Religion as an excuse for war?

Quahom1 said:
I did not imply that you did. What I will point out is the torn decisions that we have to make (here in America). We the citizens hate war. Ok? We hate war. But once committed, we are the most dangerous people on earth. Maybe that is what you and Wil are worried about. How can I say that? Simple, we are the only people on earth to ever drop an atomic bomb...twice, with no warning.

Everyone else threatens, and uses God as their backup (God will propel us forward). Last I checked, the US was the only nation to unleash "God's" power, for good cause (we thought). And it caused over 140,000 immediate deaths...

I'd say we are a force to be reckoned with, and so far, God hasn't punished us for our choices.

I also think we are stupid, considering that we lost more people in 9-11 than in World War II's Pearl Harbor, and our citizens are lack luster in the danger that is at our front door...

Mark my words, our time of testing is come, and 2,000,000 military is not enough. Every citizen's contribution is going to be required.

Right now, we are living on borrowed grace...

v/r

Q
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I will be the first to admit that I'm not the one to know if this is true but I do believe that God doesn't necessarily punish us here in this life on this earth. Rather it is when we stand before him at judgement after we've left our earthly bodies, in the after life. Not saying I'm right but that is my understanding of the Christian faith.
On the flip side maybe he has punished "us" we don't know how god would punish, what methods he may use. According to my (limited though it may be) understanding of the Christian faith we are not subject to the old "eye for an eye" thing anymore.
 
Ok, here I go again. Like my original post stated I do belive there's never a good reason for war. After much thought I thought I would elaborate on that statement. Namely because of Q. Q you bring up some very good points and I think I may have failed to sufficiently acknowledge them. So, while I still believe that war is wrong and there's never a "good" reason for it I do want to say that despite how I feel about it there seems to be reason for it none the less. We as humans must tackle the decision of "turning the other cheek" vs. standing up for what's right, not letting tyranny rule the world and not letting innocent people be killed/opressed/tortured (among many other things). I guess in my previous posts I may have been unclear about the fact that I was just stating my opinion, not making a judgement call. Furthermore I was not stating my entire opinion. So there it is in a nutshell.
 
manytrailsonepath said:
Ok, here I go again. Like my original post stated I do belive there's never a good reason for war. After much thought I thought I would elaborate on that statement. Namely because of Q. Q you bring up some very good points and I think I may have failed to sufficiently acknowledge them. So, while I still believe that war is wrong and there's never a "good" reason for it I do want to say that despite how I feel about it there seems to be reason for it none the less. We as humans must tackle the decision of "turning the other cheek" vs. standing up for what's right, not letting tyranny rule the world and not letting innocent people be killed/opressed/tortured (among many other things). I guess in my previous posts I may have been unclear about the fact that I was just stating my opinion, not making a judgement call. Furthermore I was not stating my entire opinion. So there it is in a nutshell.
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I have never said war was right. I just said there are times when it is inevitable.

I don't like to fight to kill. But I will, if my nation, my people, my allies are in jeopardy. And all three are, today...

This is not ONE WORLD. Not yet. Until then, you will have heroes and saviors...

Babylon couldn't keep it together, Israel couldn't keep it together, USSR couldn't keep it together, and mayhap the US won't keep it together. But we were warned "It is a Federal republic, if you can keep it". There are those trying to keep it.

I will not harm the man who comes to my farm, unless he attempts to take over/harm/rule over my family...then all bets are off.

That is democracy, and all it entails...

v/r

Q
 
Quahom1 said:
I have never said war was right. I just said there are times when it is inevitable.

I don't like to fight to kill. But I will, if my nation, my people, my allies are in jeopardy. And all three are, today...

This is not ONE WORLD. Not yet. Until then, you will have heroes and saviors...

Babylon couldn't keep it together, Israel couldn't keep it together, USSR couldn't keep it together, and mayhap the US won't keep it together. But we were warned "It is a Federal republic, if you can keep it". There are those trying to keep it.

I will not harm the man who comes to my farm, unless he attempts to take over/harm/rule over my family...then all bets are off.

That is democracy, and all it entails...

v/r

Q
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I would have to admit that I (for the most part) agree with you Q, as much as I hate the idea of taking a life to preserve my own or the live(s) of those I hold dear, I again must admit that I probably would in the face of that reality. I like to sit here in my somewhat sheltered home and think that I would be able to "turn the other cheek", but the reality is if my wife or family were at stake I wouldn't hesitate to act in whatever way was needed to protect them. I THINK I would be able to at least come closer to turning the other cheek if it were just me at stake, but lacking the experience of that reality I don't think I can honestly answer that. I still don't know if it would be right to justify those actions with God/religion. In my heart of hearts I don't believe it's justifiable in God's eyes.
I do admire your arguments Q and (to me) it seems that you have good reason for the beliefs you have and the statements you make seem well thought out. In truth I feel as though I'm just a wee boy in some of the issues we've touched on and for me to be any more convicted than what I've put down here so far would be premature on my part. But that's why we're here right, to learn, grow and compare? One last thing I wanted to acknowledge is that I figured you weren't saying war was right Q, I was just re-itterating my stance when I said I still thought it was wrong, didn't mean to imply and I'm sorry if it sounded like I was.
 
manytrailsonepath said:
I would have to admit that I (for the most part) agree with you Q, as much as I hate the idea of taking a life to preserve my own or the live(s) of those I hold dear, I again must admit that I probably would in the face of that reality. I like to sit here in my somewhat sheltered home and think that I would be able to "turn the other cheek", but the reality is if my wife or family were at stake I wouldn't hesitate to act in whatever way was needed to protect them. I THINK I would be able to at least come closer to turning the other cheek if it were just me at stake, but lacking the experience of that reality I don't think I can honestly answer that. I still don't know if it would be right to justify those actions with God/religion. In my heart of hearts I don't believe it's justifiable in God's eyes.
I do admire your arguments Q and (to me) it seems that you have good reason for the beliefs you have and the statements you make seem well thought out. In truth I feel as though I'm just a wee boy in some of the issues we've touched on and for me to be any more convicted than what I've put down here so far would be premature on my part. But that's why we're here right, to learn, grow and compare? One last thing I wanted to acknowledge is that I figured you weren't saying war was right Q, I was just re-itterating my stance when I said I still thought it was wrong, didn't mean to imply and I'm sorry if it sounded like I was.
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No worries mate. Been around here long enough to show that I've never changed my stance on certain issues, and have learned to change on others.

I think that is growing up. And I do appreciate your candor. It gives me pause for thought, and contemplation. :D

v/r

Q
 
Quahom1 said:
No worries mate. Been around here long enough to show that I've never changed my stance on certain issues, and have learned to change on others.

I think that is growing up. And I do appreciate your candor. It gives me pause for thought, and contemplation. :D

v/r

Q
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"no worries mate." ??????
Q, you sound like a dinky di aussie,mate.
LOL
strewth,crikey etc
 
Quahom1 said:
We did not kill hundreds of thousands.
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Sorry Q I know your post was to Wil but I have to add my 2 pence worth.

Yes we did and are still doing so today. Just google Dublin and cluster bombs.

Quahom1 said:
Hussean killed hundreds of thousands.
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No he didn't, he killed tens of thousands and despite his killing sprees he managed to keep a country of waring factions at peace for a long time, everyone in this region knew that if you removed a dictator from Iraq civil war would break out. That is not to say he should have remained in power but what we have given the Iraqi people in his place is anything but demoracy.

Quahom1 said:
Don't blame the US and coalition for the all the deaths in Iraq. We didn't do it.
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No we didn't kill all the dead but our death toll is higher than anyone elses.

Quahom1 said:
Look to the insurgents...but you can't because they don't have an identity. Sucks don't it?
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Yes they do have names and identities and we know the names of the groups but like all insurgents they work behind masks and closed doors.

Quahom1 said:
Blaming uniformed men and women is STUPID.
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I only blame uniformed men and women for the torture, rapes and murders some have commited, the rest I blame on our governments and their greed.

So is it stupid to expect uniformed men and women to answer for torturing prisoners and taking photos of it, raping and murdering families to try to cover up the rapes?

Quahom1 said:
YOU aren't there, and have never been there.
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But I have been and in uniform too!!

Quite frankly Q your comments about you and your allies not being safe sounds like the usual US scare mongering propaganda - that's how we got in this mess in the first place. If you don't run around the world destroying countries and killing people for oil then what have you or your freedom got to fear from those people?
 
As mentioned in the previous post ,there was a group in the first century that established an international brotherhood in which it would have been unthinkable for one member to war against his brother or sister.

This was the Christian congregation, whose members in a very literal sense had beaten their swords into plowshares.

Today, while mankind as a whole can make no headway in abolishing war, there is again a group of people who have achieved this same remarkable goal. Who are they? I HAVE FOUND THEM:) by their fruits you will recognize those ones , :)AND MEE DID :)
 
Muslimwoman said:
Sorry Q I know your post was to Wil but I have to add my 2 pence worth.

Yes we did and are still doing so today. Just google Dublin and cluster bombs.



No he didn't, he killed tens of thousands and despite his killing sprees he managed to keep a country of waring factions at peace for a long time, everyone in this region knew that if you removed a dictator from Iraq civil war would break out. That is not to say he should have remained in power but what we have given the Iraqi people in his place is anything but demoracy.
No MW You aren't there and have no knowledge but what El Jazerra tells you. Don't dare tell me I am wrong. I have eye witnesses that counter your claims, and they live it day by day. Please do not insult me or mine.


No we didn't kill all the dead but our death toll is higher than anyone elses.



Yes they do have names and identities and we know the names of the groups but like all insurgents they work behind masks and closed doors.



I only blame uniformed men and women for the torture, rapes and murders some have commited, the rest I blame on our governments and their greed.

So is it stupid to expect uniformed men and women to answer for torturing prisoners and taking photos of it, raping and murdering families to try to cover up the rapes?



But I have been and in uniform too!!

Quite frankly Q your comments about you and your allies not being safe sounds like the usual US scare mongering propaganda - that's how we got in this mess in the first place. If you don't run around the world destroying countries and killing people for oil then what have you or your freedom got to fear from those people?
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Bunk. I've never killed a soul, but saved hundreds...and I'm the "dirty monster American" you are scathing about...
 
mee said:
As mentioned in the previous post ,there was a group in the first century that established an international brotherhood in which it would have been unthinkable for one member to war against his brother or sister.

This was the Christian congregation, whose members in a very literal sense had beaten their swords into plowshares.

Today, while mankind as a whole can make no headway in abolishing war, there is again a group of people who have achieved this same remarkable goal. Who are they? I HAVE FOUND THEM:) by their fruits you will recognize those ones , :)AND MEE DID :)
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Wrong. There was no brotherhood until the second century. Had there been a brotherhood in the first century, they would have fallen with the Jews on top of the mount.
 
Quahom1 said:
Bunk. I've never killed a soul, but saved hundreds...and I'm the "dirty monster American" you are scathing about...
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Don't take it personally Q, you chose protection, you chose Coast Guard. You are defense. Pre-emptive strike (funny last night we watched Antz and the Ant General got the support of the colony to perform a preemptive strike against the termites, the termites that had no intention of attacking the Antz!! cartoon made in 1998, must've been GWII's formative years)

Preemptive strike against a country that had nothing to do with 9/11 all the while still in bed with the Saudi's who glady make billions at >100 a barrel oil.
 
Quahom1 said:
Wrong. There was no brotherhood until the second century. Had there been a brotherhood in the first century, they would have fallen with the Jews on top of the mount.
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The early followers of Jesus Christ were zealous in spreading the Christian faith.


Writing in about 60 C.E. the Christian apostle Paul noted that already the "good news" had been "preached in all creation that is under heaven." (Col. 1:23) Christians by then had spread throughout many nations.


What did these Christians do when ‘nation rose against nation and kingdom against kingdom’ in war? (Matt. 24:7)
Did they join the armies of their particular nation and fight?
Did they kill fellow Christians living in other countries?

How did early Christians view Jesus’ instruction to "love one another," and to be "peaceable"? (John 13:34; Matt. 5:9)

Regarding this, Hastings’ renowned Encyclopædia of Religion and Ethics notes:
"The view was widely prevalent in the early Church that war is an organized iniquity with which the Church and the followers of Christ can have nothing to do.
​




So early Christians did honor Jesus teachings, they actually lived by them.


And they did not seek "loopholes," arguing that Christ did not specifically forbid being a soldier.

The German Protestant theologian Peter Meinhold wrote:
"While the New Testament is silent on the question whether Christians may or may not be soldiers and whether they must resign from the army when they become Christians, the old church took a stand in the issue.

Being a Christian and a soldier was considered irreconcilable.
​




So what was it that led early Christians away from fighting and killing? It was their religion, which was based firmly on the teachings of God’s Word the Bible!


thats how it is with JEHOVAHS WITNESSES as well.


For mee i have found the true christians , and it is JEHOVAHS WITNESSES

They imitate the example of the early Christians. Their religion is based firmly on God’s Word the Bible, and it is indeed leading them to peace and morality. :)







 
wil said:
Don't take it personally Q, you chose protection, you chose Coast Guard. You are defense. Pre-emptive strike (funny last night we watched Antz and the Ant General got the support of the colony to perform a preemptive strike against the termites, the termites that had no intention of attacking the Antz!! cartoon made in 1998, must've been GWII's formative years)

Preemptive strike against a country that had nothing to do with 9/11 all the while still in bed with the Saudi's who glady make billions at >100 a barrel oil.
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Saudis...you are right. Antz is a cartoon. My sons are Army (medic and ranger). They saved lives, and cried when lives were lost. MW thinks she cornered the market on pain and loss, because she is Muslim? She thinks America is the whore monger? Horse's ass.

What she FORGETS is that she is British, and the Brits started this crap a century ago (as well as the french). They should have left well enough alone. Then we wouldn't have to clean up the mess...
 
Quahom1 said:
Saudis...you are right. Antz is a cartoon. My sons are Army (medic and ranger). They saved lives, and cried when lives were lost. MW thinks she cornered the market on pain and loss, because she is Muslim? She thinks America is the whore monger? Horse's ass.

What she FORGETS is that she is British, and the Brits started this crap a century ago (as well as the french). They should have left well enough alone. Then we wouldn't have to clean up the mess...
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BS Q and you know it. The blame game is a joke, saying we blame the Brits for us believing lies and going into Iraq under false pretenses is rediculous.

Yes we'll use religion and any other excuse we can to go to war.
 
wil said:
BS Q and you know it. The blame game is a joke, saying we blame the Brits for us believing lies and going into Iraq under false pretenses is rediculous.

Yes we'll use religion and any other excuse we can to go to war.
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u s h it wil. The bull is tired.

That's the difference between you and me. I believe in this country and my God, you don't, in either...
 
wil said:
Namaste Q,

It is so lovely that you know what I believe and what I don't. How have I lived this long without you.
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Don't know wil. Miracles happen every day. You go side with MW, and anyone else that lines up and screams "badger" when there is none. As for me and mine, we will continue to back your rights to do so, up.

v/r

Q
 
Quahom1 said:
u s h it wil. The bull is tired.

That's the difference between you and me. I believe in this country and my God, you don't, in either...
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So you are a patriot man!! God and country with a gun!! lol, dont you just love freedom!!!
 
Quahom1 said:
That's the difference between you and me. I believe in this country and my God, you don't, in either...
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Q... some of us believe in our God, but not in countries...

We are each of us what we are. I owe allegiance only to God, and all humanity is my nation.

Pacifism doesn't make someone godless...
 
path_of_one said:
Q... some of us believe in our God, but not in countries...

We are each of us what we are. I owe allegiance only to God, and all humanity is my nation.

Pacifism doesn't make someone godless...
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Path,

I wonder if you believe that God will judges nations...as well as individuals...as the bible implies.

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left." - Matthew 25:31-33

Boy, it sure would suck to be in one of the nations on the left.
 
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