Was Jesus being mean when he said:

[Quahom1]

I think he had a thing about Catholics, too. Something about them not being Jewish enough, as I recall.

Perhaps, but I do not ban people...

 

[Abogado del Diablo]

Perhaps, but I do not ban people...

I don't know why he was banned either. I just remember the person who started this thread seemed really angry to me.

 

[Quahom1]

I don't know why he was banned either. I just remember the person who started this thread seemed really angry to me.

This particular thread? Or another thread?

 

[RubySera_Martin]

The scripture itself wasn't considered mean, but the context in which it was originally used was...

Are you saying we newbies should see it as a quarrel from the past and ignore this thread??? But this doesn't make sense. It would have been deleted long ago if that were the case. I guess I just don't understand.

 

[Abogado del Diablo]

This particular thread? Or another thread?

This was one of several s/he wrote all around the same time. I think this was deemed to intend to be offensive by most because of other things this same poster had written.

 

[Quahom1]

Are you saying we newbies should see it as a quarrel from the past and ignore this thread??? But this doesn't make sense. It would have been deleted long ago if that were the case. I guess I just don't understand.

Then perhaps we should explore it. Please continue...

v/r

Q

 

[Quahom1]

This was one of several s/he wrote all around the same time. I think this was deemed to intend to be offensive by most because of other things this same poster had written.

Well, perhaps those posting now, have not the intention of being offensive...time will tell...

v/r

Q

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

Why, yes Chris, it was a great slap in the face of Jews...and the poster was (for many reasons), eventually banned...

v/r

Q

O.K., but who else but the Jews can John be talking about here?

Again:

There is no judgment awaiting those who trust him. But those who do not trust him have already been judged for not believing in the only Son of God. Their judgment is based on this fact: The light from heaven came into the world, but they loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil. They hate the light because they want to sin in the darkness. They stay away from the light for fear their sins will be exposed and they will be punished.

I mean, who else "rejected the light" and "loved darkness more than light"? At the point of John writing this the Jews, for all intents and purposes as far as anyone could reckon, were toast. The temple had been destroyed, Massada had happened... their fate was sealed as far as John could see.

Just looking at immediate context.

Chris

 

[Quahom1]

O.K., but who else but the Jews can John be talking about here?

Again:

I mean, who else "rejected the light" and "loved darkness more than light"? At the point of John writing this the Jews, for all intents and purposes as far as anyone could reckon, were toast. The temple had been destroyed, Massada had happened... their fate was sealed as far as John could see.

Just looking at immediate context.

Chris
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In accordance with scripture...every one of us. Yep, we're "Toast", if we continue to reject... sorry dude, that is the Christian way. Hey I didn't invent the truth, I just believe it. And I sleep better at night.

v/r

Q

edit: What in "God's Green earth", do I have to lose by believing in what Jesus said?...mean or not?

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

In accordance with scripture...every one of us. Yep, we're "Toast", if we continue to reject... sorry dude, that is the Christian way. Hey I didn't invent the truth, I just believe it. And I sleep better at night.

v/r

Q

edit: What in "God's Green earth", do I have to lose by believing in what Jesus said?...mean or not?

Maybe I shoulda read the whole thread. I think the context here is that the Jews had their chance to believe but they chose not to. I mean, I think that's what John is saying. John is different from the synoptics, he starts out with a very Greek idea about Jesus being the Logos. It's kind of a more grown-up, more hellenistic gospel thing than what Mat, Mark, and the Doc put out, and really gets closer to Paul in an interesting, almost evolutionary but cyclical way.

Chris

 

[Quahom1]

Maybe I shoulda read the whole thread. I think the context here is that the Jews had their chance to believe but they chose not to. I mean, I think that's what John is saying. John is different from the synoptics, he starts out with a very Greek idea about Jesus being the Logos. It's kind of a more grown-up, more hellenistic gospel thing than what Mat, Mark, and the Doc put out, and really gets closer to Paul in an interesting, almost evolutionary but cyclical way.

Chris

Chris,

I did not mean in any fashion to challenge your particular belief. I merely pointed out what "I" believe.

As for the tax collector, the story teller for children of all ages, the "physician", and the "philosopher", well most of the time I prefer John.

However, the other three appease and catch my thinking when I am bent in their direction...

I/we can be any and all of the four at any and all times. It simply depends on where we stand in our own lives, which I think, helps us determine which Gospel is a resonant frequency within us...

does that make sense?

v/r

Q

 

[Abogado del Diablo]

Well, perhaps those posting now, have not the intention of being offensive...time will tell...

v/r

Q

I'm pretty sure they don't. Though the topic is bound to be contentious (which is, I think, what the original poster was aiming for).

 

[kenod]

Maybe I shoulda read the whole thread. I think the context here is that the Jews had their chance to believe but they chose not to. I mean, I think that's what John is saying. John is different from the synoptics, he starts out with a very Greek idea about Jesus being the Logos. It's kind of a more grown-up, more hellenistic gospel thing than what Mat, Mark, and the Doc put out, and really gets closer to Paul in an interesting, almost evolutionary but cyclical way.
Chris

There are some who challenge the notion that John's is a "hellenistic gospel". His book, The Revelation, draws very heavily on OT symbolism, and it seems more likely to me that in his gospel, John was using Jewish concepts. To find the true meaning of the Logos, I believe we need to look into the OT Scriptures, not Greek philosophy. The Word in the OT is not presented as a "person" separate and distinct from other beings who are also God (Ps 107:20, Is 55:11).

This is an interesting article, but rather complex in its linguistic analysis - I suggest reading the last paragraph:
http://www.bible-researcher.com/lightfoot.html

Again, the last paragraph is more accessible in this article:
http://www.bible-researcher.com/hebraisms.html

 

[seattlegal]

O.K., but who else but the Jews can John be talking about here?

Again:

There is no judgment awaiting those who trust him. But those who do not trust him have already been judged for not believing in the only Son of God. Their judgment is based on this fact: The light from heaven came into the world, but they loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil. They hate the light because they want to sin in the darkness. They stay away from the light for fear their sins will be exposed and they will be punished.

I mean, who else "rejected the light" and "loved darkness more than light"? At the point of John writing this the Jews, for all intents and purposes as far as anyone could reckon, were toast. The temple had been destroyed, Massada had happened... their fate was sealed as far as John could see.

Just looking at immediate context.

Chris

Um, just a guess here, but I think he might have been referring to those who trust that their status of being Jews as being the means by which their salvation was guaranteed...

 

[cyberpi]

For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. God did not send his Son into the world to condemn it, but to save it. There is no judgment awaiting those who trust him. But those who do not trust him have already been judged for not believing in the only Son of God. Their judgment is based on this fact: The light from heaven came into the world, but they loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil. They hate the light because they want to sin in the darkness. They stay away from the light for fear their sins will be exposed and they will be punished. John 3:16-20

A real crime is to leave out the last verse:
John 3:-21 But he that DOES TRUTH comes to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."

Who could not trust and believe Jesus (pbuh)? Perhaps someone who has not met him yet?

 

[Quahom1]

A real crime is to leave out the last verse:
John 3:-21 But he that DOES TRUTH comes to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."

Who could not trust and believe Jesus (pbuh)? Perhaps someone who has not met him yet?

I believe those who have not met Him are given "grace", in such circumstances. Those who have met Him yet choose to reject Him, have no such "grace".

However, I wish to point out that it is not up to us to make that judgement as to who knows and accepts Christ, and who rejects Christ. That is Jesus' choice, alone.

v/r

Q

 

[mee]

Dear Dor,

Thank you for stating that this belief has come from man and from the interpretations of man. We must subject all things to the "light" of the scriptures and hold fast that which is true.

how true that is, we should hold to the scriptures just as the faithful ones have over the years , matthew 24;45-47 it leads to great blessings and responsibilty. flashes of enlightenment from Jehovah . no darkness for faithful ones , but unfaithful ones are in darkness, no longer does Jehovah shine his light on them , he has rejected them. matthew 8;12

yes faithfulness leads to great things from Jehovah, and then these ones can share those blessings with others. yes many things are happening in these the last days.
When Jesus’ presence began in 1914, did he find a group of anointed Christians who were faithfully dispensing food at the proper time? He certainly did. This group could be clearly identified because of the fine fruitage that it was producing. (Matthew 7:20) yes its all happening in this time of the end,enlightenment indeed.
.

 

[Dor]

When Jesus’ presence began in 1914, did he find a group of anointed Christians who were faithfully dispensing food at the proper time? He certainly did. This group could be clearly identified because of the fine fruitage that it was producing. (Matthew 7:20) yes its all happening in this time of the end,enlightenment indeed.
.

Quick question Mee where was he hiding if his presence didnt begin till 1914.

 

[jiii]

For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. God did not send his Son into the world to condemn it, but to save it. There is no judgment awaiting those who trust him. But those who do not trust him have already been judged for not believing in the only Son of God. Their judgment is based on this fact: The light from heaven came into the world, but they loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil. They hate the light because they want to sin in the darkness. They stay away from the light for fear their sins will be exposed and they will be punished. John 3:16-20

By highlighting the line about judgement, I assume that your question is essentially directed toward that sentiment. For my part, I will say that this is only really 'mean' if you interpret it as the vindictive qualities of a God personality.

What Jesus is saying here, is that those that do not "trust him", also known as "having faith", are already judged...he does not, however, actually indicate who or what is doing the judging. This is a crucial consideration. Look at this quote in Matthew (6:28-6:34):

And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin: And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith? Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek: ) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

I supply this quotation in the hopes that one can see that what Jesus means when he says that one who "does not trust, is judged." The real vision of Jesus is expressed powerfully and concisely here. If a man cannot even be like the lilies, which are beautiful by their own nature without any struggling to be this or that, then what can he possibly achieve with his intentional effort? If one cannot trust oneself to God in the same way that a flower trusts itself unflinchingly and is always, therefore, beautiful, then he is most certainly already judged. Judged, that is, in the sense that he is limited from the very beginning no matter what path he chooses, because he is always only doing it with a part of himself, while the other part is always doubting and protesting. Fullness in his life is superficial, because he cannot see that God is not something to achieve or to possess. He is, rather, the realization that comes to you when you see that God is the very thing which you can never possess...just as that which makes the lilies truly beautiful is not known to either the lily or to the field.

Jesus goes on in the earlier quote to essentially state a fundamental blockage in "realizing God". He says that people enjoy the darkness because when they do something wrong in the dark, nobody sees it, not even themselves. Whereas if they were in the light, they would have to be totally aware of it, and everybody else would see it, too. This is not a complex idea, really. Yet, I do think that it is appropriate to our lives even today.

The person that truly believes that they are so terrible and so sinful and so downright evil that they must lurk about in the dark so as not to even look at themselves is really in a state of the most wicked bondage. He has judged himself, you see, and finding himself guilty he has locked himself in the dungeon. He has decided in his idea of ideas, in his innermost feelings, that he is somehow inherently wrong, and he condemns himself to a life of carrying this burden, which is the antithesis of the absolute affirmation of life that is God. This is because in committing himself to the darkness, he is also committing God to the darkness. This may certainly seem like a gross simplification, but I conclude with a quote by psychologist Carl Jung in hopes that it may expound upon this:

Perhaps this sounds very simple, but simple things are always the most difficult. In actual life it requires the greatest art to be simple, and so acceptance of oneself is the essence of the moral problem and the acid test of one's whole outlook on life. That I feed the beggar, that I forgive an insult, that I love my enemy in the name of Christ - all these are undoubtedly great virtues. What I do unto the least of my brethren, that I do unto Christ. But what if I should discover that the least among them all, the poorest of all beggars, the most impudent of all offenders, yea the very fiend himself - that these are within me, and that I myself stand in need of my own kindness, that I myself am the enemy who must be loved - what then? Then, as a rule, the whole truth of Christianity is reversed: there is no more talk of love and long-suffering; we say to the brother within us, "Raca," and condemn and rage against ourselves. We hide him from the world; we deny ever having met this least among the lowly in ourselves, and had it been God himself who drew near to us in this despicable form, we should have denied him a thousand times before a single cock had crowed.​

 

[mee]

Quick question Mee where was he hiding if his presence didnt begin till 1914.

if we look to the bible we can see that he wasnt hiding at all. but in 1914 he was given kingship of the heavenly kingdom goverment Daniel 7;13-14 .yes the kingdom is now well and truely set up, Daniel 2;44 and our king Jesus christ is making his presence known . yes thrilling times indeed . dont miss the signs , its all happening.