is probably some truth in it that makes it so spiritually powerful that it must be suppressed.... so think about that.

There were several claimants to the title of "Him Whom God would make manifest" made by the Bab. If you ever read Josephus you'll note that there were fifteen claimants noted to be the Messiah and Jesus was not mentioned among them.

So the mere fact that there were several claimants to be Messiah has not in the long run affected the growth and spiritual developement of Christianity over the centuries and my point is that the mere number of claimants to be "Him Whom God should make manifest" has not diminished or in any way affected the acceptance of Baha'u'llah and the developement of our Faith either.

Baha'u'llah having three wives is a new one that i haven't heard as much of an issue before. People make the complaint that Prophet Muhammad had several wives as well. Abraham had at least three wives and concubines and Soloman well, we would loose count. It is true that at the time Baha'u'llah lived and in the culture He was in, men could have four wives and concubines. If you hired a servant and she was in the house alone with you as a man you were expected to "marry" her. Baha'u'llah has never been accused of having any lustful appetites even by His worst enemies. It is only today in our Western culture where people's marraiges last on the average of only two years that eyebrows are raised about a foreign culture where polygamy was practised. I have heard our western style of marriage called "serial polygamy".

For your information though, Baha'is practise monogamy and our marriages can only occur when all living parents voluntary accept the marraige, thus we are laying a foundation for a stronger social bond supported by the extended family members.

So bear these things in mind in your continued study.

- Art

 

[arthra]

On alcohol:

Hello again my dear friend Postmaster!

I think your comment:

"If this faith is god given for the whole world to unite and live in peace, I can't see westerners giving up Alcohol."

was interesting....

It may be that alcohol for you is an integral part of the culture you live in... I can assure you though that alcohol as a legalized drug has many downsides and i will not bother here to site statistical studies but in my experience as a career social worker I have found alcohol abuse to be one of the greatest causes of social disintegration and loss of life through accidents and long term illnesses. So how accepting alcohol use can be related to the question of building world peace is to me to be a little "befuddling". For Baha'is alcohol is forbidden unless prescribed by a doctor for health reasons. I have met many people who are struggling to free themselves from alcohol abuse in the United States and for them it is comforting that our Faith forbids the use of alcohol.

 

[farhan]

HI ,

Postmaster , I dont think wikipedia is such a good thing that U should accuse some religion or change your religion just on the basis of its articles . I think U should read some decent books about that religion . For bahai I think Kitab-e-Iqan ( or kitab-e-aqdas ) would be a good start . For Islam , well dont go to a " refutall of christian accusations" kind of site . They use very strong language b/c strong language is used on them . I would say read Quran , or some Sufi literature . Sira books ( life of Mohammad ) have been very badly ( & sometimes wrongly ) translated in englsh .

And by the way , no religion is nasty , false ?? well that depends on your frame of reference .

They don't allow alcohol drinking like Islam

Well alcohol is not allowed in a lot of religions . U should ask some hindu or buddh ( who R practicing their religion ) about it . And as arthra said , U might see its ill-effects all over the world . Its one of the biggest cause of death , leading to athereosclerosis & liver cirrhosis . & there R psychological/social problems too .

The way I see it is that the Baha'i Faith has it's roots in Islam the same way Christianity has it's roots in Judaism.

The Bab and Baha'u'llah were both raised Muslim, just as Jesus grew up Jewish.

Does that help?

There R 2 sets of teachings in every religion . The core beliefs & deeds . And deeds R the things that R almost the same in every religion . No religion would say that U should steal or rape . The things that make every religion different is their core beliefs . That is diferent in every religion , b/c thats the thing that make each of the reloigions unique .

So , yes bahai faith might have taken some teachings from Islam . But then Sikhism also took teachings of hinduism, buddhism, & Islam . U cant say sikhism originated from hinduism just because guru nanak was a hindu . Similarly christianity is very different from Judaism . Buddha started his life as a hindu .Ahmadis also say they R muslims but all muslims agree that they R non-muslims .

Peace

 

[Postmaster]

The Alcohol industry is a billion pound market, the Mediterranean lives off it, where it be a glass of red wive with your meal which has very good health benifits, it has been like so for thousands of years. I originate from a divided country, where the Turks have the north part of Cyprus, the cultural difference is massive, we would be enjoying a drink of wive which is even given to us in the Church as Christs Blood whereas in the north they don't even sell the stuff. If God knew what he was doing I'm sure he would have left the alcohol issue as a not preferred but not forbidden law, or even within reason law or even not mention alcohol at all. Have we seen the cultural domination of Islam hijack Gods message or are we still awaiting Gods messenger? What’s my family going to do with all there vine fields they use for producing wine?

Maybe the Baha'i faith was created by nothing more then sinfull yet holy saints.

 

[kiwimac]

PM,

Don't be frightened to ask the questions, answers will ONLY come as questions are asked. Read widely from books authored by Baha'is, non-Bahai's, ex-bahai's and folk who disapprove of the Bahai's just on general principles.

I come from the POV of an ex-baha'i so, of course, I carry baggage about aspects of the faith but I would say that, generally speaking, there is no harm in it.

Kiwimac

 

[BruceDLimber]

Hi, Postmaster!

There are several things you should be aware of before you rush to condemn Baha'u'llah or the Baha'i Faith, I think:

It is true that Baha'u'llah had three wives. But it must be remembered that He grew up as a Muslim, and Islam allows four wives.

In fact, the second and third wives were widows of acquaintances of His. You need to remember that in that time and culture, an unattached widow was very much at risk of starving in the street, and it was therefore the custom to marry widows in order to provide them with a home and shelter (since they weren't allowed to live in the household of an unrelated man not their husband); and this is in fact what Baha'u'llad did. Granted, this is different from the custom here, but it was really done as an act of mercy.

It is true that several Babis did try to attack and murder opponents, but Baha'u'llah explicitly condemned them for this! Indeed, He said explicitly ~External enemies cannot harm this faith. What can harm it (and ME) is the actions of those who claim to be my followers, yet commit acts such as this that are forbidden!~

As to the poisoning, Baha'u'llah's half-brother was extremely jealous of Him and did indeed try to poison HIm. The accusation that the reverse happened is merely a lie invented by opponents to slander Baha'u'llah and the Baha'i Faith. The fact that Baha'u'llah was the one poisoned is demonstrated by the fact that though He survived, for the rest of HIs life His handwriting showed a tremor left by the damage to His body (and we have the originals of His writings so that this can be amply demonstrated!).

These are the facts about the matters you raise, and I hope they'll encourage you to investigate all this further! It would truly be tragic if you didn't solely because of lies made by opponents....

My regards,

Bruce

 

[Postmaster]

These conclusions you come to are by far reasonable and I do understand and thought about this reasoning myself.. But my main argument is this faith may have been created by false prophets, the east doesn't drink alcohol and as we know there can be massive amounts of problems relating to alcohol, but were mainly talking about western Europe and the united states, in south Europe we enjoy alcohol whilst celebrating and even within the Church and to many people it's a form of BREAD and by that I mean making a living from it. If this is GOD Almighty’s next message for unity, it's just not going to work, which to me further shows it's a false message. A god given message wouldn't mistake this issue. Further more, the kind of miracles claimed by Christianity hasn't been performed in this religion. I know there is an opposing reason for almost everything that is said including the miracle one but these written miracles are still serviving as proof for people today by the bible However the alcohol one to me is proof of a false message. How can we be all but one nation? How do we mix oil with water?

 

[9Harmony]

.. But my main argument is this faith may have been created by false prophets...

This is something you need to decide for yourself. I too had similar concerns, I was very cautious, I didn't want to be deceived. And you know the conclusion I came to. And now 12 years later, I still have not found any reason to doubt.

...the east doesn't drink alcohol and as we know there can be massive amounts of problems relating to alcohol, but were mainly talking about western Europe and the united states, in south Europe we enjoy alcohol whilst celebrating and even within the Church and to many people it's a form of BREAD and by that I mean making a living from it. If this is GOD Almighty’s next message for unity, it's just not going to work, which to me further shows it's a false message. A god given message wouldn't mistake this issue...QUOTE]

No, actually we're talking about all of humanity. And you are right God wouldn't make mistakes. It seems you are trying to make God conform to what you think should happen? The thing is, this is not something that will probably occur in our lifetime. The message Baha'u'llah brought is going to carry us through the next 800-1000 years. And it is quite possible that over that time, all of humanity will finally recognize that alcohol is not beneficial to us.

... Further more, the kind of miracles claimed by Christianity hasn't been performed in this religion. I know there is an opposing reason for almost everything that is said including the miracle one but these written miracles are still serviving as proof for people today by the bible

There are many, many miracles within the Baha'i Faith. It's just that we don't use them to claim proof of this Revelation. But they are there if you want to search for them. One of the most prominent ones that comes to mind, is the martyrdom of the Bab. Which if you haven't read about it yet, you can find it here. http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/nz/DB/db-42.html

Hey, and don't forget the scent of roses. That sounded like a small miracle to me.

However the alcohol one to me is proof of a false message. How can we be all but one nation? How do we mix oil with water? ...

Again, I will stress that this Revelation is going to span the next 800-1000 years. We are still approaching maturity as a species, we still have a long way to go. It's going to be a long agonizing process, but one I personally am looking forward to watching as it unfolds. I witness signs of it's unfoldment every day.

Have a wonderful week!

Loving Greetings, Amy