Somethings I just can't accpet..

I think regardless of the history of this faith and actions taken by its members should not affect the overall message it offers. I think it is ok to believe in the message it offers without subscribing to it 100%. By this I mean, what's wrong with believing what Bab said and saw; we are all one people and one religion under one God. This is true. It doesn't matter if you are a professing Bahai, Christian, Muslim or whatever. Whether people want to believe it or not we are one. The theme of Bahai is very beautiful and truthful. I believe in certain principles of Christianity Judaism and Islam but I don't practice any of them alone. Ilook for what I like and what speaks to me and leave the rest.

Postmaster, I think you are getting overworked about the alcohol thing. To say a religion would never work because the west can't stop drinking is absurd. And to say that God wouldn't orchestrate it like this because people drink is also absurd. Look at what Jesus preached and what Paul preached. Resurrection of the dead, body and blood of Christ etc. Do you think these were acceptable notions in those days? They still aren't today. The Jews were repulsed by blood and Paul ran around talking about the blood of Christ. according to Christians we have the messiah that the Jews missed when everything they say he did as a messiah ran contrary to the jewish belief in a messiah. No wonder they didn't follow.

Don't throw away the beaby with the bathwater.
 
God's blessings!

That's OK Postmaster...Thanks for your questions and I would say enjoy your search... If ever you have more questions you'd like to pose, please feel free and post them. We Baha'is love to discuss our Faith!

Or if you'd like to send a personal message to any of us, go ahead!

As to alcohol and it's future... I think it will be around quite a while but I'd like to think that it will be as maybe an alternative fuel and/or cleansing agent.

Have a great day!

- Art
 
Re: God's blessings!

The message Baha'u'llah brought is going to carry us through the next 800-1000 years. And it is quite possible that over that time, all of humanity will finally recognize that alcohol is not beneficial to us.
Just about anything can be lethal is taken in large quantities. Red wine has been discovered to have very good health benefits even if drank everyday with meals. I did smell the roses this I can assure everyone and I stand by it as some sort of phenomenon but I can't justify a faith by it, after all Im human this I realise and this I accpet, it would take something far greater so that I truely know that is a path I should take, me and my family have witnessed an icon of the weeping Virgin in our very house, oil coming from her eyes, happen on 2 occasions!. People experience all sorts of phenomenon’s including being able to smell members of there family long after there death. I search for a greater word, to me nothing as great as the Christ has been experienced by us yet and the second coming would be just as.. It's funny how the Baha'i faith does not forbid Nicotine although I believe it is discouraged. Which kills more alcohol or nicotine? Further more Islam dictates people on a far greater level then Christianity to the extent of illiberalism,the Bahai' faith go on to carry some trates and claim it's the second coming of Christ when it came from the anti-Chrsit? First time round Christ was drinking wine, and told people it was his blood. Now he's a non alcoholic? Di he become illiberal and dictative?
 
Re: God's blessings!

Postmaster,

Have you considered the possibility that along with all religious teachings comes a certain cultural, ethnic, regionality? It seems to me that every religion is like this. There are many great teachers, and you don't have to accept their folkways in order to learn from them or even to consider yourself their student.

Baha'u'lah lived in a culture that did not allow alcohol and so when he didn't allow alcohol, this wasn't a radical teaching. This wasn't something new he was bringing the world. He was simply continuing the cultural traditions of the place he was from. If instead he had forbidden orange juice, this would be something new. Then there would be reason to ask why. But he didn't.

You want to drink wine? Drink wine. You want to learn from Baha'u'lah? Learn from Baha'u'lah. Why should this be a reason for conflict?

Sorry. I just don't understand.

Dauer
 
Re: God's blessings!

Well thing is, one of the reasons I'm posting my arguments is to hearing an opposing one.

Second some claims made by the Baha'i faith don't add up. If it is indeed the new message of God what we find it's just as contradictory as the old ones. The big drawing factor for me towards this faith was that it was the seconding coming of Christ. I had to explore, I did to the point I thought in the future I might even convert.. I did my reading, and I found reasons to believe this false to a GREAT extent.

I have nothing bad to say about the Baha'i faith and in case anyone hasn't noticed I try my best to stay opened minded around here and in fact I contradict myself many times. I'm using this post for nothing more then to aid my discovery and in hope the vice versa for others. Who's to say the Bah'i faith is correct or wrong? Me and you of course. Is it not truth were looking for?
 
Re: God's blessings!

PM,

Myself, I make the distinction between truth and Truth. Truth with a capital T is something that's universally true for everybody, in every place. Like if it turns out Shintoism is right. But triumphalism is a real turn-off for me, and such finite Truth defies my understanding of the world also. On the other hand, truth with a lower-case t, that is, my personal meaning, this I do look for. I find it. I create it. Sometimes I just "be" with it. And I don't worry about whether it's Truth or not. I actually insist that it's not. That doesn't mean I won't form opinions about things, but when it comes to speculation I tend to just love my speculation without forming any concrete opinion.

On the other hand, I'll give concrete answers when someone demands it.

I honestly don't see why any of the things you've stated invalidates the teachings of the Bahai faith. Why can't you have your cake and eat it too?

Dauer
 
Re: God's blessings!

Why can't you have your cake and eat it too?
I often ask that question about my myself..

Well, it is agreed that there is one God by many faiths, one has to understand the idea of God and what he stands for so that they can also understand truth. If God is the purest and greatest being of existence of a positive force, then you want to get closer to it. It may well be that some religions are false, then again, may well not, who knows..? From a Christian point of view I'd say there is. Maybe there are different paths, some closer.
 
Re: God's blessings!

Well what if Baha'u'lah was really a secular ethicist, or philosopher? Or even a secular experientialist or mystic. And let's say he said some awesome stuff but in this case he was a complete misogynist. He spoke in his books at times of the evils of women and their inferiority. But all of his other insight was golden. The way he saw the world; the trees, people, the works of man, God, everything. It wasn't all exactly what everyone might agree with but some of it was just beautiful.

Is it possible to appreciate and gain from such a person, even venerate him?

If there is good to be had, why does it matter what other claims are being made by an individual? Does this cancel out the value of the good?

Dauer
 
Re: God's blessings!

Is it possible to appreciate and gain from such a person, even venerate him?
And that's one of things I appreciate from this faith :).. But you see one of his faults in my view was the way he spoke about God, so distantly, you see, the normal person does not use all his energy to establish a great faith, maybe the thoughts of a normal man are more potent because they are personal, his mistake was his view on God, he talks of God distantly, Jesus Christ taught me that God was closer and more person someone I can touch. The Baha’i View of God is almost Islamic more distant, the limited miracles documented, shows me something not as great, even Muhammad was limited in this sense compard to Christ. God is far greater then that, the founder of a true faith would have to literally be a son of God. And I know I've once again turned opinionated, I apologises for this, Christ did not need to use energy to give out his word, he was the energy and he came to perform a mission, hense he was called Christ and everything that was writen about him, tells us he performed Godly miracles and even if these miracles were the creation of man, one would question how a lie could create the largest relgion this world has ever had and put the whole question of God back into perspective.
 
Re: God's blessings!

You don't have to apologize for being opinionated. I don't like frozen peas!!! ;)

But how do you know there isn't some truth scattered in all religions, some of which might help you? As I was asking before, do you judge the wisdom and insight of a religious text in a different way than that of a secular text? What proves it?

It looks like the proof of a text for you is the story of its origin more than anything else, and also maybe your initial connection to the text from childhood, and maybe also experiences in relation to the text over time. Am I wrong? Close? Far? Need to be ammended?

Dauer
 
Re: God's blessings!

There can be no doubt that the picture of God in the Shi'ite / Neo-platonist faiths / philosophies can indeed be distant but equally the baha'i writings declare God to be closer that the blood in your veins.

Each religion views God in particular ways, these ways are shaped by the matrix of the faith, the world-views of the believers and of any administrative bodies which exist within them, a good example of this BTW is the divergence in views between Catholics in America and in Italy.

As well, being human, we tend to see God according to our own prejudices, the beliefs of our families and friends and of our society generally.

There is room for this divergence of vision, IMO. As a christian rapidly becoming a Zoroastrian I see Ahura Mazda's hand in all faiths and shades of belief.

Kiwimac
 
Closeness to God in Baha'i Writings & other subjects:

Thanks Dauer for your posts.

I don't think i've corresponded with you before... but you are most welcome here!

I was wondering if you'd care to share some of your sources for what you wrote?

"He spoke in his books at times of the evils of women and their inferiority."

How was Baha'u'llah in your mind a "complete misogynist"?

And for Postmaster:

Who wrote:

"his mistake was his view on God, he talks of God distantly"

Regarding closeness to God some quotes from the Hidden Words come to mind:

"O SON OF MAN! Veiled in My immemorial being and in the ancient eternity of My essence, I knew My love for thee; therefore I created thee, have engraved on thee Mine image and revealed to thee My beauty.

O SON OF MAN! I loved thy creation, hence I created thee. Wherefore, do thou love Me, that I may name thy name and fill thy soul with the spirit of life.

O SON OF BEING! Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant."

- From the Arabic "Hidden Words" revealed by Baha'u'llah
 
Man... Opium is a million dollar industry in Afghanistan, Iran & Pakistan . Cocaine,Marijuana is a million dollar industry in Cuba & other parts of Central America . Organ selling may be the only way to survive for a lott of africans . So should the true religion allow all of these b/c people cant live without it ??

Secondly , false prophets??Is there any unified definition for this . For Jews , every messenger after Moses is a false, for Christians , every messenger after Christ is false , for Muslims , every messenger after Mohammad is false . May be for hindus every messenger after Ram ( or Buddha ) is false . So how can U define a false prophet or a true religion ??

Thirdly , what gave U the idea that God is distant in Bahai or Islam . In Islam its said that God is nearer to U than your Juglar Vein , & he loves U more than 70 mothers . A lot of Sufis refer to God as beloved or Friend .

 
Re: Closeness to God in Baha'i Writings & other subjects:

arthra,

I should have been more clear. I wasn't talking about Baha'u'lah. I was creating a parallel situation with a secular individual because in my mind if there is something to be learned from a religious figure it is just the same as learning something from a secular individual. There is no need to convert to a religion in order to take from a wise individual's writings some wisdom and insight. Even if some of the things they say go completely go against a person's outlook on the world or their morals, I do not think that this should keep a person from benefiting that wisdom which does make sense to them. In the darkest age there will be people to speak of a brightness, but even their brightness will be spoken from the dark age. So they could quite possibly reflect the concerns and biases of their times.

So my question to PM has been this: Why does it matter that Baha'u'lah is against the consumption of alcohol? Why does it matter, even, if the way he speaks of God is a little different from the way you do? If you put your mind into that age, see through his eyes so to speak, you can soak up his wisdom and bring it back with you without becoming a Bahai. It could potentially make you a better Christian.

Dauer
 
Secondly , false prophets??Is there any unified definition for this .
A Person of divine nature, who can see visions ect.. That preaches a word of God that’s not supposed to . A person of divine nature that sins. I would consider myself in this category. You see God is in all of us, so really the Baha'i is a false prophecy from a Christian point of view. I have a 3rd eye, I posted many instances on this forum of my experiences, I used to try rationalise that they were merely my own creation, but sometimes it's hard to explain why you know your sister is going to fall ill, or an earthquake in going to occur ect.. I know one thing and that's that we are all creatures of GOD, and I know an other thing, were not GOD. The Baha'i faith say they didn't want there miracles documented, why not? Christ was the message, shepard, the son of God ect ect.. and he proved it. Further more, Chrsitianity is the largest religion in the world, what more can be said?
 
farhan,

you are incorrect about Judaism. The prophets contained in the books of the prophets are considered true prophets and I think some people in the writings are sometimes considered prophets too. Moses is considered the greatest prophet.

The definition of a false prophet in Judaism traditionally is based on Torah. If a person says something that does not come true, he is a false prophet. If a person says something in the name of another god, even if it comes true, he is a false prophet. If he says words that go against Torah, he is a false prophet. But that is a discussion for another thread.

Dauer
 
Re: Closeness to God in Baha'i Writings & other subjects:

dauer said:
arthra,

I should have been more clear. I wasn't talking about Baha'u'lah. I was creating a parallel situation with a secular individual because in my mind if there is something to be learned from a religious figure it is just the same as learning something from a secular individual. There is no need to convert to a religion in order to take from a wise individual's writings some wisdom and insight. Even if some of the things they say go completely go against a person's outlook on the world or their morals, I do not think that this should keep a person from benefiting that wisdom which does make sense to them. ....

Dauer

Thanks for clarifying that Dauer and i kind of also gathered what you were saying.

i hope you feel welcome here to post again soon!

- Art
:cool:
 
Miracles

Postmaster wrote:

A Person of divine nature, who can see visions ect.. That preaches a word of God that’s not supposed to . A person of divine nature that sins. I would consider myself in this category. You see God is in all of us, so really the Baha'i is a false prophecy from a Christian point of view.

My comment:

I'm not sure how that "hangs together" Postmaster can you elaborate because your statement:

"You see God is in all of us, so really the Baha'i is a false prophecy from a Christian point of view."

I have trouble understanding your logic there.

Postmaster:

I have a 3rd eye, I posted many instances on this forum of my experiences, I used to try rationalise that they were merely my own creation, but sometimes it's hard to explain why you know your sister is going to fall ill, or an earthquake in going to occur ect.. I know one thing and that's that we are all creatures of GOD, and I know an other thing, were not GOD.

Comment:

Baha'is believe you can have spiritual experiences and i think the way you described smelling the roses earlier was really quite beautiful.

Postmaster:

The Baha'i faith say they didn't want there miracles documented, why not? Christ was the message, shepard, the son of God ect ect.. and he proved it. Further more, Chrsitianity is the largest religion in the world, what more can be said?

My reply:

Now Postmaster you may recall how the Lord Jesus was confronted by people who wanted a "sign". A sign is like a proof or for them a miracle... Do you recall what Jesus replied?

When Jesus was tempted in the wilderness the devil suggested He turn the stones into loaves because He was hungry... What was Jesus reply?

And so on....

The problem today is that people want a flashy magic show to verify their religious experience...well, that probably isn't going to happen. We're already very jaded with so many technological "miracles" these days so how's more of th same going to change our hearts?

For Baha'is the old time miracles are not in the forefront, but rather the change in hearts that we've seen in people around us. We believe miracles can occur but they are most relevant to the people experiencing them... and there are not readily or easily proved to other people... So the miracle is a personal spiritual experience for you.... If a scientist were to be skeptical though he could probably explain to you in scientific terms how this occurred or that you were hallucinating. So the miracle is in your personal spiritual experience and is not something that will necessarily be proof to any one else.

See an interesting article about the Baha'i views on miracles:

http://bahai-library.com/books/miracles/bahai.html

:)
 
I think perhaps that the Ba'Hai faith learned from Christianity's mistakes; writing down miracles. Not to minimize them but some of the things written in the Bible are held to such literal standards(when I think many are really symbollic) by its members that there is no room for any alternate interpretation. these interpretations of scripture have grown to such extremes that you have dozens of different denominations not to mention the disagreement of the meanings of these scriptures between its own members. To see this go take a look at the christian boards. This has resulted in part to some of christianities excusiveness of others and the rejection of other forms of spiritual experiences. I think it better to leave interpretation of spritual gifts and ideas as well as divine inspiration open. This way we avoid thinking and perceiving everything from within a box.
 
People like Nostradames and other people with the ability to foresee the future have also had a reputation of healing but have never started a religion. Had someone like Nostradames started a religion, he'd had probably been very sucessfull. We are all Gods creatures and some of us do have divine gifts. Mostly our energies are focused on other things, like work, sport, science, philosophy and webmastry ect ect. Even long after Christianity we still see the miracles going on. There are many documented, many of the most famous ones are people being miraculously cured when they are close to death from an illness and this is even going on as the Baha'i faith is established. I would consider the new testament as literal truth and not symbolic.
 
Back
Top