Debunking "the devil"...

Hi dhisbrook, and welcome to comparative-religion.com!

I sincerely hope this place remains civlised - and also that people visit to actually discuss general issues of belief and theology. :)

But you do make an important point, that I believe WHKieth touched particularly upon on another thread. If I may risk misapplying his comments, a point to make is that we what actually believe is not important - except to ourselves.

Whilst this may sound stunningly obvious to some - and heretically small-minded to others, the principle in application here is that Satan means only what we allow the word to mean.

Hence those who see Satan as a literal figure, do so because it helps their world view make better sense.

And those who see Satan as a metaphorical (or allegorical) figure, do so because it helps their world view make better sense.

While some would object that either Satan is obviously real, or else that Satan is obviously metaphor, on this forum it actually doesn;t matter. The diversity of belief is welcome.

No matter our gifts and talents, none of us truly knows the mind of God. We are limited mortal vessels who cannot claim omniscient knowledge. Therefore we go for a second best - best fit, according to personal tates and experience. In that itself there is no "wrong" answer.

Or is that myself simply hiding from an Objective Truth? ;)
 
Lucifer is the opportunist ... Satan is the liar ... and the Devil is evil ... And what do you get? ... LSD! ... LSD! ... LSD!

And here, where Lucifer corresponds to the "world of spirits" that exist between Heaven and Hell, Satan and the Devil correspond to the upper and lower regions of Hell, respectively. Whereby the Devil - through these three degrees - becomes the "embodiment" of Hell itself. Indeed, there are lots of "devils" (evil spirits) in Hell.
 
Hmmm...First, Hello Mr. Keith. Sorry I've been away for so long. Been trying to buy a house. LOL. So I am quite busy.

As to the subject of these posts. I have a strong opinion of Wiccanism and modern Christianity.

First, I'll touch on the treatment of WiccanWade on the other board, and the fact of the "gay-bashing" on a Christian site.

First, no one can point a finger at God for man's actions. I do not support people who discriminate against anyone for their sexual preferences. Or their philosphical belief, and/or religous background. As far as bheing a Christian going into Wiccanism, I cannot seem to understand why one who was born again, would turn their back on the one who first loved us. However, that is not a decision I shall point a finger at, or justify it. It was a decision you made for yourself, and like me, you are the one that will live with it. I neither judge you, or hate you based on that info. As I am fond of saying: "God has a lot of patience, and he will call to you when he wishes to."

As far as debunking the devil/god/Jesus, and such.

Man knows of the existence of God due to various reports by men. The greatest example is the bible, the Koran(sp?) and like-items that point to a deity.

Now, man cannot know of things that are spiritual. The bible says this. If man were to gaze upon the face of god, they would die. That is in the Old Testament. Sin cannot live in the presence of the Almighty. We were born in sin, and cannot gaze upon god without something to go through. I.E. Christ.

We cannot debunk god, or the Devil based on evidence. Why? Because the REAL hard facts of evidence does not exist. We cannot talk to a person who has "Seen" the devil. Because then the question would then be, "What did this person really see?" In case of possesion, "Was it really an evil spirit?" Or, "How do I know this person did not make things up to get attention?" These questions and a lot more have been brought up for the last two-thousand yrs.

Satan/The Devil/and various other names he has gone by, is none as "The Deceiver." "Slanderous" was used to describe a person who at that time, was appointed by the "courts" of that time. We call them Prosecutors nowadays.

The greatest thing a person is aware of in their life is that there is more going on in the world, both physical and spiritual that can be seen, or explained. God is God. The Devil is The Devil. I for one, do not need physical proof of Satan's existence. Nor do I need proof of God's. Faith is key to survival in this world, whether you believe in a god/goddess is up to the said individual.

I know what I know about the Spirirual Realm due to my own experience. Were I to go into details about that, you guys would just conclude the same previous questions. So rather than defend my position, I'll just say one thing more, and let you all think for yourselves.

As far as Christian's "thinking for themselves," we do. Or, I do. And most Christians I know do. We base our belief not on just faith. But knowledge in it from experience in the field of religous belief. In other words, I've seen more than I am saying.

I think that the greatest lie the Devil ever told to man, was the one that convinced man he didn't exist. So, how can we prove something exists when there is no solid proof? One cannot prove that a god/goddess exists, nor can we prove that a devil or the like, exists. We can however, use various research techniques available to prove our case. But a friend of mine who is a Psychologist, likes to say that when a person does research on a subject, that results will be 98% opinion-filled and biased. Meaning, it will lean to what we want to believe. In other words, when scientists have a theory and set out to prove it, they have to do it a certain way, so as not to pollute the findings. This results a lot in research done in the third and fourth person. With as little human help as possible. So how can a person research how to "debunk" the devil and not pollute their findings? It can't be done. We believe what we will. Whether their is proof of it or not. People are people.

So rather than giving advice on how to write this book, or giving you a reference for it, I would say this to you instead.

If you REALLY want to know whether the devil, or god exists, than take a chance and ask him. Ask God to reveal to you the truth. Keep asking him until something happens. When it does, you'll know. I know that the God I believe in will reveal himself to the one seeking, when he is sought. The bible says that when a person cries out, he will meet us half way. So if you want the truth, the REAL answer, the one unbiased by man, then ask Him. Sit down. Ask God (Whether you believe in him or not) to reveal to you the truth about Him and the Devil. I can promise you that eventually, if you are really serious about it, you'll get an answer. But be warned: The answer may not be one you want to hear. Good Luck with your book, as I am an author myself, although I do not have near as many things written as our good friend Bill.

I wish you well, and hope your results will prove to you the way things really are. if not, well....that is what Prayer is for.

God's Peace be With you.
Daniel Cox.
 
My thanks to Daniel for his thoughtful and well-considered post on this thread. The rich variety of Christian thought and faith-experience is so interesting and spirit-enriching to explore, that I hope Daniel's and my brethren will find a comfortable home here.

May the words that we type and the meditations of our hearts be acceptable in His sight.

Peace,
 
Daniel said:
>> Man knows of the existence of God due to various reports by men. The greatest example is the bible, the Koran(sp?) and like-items that point to a deity.

Now, man cannot know of things that are spiritual. The bible says this.
>> If man were to gaze upon the face of god, they would die. That is in the Old Testament.

>> Sin cannot live in the presence of the Almighty. We were born in sin, and cannot gaze upon god without something to go through. I.E. Christ.

>>If you REALLY want to know whether the devil, or god exists, than take a chance and ask him. Ask God to reveal to you the truth. .
______________

As Brian said earlier, this must be regarded as your take on a question that has many possible answers.

My concern is with the overwhelming number of false reports on this subject.

Let's take an OT example:

Exodus 25:1 Then the YHWH spoke to Moses, saying, "Speak to the children of Israel, that they bring me an offering... and let them make me a sanctuary, that I may dwell among them."

The literal reading of this (and it goes on for several pages, if you're interested, a list of things God expects from the children of Israel)... say that we can "know" God exists because of this report about Moses speaking to him.

How do we know whether this is a fabrication? A con game? A scam?

It seems that buying into the idea that god exists, based on the proofs you mentioned, doesn't leave enough room for something essential to everyone in today's society.

Carl Sagan called it a "Lie Detector."

There are so many dishonest people, we all need to develop some kind of a flexible test for separating "Legitimate" from "Con." If we're hard-nosed about it, we write down some rules and think about whether they're good enough. If not, we just say, "Oh, it's a gut instinct thing."

When the con artists send you an e-mail, saying they have had a conversation with the YHWH and YHWH wants you to send them a check for $100, how do we know whether to believe them or not?

What is the test? YOUR test?

Surely it has to be something other than "if it is in a report written by men, then we can know that it was actually a conversation with God."
__________

Second, your idea about men not being able to look at God because we are born in sin... if I had to identify one piece of dogma that is obviously a con game, that people should be able to put into Column B and say, "This is an example of someone making up a lie in order to fool you," this would be it.

The idea that God could create human beings, and then because we are sinful, God cannot ... whatever the specifics of the con, I don't buy it.

IF God created us, and God planned for us to die, then why would we absolutely, necessarily have to die if we look God in the face??

It just doesn't make any sense to me. Can you help explain it so I can understand? If God wanted to make us so we could look at him, even though we are sinning at the time, why couldn't God do that?
 
Voodoo priests can now legally perform marriages

More or less on this same subject, the Boston Globe published this article about voodoo practicioners gaining legal rights in Haiti:


http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/2...odoo_in_Haiti_stirs_enthusiasm_concern+.shtml

Legitimizing voodoo has strengthened Aristide's image as a man of the people and probably has enhanced popular support for the rumored bid by the former Roman Catholic priest to amend the constitution so he can seek a now-prohibited third term as president...Haiti's Catholic clergy has reacted with alarm at the moves to empower voodoo practitioners to conduct rituals with legal significance, especially baptisms, which the church contends are an exclusively Christian domain. The bishop of Port-au-Prince, Monsignor Joseph Lafontant, issued a statement shortly after the government decree deeming the status accorded voodoo ''excessive'' and its application to civil ceremonies ''an obvious mistake.''
______________________

Comment: The Catholic clergy considers "baptisms" to be an exclusively Christian domain... hmmm.
_________________


Voodoo is deeply intertwined in the two strands that have shaped Haiti: African slavery and French Christian colonization.

Practitioners meet to invoke spirits -- called ''loa'' or ''lwas'' in Creole -- who give advice through the often frenzied voices of their worshipers.
________________________

Comment: Christianity isn't the only religion that includes conversations with demonic spirits... but Voodoo takes it a step further, encouraging their followers to consider the words of the spirits - the "Ioa" - as credible advice.
_____________________

It is a religion based on prayer, music, dancing and sacrifice, often bloody.

While traditional religions such as Catholicism and Protestant denominations are prevalent through most of the Haitian population, about half of Haiti's 8.1 million people also practice voodoo, according to the CIA World Factbook. Voodoo followers have been able to throw off the secrecy and shackles since Aristide's proclamation two months ago that as an ancestral legacy, ''voodoo is an essential part of national identity.''

By bestowing legitimacy on the African-origin religion, Aristide, the beleaguered president of this poorest of Western countries has signaled to his people that they should be proud of their African heritage, not forced to subvert it under the religious practices of the European Christians who once repressed them.

...The religion, which is closely entwined with nature, also offers some hope of halting the rapacious harvesting of trees for making charcoal -- a desperate means of making a meager living that has shorn Haiti of most of its forests.

Evonie Auguste, from the Carrefour suburb of Port-au-Prince, the Haitian capital. ''In voodoo, trees are living things that God put here to be respected. Nature is the place where the spirits live.''

______________

Comment: Please ignore my lack of expertise about voodoo. It is a legitimate religion, recognized by the government of Haiti, and it deals with spirits that live... in trees, it seems - and gives credibility to people who pass on messages from these spirits.
 
Skeptic 44--Once again, I am amazed by your posts. Your posts on here are well thought out, and prevocative, and they make me think. So this is definitely a good thing. However, I find that the most common mistake among people when talking about god, the devil, and heaven and hell, they tend to forget that the world of the Spirit does not operate the way ours does.

When I said "Ask God for the truth" I meant just that.When you do ask god about it, leave your mind out of it. Why? Because the Mind is the enemy of God. Why? Because it hurts us in the fact that it tries to tell us things like "how do I know this is real and not a fabricated lie?" You do not know. And that is the point. If you want to know then you can take the same test I took a loooong time ago.Do not rationalize the experience, because if you do, it will ruin it. Just sit down, and say---"Okay God, I need the truth. You tell me whats real." He will. And you will know beyond any kind of doubt that what is said to you is true. But do keep in mind that the Devil can also appear as an angel of light, just as the bible says. So in that regard, ask God---"LOrd, if you are truly there, and you truly exist, reveal to me your love, and reveal to me your truth." That is the test I took---Since then, there is no going back for me.
 
i will get to the point eventually, but darn this is a great thread

sorry if this is a bit of a hijack, but some of the things you mention on the "jesus and hell" page are a leetle controversial. for a start, the story of the 'good samaritan' is, from our PoV, an attack on the human consequences of the system of ritual purity - at least at first glance. as we know, kohanim and levi'im are prohibited from coming in contact with a corpse (the injured guy could have died) apart from that of a close relative by leviticus 21:1-3. however, a small amount of research - if you know how jewish law works - reveals that the Oral Law that goes with the Written Law of the Torah states that quite apart from the fact that a kohen can become tamei (usually mistranslated as 'ritually impure', but properly understood as making him ineligible for Temple service for a period of time) for *anyone who has no relatives or friends to help* (tractate Sukkah 25b) - such a corpse is known as a "met mitzvah" and it is incumbent on anyone - even a kohen or levi if there is noone else - to help to bury it. from this we can understand that the kohen and levi mentioned in the parable did not observe this law of "met mitzvah" so they were in fact wrong to behave as they did - which jesus points out. alternatively, it is also possible that jesus is making a point about the great disputes between those referred to in the NT as 'sadducees and pharisees', where the Temple "establishment" (ie kohanim and levi'im) rejected the more complex rulings of the rabbis and making the point that the Oral Law is required for the Written Law to function as an integrated, complete human system. in the long run, of course, the "sadducee" tendency lost out. similarly, there are plenty of accounts contemporary with jesus that make the point that the jews are behaving improperly and will be punished for it by G!D. but i digress..

now, back to the "adversary". please see my post in http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=338 for the comparatively minor role played by "ha-Satan" in judaism.

Identification with the serpent in the Garden of Eden came MUCH later.
correct. there is a certain conflation that happens in talmudic times (2nd-5th century) between the angelic figure of ha-Satan and the 'yetzer ha-ra' or 'evil inclination', who is a figure rather like that little guy that appears hovering by your shoulder in cartoons. anyway, according to us, the YH-R is responsible not only for selfishness, but also for competititiveness, our desire to reproduce and build houses - in other words, all the stuff that wouldn't happen if we were all perfect, saintly angelic creatures with no free-will - hence it is said "the evil inclination is 'very good'" - because without it we would not be humans, capable of making the right choices. it is only at the point that H-S and YH-R get rolled in together - as well as with the other angelic figure of Sama'El - that we start finding stuff in there about the serpent. similarly, as is correctly pointed out bu WHKeith, evil also comes from G!D, because everything, by definition, comes from G!D.

ladyphlegethon is also correct to point out that the jews were exposed to a considerable amount of external influences following the babylonian exile in 586 BCE and more zoroastrian and mithraic stuff during the talmudic period. some of these ideas did indeed get coopted into a jewish framework, but how much is debatable. as for the documentary hypothesis, it is not compatible with our traditional understanding of the Torah - but more of that anon.

now, on to the Shechinah. although the Shechinah is female, we must not confuse her with "Mrs G!D". the Divine Is a Unity and transcends gender. gender is only used to explain stuff, because the only way the mystical tradition can explain just how stuff really fundamentally happens is in terms of sexuality, the most mysterious and complicated process known to humans. it's a way of describing the deepest mysteries through symbolic analogy. and the supernal triad of KeTeR-ChoKhMaH-BINaH is one of the most complicated bits and the most hedged about with qualification, because of the danger of misinterpreting it in dualistic terms that are incompatible with monotheism. remember - the sefirot are not G!D, not even keter. they can only be described as a conceptual model of the interface between the Infinite Divine and the universe. and the Shechinah is not the only female-flavoured interface of the Divine - sometimes in the more traditional liturgy G!D is addressed in the feminine and there is at least one Divine Name - "El-ShaDaY" - that shares the three letter root Shin-Dalet-Yod for "breasts". G!D Is *not* male. the Big Beard In The Sky is a creation of freud, not jewish tradition.

in reference to skeptic44's point about "how do we know this message is from G!D", this is an extremely important point and well made. it is addressed at several points, but the prevailing opinion is based upon that of the RaMBa"M (maimonides, C11th) who states in the 'YaD, his monumental codification of halacha, that although a prophet (ie someone who is receiving messages directly from G!D) outranks a sage, "1001 sages outweigh 1000 prophets" because all jewish law is human-interpreted and majority-rule and cannot even be overruled by a heavenly voice (viz. the talmudic episode of the 'oven of achnai', bava metzia 59b). we don't consider the mind the 'enemy of G!D'. ramba"m presents a number of tests which a prophet has to pass before being accepted as such - which are punishable by death if the prophet is proven to be a fake. and once you're a prophet, you are subject to continual assessment. anyway, we also consider that there has been no prophecy since the destruction of the Temple and there won't be until the Moshiakh (messiah) shows up. this means no new sacred texts - the books are closed and all we can do is interpret what we already have.

to address skeptic44's other points, i can only say that judaism does not believe in "original sin". humans have free will. obviously if you do not have the freedom to make the wrong choice as well as the right one, you are not truly free. there is always a subsidiarity of choice operating. essentially, since we left eden, a different set of rules have applied - but it is hard to argue that the adam and eve of the garden were truly human - in fact one midrash says that they were 600 feet tall and covered with scales! more importantly, the RaMBa"N (nachmanides) suggests that eve did not experience sexual pleasure until she left the garden - sex being previously an entirely mechanical, routine process rather like, say, going to the toilet. mindfulness and delight in the things that make us human are no less part of the expulsion from eden as all the stuff like having to work for a living. you can't have one without the other.

incidentally, as a one-time scholar of early french literature (among other things) i've always had a soft spot for baigent & leigh, but they do tend to show off a bit in an attempt to sell more books - "THE BOOK THEY DON'T WANT YOU TO READ!!!! THE STUFF THEY TRY TO HIDE!!!" and so on. their scholarly credentials are not universally respected, i'm afraid. deary me.

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
Certainly there's a lot inf the "Jesus and Hell" that is controversial - but it's written principally as an exploration of Jesus from a non-typical perspective.

The notion of the Good Samaritan being a violation of ritual purity seems a little weak as an argument. The idea is interesting, though, and perhaps the specific reference to Levites makes for a wider context within Christian ideas.

I was personally taking my cue from Josephus, principally his comments on the factionalised nature of Judea, and the complete disunity of the population, up towards the time of the Seige of Jerusalam. It is worth noting particularly that Josephus makes a point of stating Gallilee a place of particular lawlessness. How that may relate to a wider theological picture with reference to the Levites is certainly something for further consideration.
 
Apologies for that - :) - what I'm inadvertently saying is that you have presented a new idea to me, and I'm terrible at being able to handle new ideas without at least some period of reflection.

I had wanted to correct my post quickly after - frankly, it looks somewhat rude (and sincere apologies for that) - but I had to attened to tea-time chores (cooking, cleaning, etc).

My post should have been structured along the lines of:
Certainly there's a lot inf the "Jesus and Hell" that is controversial - but it's written principally as an exploration of Jesus from a non-typical perspective.

I was personally taking my cue from Josephus, principally his comments on the factionalised nature of Judea, and the complete disunity of the population, up towards the time of the Seige of Jerusalam. It is worth noting particularly that Josephus makes a point of stating Gallilee a place of particular lawlessness.

The notion of the Good Samaritan being a violation of ritual purity is an interesting idea, though, and one I've not encountered before.

It would be especially interesting to see whether that interpretation has any direct relevance from a Christian point of view, especially with reference to general preachings against the Pharisees - and perhaps, the lack of leadership and vision that Jesus is trying to correct, as suggested in a somewhat controversial re-interpretation.
 
josephus is a historical authority, not a religious one. he also sold out to the romans, which makes him pretty questionable from our PoV.

jewishly speaking, it is perfectly feasible for jesus to have been attacking the behaviour of hypocritical members of the religous establishment (ie priests and levites) without suggesting that the notion of ritual purity was somehow invalid - in fact, the argument i have made actually seems to put jesus firmly in the rabbinic - ie pharisaic - camp. i'd have to take preaching against the pharisees, however, on specifics, so feel free to quote me an example or too and i will attempt to respond.

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
bananabrain said:
josephus is a historical authority, not a religious one. he also sold out to the romans, which makes him pretty questionable from our PoV.
From a purely historical perspective, all ancient sources are questionable to some degree, and usually infused with some degree of politik. The history of Byzantium seems especially overt on that point.

Though his comments require a wider reading to be better placed in context, Josephus does still include saleint cultural and historical points.

I think it was the work sometimes translated as "The War with Rome" were I noted the passage where he described Gallilee as particularly violent and factional. If that's a reflection of any form of historical reality, then it certainly makes for an intersting qualifier for aspects of the Gospels.
bananabrain said:
jewishly speaking, it is perfectly feasible for jesus to have been attacking the behaviour of hypocritical members of the religous establishment (ie priests and levites) without suggesting that the notion of ritual purity was somehow invalid - in fact, the argument i have made actually seems to put jesus firmly in the rabbinic - ie pharisaic - camp. i'd have to take preaching against the pharisees, however, on specifics, so feel free to quote me an example or too and i will attempt to respond.

b'shalom

bananabrain
I think we are on far similar lines of thinking on many aspects covered across our posts.

I have a query about the Pharisees - but I'll take that to a new thread.
 
Kindest Regards to all!

Once again, it seems I'm a little late to the party.

I want to thank everybody for the very well researched answers. It was very educational.

I suspect perhaps what WiccanWade was initially searching for pertains to the profound effect Dante's "Divine Comedy" had on the general Christian population, circa 1300, encouraged so I have read somewhere by the clergy on the essentially illiterate masses. The best article I have found that addressed the issue solely was in one of the popular newsmagazines some years back (US News and World Report, I believe, but it may well have been Time or Newsweek). I apologize for not having an author to quote, the bulk of my studies until recently have been a personal pursuit without regard for having to eventually cite sources.

At any rate, my understanding is that the common mental image of a "Devil" in red, long-handled underwear with horns on his head, a pitchfork and pointed tail stems from the period of Dante's comedy. A couple of sources I have read were emphatic that Dante wrote his work as a farce, yet is was received among the masses almost as a vision. Certain elements linger in the Christian psyche to this day, including the aforementioned mental image of the Devil.

I don't know if this helps any or not, but my intent is sincere.

I am in agreement with Bananabrain and WHKeith in their presentations (I was on a similar path in my studies, I just hadn't gone nearly as deep into the subject). I am grateful to them in particular for expanding this area of my understanding. As for a visual image, I think the Dead Sea Scroll "War between the Sons of Light and the Sons of Darkness" sums it up nicely for me. Incarnate evil, if there be such a thing (a good potentiality in my mind), is an unfathomable black darkness. Kind of like a black hole. That is the mental image I hold.

I would hasten to add, in the sense of scholarship, it seems somewhat improper in my humble opinion to seek out research to support a position, rather than developing the position from where the research leads.

One final question, is there something to being published that I am unaware of? Is a person's scholarship somehow enhanced by virtue of being published? Or is there some other component I am unaware of and overlooking? Just curious...there seems to be a great deal of emphasis on writing for the sake of publication throughout these pages and this site.
 
I must commend Jaweh and Allah

Banana, in regard to ritual purity I must commend Judaism and Islam for their insistence on ritual purity which works very well for personal hygiene.

No amount of wiping can do as thorough a job as a good cleansing with water. Install a douche-bidet in your bathroom. Good specially for the womenfolk.

I have heard of how Muslims are inconvenienced by the religious prescription to wash their anal region after defecation and also after urination the adjunct area. In a long bus trip along the highway for a convenience stop for the needs of nature, Muslims could delay departure in their search for water to do their religious washing.

What about Jews who are faithful to the letter of their law?

I am really serious here. At home I have installed douche-bidet in every bathroom. We don't use toilet paper except for visitors which is also available, not among ourselves. After major function we proceed to the douche-bidet bowl and do the cleansing of the anal region, then with a bowl brush clean if need be also the douche-bidet bowl. Try it at home, everyone here: very practical, and not to be queasy; it's really much more cleaner. And of course wash your hands afterwards, paying attention to your nails.

I picked up the cleansing idea from Muslims, but the douche-bidet from the French. Do Jews do some similar procedure> I am eager to learn something from them in this direction

Susma Rio Sep
 
Anyone else old enough to remember Geraldine? "The Devil made me do it"

It appears to me it is awfully handy to have a convenient excuse, create one if you need one, set personal responsibility aside and place blame somewhere else for your actions.

That being said I think the 'devil' exists within all of us that whole free will thing decides which way we are going to go. Between peer pressure and the little cartoon characters on each shoulder whispering in our ear we need to take charge of ourselves sometime...it is all part of the learning and growing process...
 
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