What is the future of Christianity?

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Kindest Regards, Abogado!
Who were the "bullies" in the story? You have choices: the Sanhedrin, Pilate, the Roman soldiers. What did Jesus give up to them? What did he say about how these bullies should be judged?
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There is one more choice, the adversary.

Now, at what point in my life am I likely to give my life as a sacrifice? I will not say it cannot happen. Indeed, many fine young men and women have given their lives on the battlefield that I may enjoy the life I now lead. But the odds of me being given over to execution as blood sacrifice for atonement of sin for the people of the world, is not very likely to happen. At least, at this point in my life, I don't feel God is grooming me for any such thing.

So equating my life with that of Jesus is kinda like apples and oranges.

He had a God-given destiny to fulfill. I doubt my God-given destiny is anything nearly so lofty.

So I speak from the trenches of laymen, of ordinary citizens who lead ordinary lives, trying their best to get by in a world that is not always friendly or conducive to peaceful interaction. Yes, I agree wholeheartedly that the ideal to strive for, always, is peace.

Sometimes, peace is just not possible. It is in these rare moments that defense is required. If we do not know how to defend ourselves, we have lost before the battle has begun. Sun Tzu would be very pleased with such an outcome, as an opposing general. To defeat the enemy without lifting a sword, that is the ultimate in warfare.

Politicians get an awful lot of flak, most of it deserved. But true leadership, by a true civil (or military) leader, is an awesome responsibility. A leader can not satisfy everybody always. The best they can hope for is to steer a course for the best for the most, in good ol' Mill's Utilitarian style. Whether or not this is righteous Christian reasoning, it is the kind of reasoning that led this nation and others through two world wars and then some.

So, back to Jesus' example, aside from Gethsemane. When Jesus perceived a group of men intending Him harm, He disappeared in the crowd. He separated Himself from the situation. He was quick to forgive, both personal offenses and offenses to others. He did not preach war, but He did teach about being prepared. On a couple of occasions He mentioned the Temple being destroyed. When it finally was, it was by warfare. There are other things He said that depending on interpretation, can be seen as advocating preparedness for battle. Paul seems to continue on some themes, such as "battling against (unseen?) powers and principalities." Not to mention the armor of God. So a great deal of the teachings in the Bible have military themes and applications.

I know I am rambling somewhat, and I really need to go back and support myself with the passages I am calling forward. But at this point I will stand by my understanding, which is that peace and forgiveness are always the preferable option. However, in those rare instances when peace is not an option because forgiveness is insufficient to assuage the attacker, then defense is right and proper. Not to mention heroic. For there is no greater gift a man can give, than to lay down his life for his friend.

We are not all like Gandhi. We do not have that capacity exercised. And as long as there are people in the world who do not have that capacity, there is the very real possibility that one of them may inpinge on your life at some point. If the matter can be forgiven, by all means do so. But if the intent does not cease there, and it is evident that the attacker means continued and greater harm, then it is time to kick dragon tail and take names.

My continued two cents.
 
Faithfulservant said:
There's a difference in self defense and revenge. Self defense I would stop the attacker so he could not harm me anymore but I would then allow the authorities to handle him. I do not believe Christ was telling us to stand there and let ourselves be abused he was warning us against vengeful action.
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I agree with you FS and also Path of One, Jt3, who distinguish self-protection in the moment from vengence. If I were being attacked I certainly would try to protect myself, hopefully by getting away or not using violence. But, as soon as the threat to life is past, any further violence by the victim would be vengence. Then the problem becomes one of how to help the abuser/attacker or how to keep him/her from harming others in the future.

But FS, your quote about obeying governmental authority: some governments base their rule in terror and evil. Do you tell the Nazis you're hiding Jews in your attic?

pondering,
lunamoth
 
Abogado del Diablo said:
Aside from pointing out when people were mistaken in what they were teaching (and perhaps overturning the moneychangers' tables, but that would be a bit of a stretch) where in the gospel stories does Jesus act in self-defense or advocate it? I know of several opportunities he did not take to defend himself.
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Jesus defended himself using scriptures.. Would you like examples? Was He physical in his defense? No :) Even though He is a man He is also God and is not subject to the same base flesh reactions we have.. The fact that He suffered as He did by choice proves that to me. You can also read that He did in fact have the armor of God intact when He was standing in front of Pilate and the Jews defending Himself.

WWJD is an impossible thing to achieve for me because I am not God and I feel at peace with my beliefs..

lunamoth said:
But FS, your quote about obeying governmental authority: some governments base their rule in terror and evil. Do you tell the Nazis you're hiding Jews in your attic?
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Yes and thank God that the reign of terror was cut short and justice prevailed... I also have beliefs that God allows into power those that are led by satan for reasons beyond our understanding. If you look at the world response to the Jewish nation after the holocaust and that they were recognized as a lawful state you can maybe see the good in something so awful.. Would I tell the nazis that I had Jews in my attic? heck no. That would be wrong morally and Would I deny Jesus Christ as my savior lest I die by execution a martyrs death. No I would not.
 
As demonstrated, sasa, almost no Christian accepts "turn the other cheek" as a teaching they are supposed to follow anyway. I doubt very many ever have.

So I don't think you could say that it was ever much of a part of "Christianity." But the fact that almost nobody agrees with it, doesn't make it not true -either in the past or today. It's as True today as when it was written, regardless of peoples' disagreement with it.
 
As demonstrated, sasa, almost no Christian accepts "turn the other cheek" as a teaching they are supposed to follow anyway. I doubt very many ever have.

So I don't think you could say that it was ever much of a part of "Christianity." But the fact that almost nobody agrees with it, doesn't make it not true -either in the past or today. It's as True today as when it was written, regardless of peoples' disagreement with it.
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Well that's fairly condescending, Abogado. :rolleyes: And untrue.
 
He also said that if your eye offends you.. to pluck it out. Do we do that also because He said to? I think some peoples problems are trying to interpret what Jesus meant and thats where we go round and round. This is why Jesus spoke in parables because if you do not have the truth you cannot understand what He is saying. As much as some might think that turning the other cheek means to allow yourself to be abused.. I very much disagree.
 
thank you sir, that felt good. I will take another. :) try these cheeks. we have more than two cheeks you know.

i would say we dont have to worry too much because God will take care of his people as He prepares them for the wedding & wedding supper of the Bridegroom.

yes.. i also believe very much so in self defense.
 
Faithfulservant said:
He also said that if your eye offends you.. to pluck it out.
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This is actually an Aramaic idiomatic expression. "If your eye offends you, pluck it out" was an expression that meant "Don't covet/be envious." "If your arm/hand offends you, cut it off" was an expression that meant "Don't steal." Aramaic is a very interesting language filled with expressions that just don't translate quite right into English.

So, here Jesus was not literally telling us to cut our eyes and hands off. He was telling people in the local dialect of the time, basically in slang- hey, don't be envious and don't steal.

"Turn the other cheek" is an expression that means "Don't fight." In its context, though, it seems to clearly teach non-violence.

Just my 2c.
 
Just a thought -

The 20th century and this century so far have been the only two centuries in history in which people could actually walk around after dark without a weapon. I mean, c'mon, nonviolence is seriously a luxury afforded to us modern folk. It is quite easy for us to say, "Well, turn the other cheek" - but then again this past century has been the only lawful one...well, ever.

So, it is easy for us to be judgmental concerning this, but keep in mind we are all speaking from a perspective where, chances are, we won't be victims.
 
Ecclesiastes
Chapter 31 There is an appointed time for everything, and a time for every affair under the heavens. 2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to uproot the plant. 3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to tear down, and a time to build. 4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance. 5 A time to scatter stones, and a time to gather them; a time to embrace, and a time to be far from embraces. 6 A time to seek, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away. 7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to be silent, and a time to speak. 8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.9 What advantage has the worker from his toil? 10 I have considered the task which God has appointed for men to be busied about. 11 He has made everything appropriate to its time, and has put the timeless into their hearts, without men's ever discovering, from beginning to end, the work which God has done. 12 I recognized that there is nothing better than to be glad and to do well during life. 13 For every man, moreover, to eat and drink and enjoy the fruit of all his labor is a gift of God. 14 I recognized that whatever God does will endure forever; there is no adding to it, or taking from it. Thus has God done that he may be revered. 15 1 What now is has already been; what is to be, already is; and God restores what would otherwise be displaced. 16 And still under the sun in the judgment place I saw wickedness, and in the seat of justice, iniquity. 17 And I said to myself, both the just and the wicked God will judge, since there is a time for every affair and on every work a judgment. 18 I said to myself: As for the children of men, it is God's way of testing them and of showing that they are in themselves like beasts. 19 For the lot of man and of beast is one lot; the one dies as well as the other. Both have the same life-breath, and man has no advantage over the beast; but all is vanity. 20 Both go to the same place; both were made from the dust, and to the dust they both return. 21 Who knows if the life-breath of the children of men goes upward and the life-breath of beasts goes earthward? 22 And I saw that there is nothing better for a man than to rejoice in his work; for this is his lot. Who will let him see what is to come after him?


I do not like war or fighting, but neither am I afraid of it. It is a job that sometimes must needs be done. This makes me no less a Christian, or a loving human being. It is however, dirty and ugly work. Some of us are cut out for it, and some are not.

But as long as there are those who will trod on others, there will be those who will stand up to prevent the trodding. God provides for this too. And who says that God Himself does not appoint those to take up arms...to have the constitution to rend life from another if neccessary?

There is a reason for everything, and everyone. God allows nothing to disappear (that He created).

I think, God holds special favor for the warriors. They deliberately set themselves up to be damaged in heart and mind and soul for the sake of others...and can never forget what they have done.

my two cents

v/r

Q
 
Quahom1 said:
Ecclesiastes
Chapter 31 There is an appointed time for everything, and a time for every affair under the heavens. 2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to uproot the plant. 3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to tear down, and a time to build. 4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance. 5 A time to scatter stones, and a time to gather them; a time to embrace, and a time to be far from embraces. 6 A time to seek, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away. 7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to be silent, and a time to speak. 8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.9 What advantage has the worker from his toil? 10 I have considered the task which God has appointed for men to be busied about. 11 He has made everything appropriate to its time, and has put the timeless into their hearts, without men's ever discovering, from beginning to end, the work which God has done. 12 I recognized that there is nothing better than to be glad and to do well during life. 13 For every man, moreover, to eat and drink and enjoy the fruit of all his labor is a gift of God. 14 I recognized that whatever God does will endure forever; there is no adding to it, or taking from it. Thus has God done that he may be revered. 15 1 What now is has already been; what is to be, already is; and God restores what would otherwise be displaced. 16 And still under the sun in the judgment place I saw wickedness, and in the seat of justice, iniquity. 17 And I said to myself, both the just and the wicked God will judge, since there is a time for every affair and on every work a judgment. 18 I said to myself: As for the children of men, it is God's way of testing them and of showing that they are in themselves like beasts. 19 For the lot of man and of beast is one lot; the one dies as well as the other. Both have the same life-breath, and man has no advantage over the beast; but all is vanity. 20 Both go to the same place; both were made from the dust, and to the dust they both return. 21 Who knows if the life-breath of the children of men goes upward and the life-breath of beasts goes earthward? 22 And I saw that there is nothing better for a man than to rejoice in his work; for this is his lot. Who will let him see what is to come after him?

I do not like war or fighting, but neither am I afraid of it. It is a job that sometimes must needs be done. This makes me no less a Christian, or a loving human being. It is however, dirty and ugly work. Some of us are cut out for it, and some are not.

But as long as there are those who will trod on others, there will be those who will stand up to prevent the trodding. God provides for this too. And who says that God Himself does not appoint those to take up arms...to have the constitution to rend life from another if neccessary?

There is a reason for everything, and everyone. God allows nothing to disappear (that He created).

I think, God holds special favor for the warriors. They deliberately set themselves up to be damaged in heart and mind and soul for the sake of others...and can never forget what they have done.

my two cents

v/r

Q
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So my daughter asked me today, Mommy, why did God make soldiers? Not sure where this came from (she's only four). It doesn't take much reflection to realize that all that we have by way of peace and security are based upon the work (blood sweat and tears) of our armed forces. And I am thankful for the soldiers who protect us and make our way of life possible. I just won't give up on the idea that some day it will not need to be this way.

I agree with what you wrote Q.

Peace,
lunamoth
 
Kindest Regards, all!

A special nod to Q!

You beat me to it, bud! I just came online to posit the exact same passage.

No doubt in my mind Jesus was well aware of the verses in Ecclesiastes. He was learned enough to debate with the Temple elders at a young age (isn't debate a form of offense-defense? That is, you set up a point and defend it...). Jesus could not have taught from the New Testament, so He must have argued from the Old Testament. Likewise Paul.

I do believe warriors have a place in society, a very honorable place. And that includes religion.

Even among cultures with the most peace loving religions, the contributions of the warriors was necessary. Without warriors, defenders, no culture could have historically survived. From warriors in tribal societies like the Native Americans, Celts, Australian Aborigines, any native tribe of Africa, to those we think in modern terms as peaceful like the Buddhist cultures of Japan and China (even Tibet) with their martial artists. And beyond. The most peace loving Hindis still maintained a very worthy army, and since independence have rebuilt that army. The warrior caste, by my understanding, was subordinate only to the priestly class and royalty.

Bloodshed is an integral part of life. We all kill, just to survive. We call it "eating." So on some base level we are predisposed to kill. Biologists call us carnivores, and rather successful ones at that. Even vegans kill plants, and plants too are alive. Not killing sentient beings is a noble effort, but who delineates sentience? How do we know whether plants are sentient or not? I could even posit that rocks are alive, and sentient, because this is what I believe through my experience. Not logical, not rational, not believable, and I don't really care. I just know my experience, that is what had been granted me.

And then what of ritual sacrifice of animals for "covering" of sin? Was God wrong to require blood sacrifice? It is His game after all, His rules. We don't get to make the rules, He just allows us to think we do sometimes. In my walk, I want to know His rules, not make up my own as I go, picking and choosing what pleases me, and missing out on the balance that natural reality, God's Providence, provides.

(Aside, but it leads into my next point...) A favorite line of mine from the Karate Kid movie, "Rule number one: Karate is for defense only. Rule number two: you must learn rule number one."

PEACE IS ALWAYS THE PREFERABLE OPTION. In rare instances, peace is not an option. It is then, and only then, that violence for protection of all you hold dear is warranted. This is not a loophole, and is not to be used in any such manner. But if you or that you hold dear is threatened, you have the "right" of defense. Are there not mitigating, extenuating or aggravating circumstances?

Case in point: What do you do if a stranger, unknown to you strung out on dope, has broken into your house, holds your wife with a gun to her head, and threatens to rape your daughter in the next room after he kills the two of you. And you are standing in a position to do something about it. What do you do? Let such an attacker have his way? Turn the other cheek, as it is commonly interpreted? "Go ahead, kill me and my wife, and have your way with my daughter because I am going to hold the moral high ground."

You may be "right," but you and your family are dead for it.

Yes, you will likely bear mental and emotional scars for the rest of your life if you kill the intruder. But you also have God's forgiveness, in a matter that required decisive action at that moment, without hesitation, for the protection of your loved ones.

Yes, peace is the preferable option. Max Ehrman wrote in the Desiderata, "As far as possible, without surrender, be on good terms with all persons." (emphasis mine, -jt3) The only being I am prepared to surrender to is my God. Everyone else better pack a lunch, it's gonna be a long day at the office...

I think my example participating here over the last year and some months serves to illustrate my meaning well enough. I do my best to practice what I preach. I am not belligerent towards anybody, except in those rare instances when either someone is belligerent towards me, or to someone in my care. I have repeatedly stressed tolerance, and still do. There is no conflict of interest in wanting to defend what I hold dear, and tolerating what others hold dear. All the while I am mindful, in a Kantian sort of way, that what is good for the goose is good for the gander. If it is not good for you, it is not good for me. What is good for you, is good for me. The only qualifiers I can think of here being that we must have a mutual respect between us, and that this "good" is not in violation of what I understand God's law to be. And that law seems pretty much endemic throughout all of the major faiths, and made of a very similar composition. The allowance then, is for personal interpretation of that law. The law seems not subjective, it is our interpretations that are subjective.
 
Kindest Regards, lunamoth!

I just won't give up on the idea that some day it will not need to be this way.
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That time is promised, and I look forward to it with great anticipation. But that time will not come about by the hand of humanity alone.
 
Q remember what I said on another thread.. God is a warrior poet Himself. :) I very much agree with your post as well.
 
Q very good post, I agree totally.

Jos 5:13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries? Jos 5:14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant? Jos 5:15 And the captain of the LORD's host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.(KJV)

There stood a man over against him - It has been a very general opinion, both among the ancients and moderns, that the person mentioned here was no other than the Lord Jesus in that form which, in the fullness of time, he was actually to assume for the redemption of man. That the appearance was supernatural is agreed on all hands; and as the name Jehovah is given him, (Jos_6:2), and he received from Joshua Divine adoration, we may presume that no created angel is intended.(Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Bible)

So we see Jesus himself knew there was a time for war also since he instructed Joshua exactly how it should be done in Ch6.
 
so ,what is the future of christianity ?the bible tells us that there is a good future for those doing Gods will , so the question is, who are doing Gods will,

Christendom has proved to be an enemy of God and of the Bible. Yes, the facts of history show that Christendom has betrayed God and the Bible ,with its unbiblical doctrines

The doctrines of Christendom are based not on the Bible but on ancient myths

Teachings such as the inherent immortality of the human soul, eternal torment in hellfire, purgatory, and the Trinity (three persons in one Godhead) are not found in the Bible

The teachings of the Bible about God and his purposes are clear, easy to understand, and reasonable. But the teachings of Christendom’s churches are not. Worse, they contradict the Bible

Christendom has betrayed God and the Bible by her actions. What the clergy and churches have done in past centuries, and have continued to do in our time, is the opposite of what the God of the Bible requires and the opposite of what the Founder of Christianity, Jesus Christ, taught and did

For instance, Jesus taught his followers not to meddle in this world’s political affairs nor to get involved in its wars. He also taught them to be peace-loving

Yet, century after century, the clergy of Christendom have meddled in politics and have supported the wars of their nations. They have even supported the opposing sides in wars within Christendom, such as the two world wars of this century. In those conflicts the clergy on each side prayed for victory, and members of one religion from one country were killing members of that same religion from another country. But that is how the Bible says Satan’s children, not God’s, act. (1 John 3:10-12, 15) Thus, while the clergy and their followers have claimed to be Christian, they have contradicted the teachings of Jesus Christ, who told his followers to ‘put away the sword.’—Matthew 26:51, 52. and i wonder what God thinks of all this

 
Yep - please refrain from the preaching/pasting, mee - we're here to discuss, not throw books at one another. :)

And this thread is supposed to be about the future of Christianity. This isn't a "my church is better than my church" thread - start a new discussion for that, please. :)
 
according to the bible the future of those claiming to represent the God of the bible ,but not doing his will is not very good

gaining accurate knowledge of the truth as taught in the Bible is a key to salvation christendom have rejected the very word of Jehovah, and what wisdom do they have, certainly not Gods wisdom , but only the wisdom of the world, and according to the bible there is an acounting from Jehovah yet to come . i for one am out of christendom and no part of it, because it will go down in a big waythe same as all false religion this is what the bible tells us.not for true christianity thou the future for that is good











 
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