The Science of Kabbalah

So lets see.
We are not allowed to question kabbalah. We are forbidden to participate in other spiritual studies. Rav Laitman uses classic cult techniques. Rav is constantly acting bi-polar (with scientists he is an Atheist. On his lectures, especially from Shlavei Hasulam, etc and etc he is like a Kabbalist).He keeps changing dramatically between different audiences.

Of course the more progressed kabbalists will not tell
you EVERYTHING that is going on "The Kabbalists begin
by teaching spirituality in small doses"
http://www.kabbalah.info/engkab/book...k1eng_ch07.htm

Remember that Heaven's gate did NOT advertise castration and suicide. Remember This "brainwashing" constantly happens in the Kabbalistic group. Any questions, please ask me. I tried to condense this as I could.

http://www.kabbalah.info//engkab/mat...philosophy.htm
Please don't say "But the Rav has said that nothing occult is in Kabbalah" . COnsidering how he contradicts himself (It usually happens when you lie) all the time, and considering that he teaches us in small doses, brainwashes us, etc etc I am not surprised.

Tell me what cult did not lie, withhold information, etc and etc? Heaven's gate? White Brotherhood? Don't you think that they didn't use "Spirituality doesn't have to make sense. Have Faith. You are egoist to think for yourself" in one form or another? So lets see. Mind control, US vs Them attitude, disregard for other opinions, lack of any kind of self critique,
brainwashing, Rav is not accountable to anyone, etc.... You get the idea.

Please read and REFLECT.
http://www.refocus.org/charcult.html
http://www.howcultswork.com/

Other than cultish, sectarian and divisive overtones, why is Kabbalah dangerous? Because they have a political agenda. They want to change the world for the better, to make it more altruistic, to defeat egoism. Just like the Bolsheviks, the kabbalists have "congresses", "group meetings", song and dances together. We all know the terror that happened when the Bolsheviks (Communists) came to power. The Kabbalah may have as much as 100s of thousands of people. Read what one former Bnei Baruch Group member has said:

"It is clear to members of Bnei Baruch, or at least to the leadership, that in order to enter massively into people’s daily life they first will have to achieve some kind of
social recognition. This target is pursued using all possible media to the maximum extent possible – Internet, radio, TV, books, tapes – and trying to access the Israeli scholastic system by holding courses in high schools and universities. We should not forget the use of stars, as taught by Rabbi Philip Berg, such as Madonna & friends. Bnei Baruch in fact chases VIPs and it has already collected some national stars. Although not apparent, everything is planned. Unlike Mr. Berg’s organization, these efforts by Bnei Baruch are not for money to enrich the leader. Money is considered important, but only as a means to obtain the real target - control over people, i.e. power. Obviously the group thinks that everything is done to spread God’s will (but how many times on this planet will we have to listen to people who claim to know God’s will?). I want to tell you a short story that helped me understand what is really happening in Bnei Baruch. During the last Sukkoth celebrations, on the official opening day of their Autumn Congress, a parade was organized. People from ‘all over the world’ marched, like in a troop salutation with banners from their countries of origin, along a boulevard to a stage prepared for the occasion with a fancy illumination, where Mr. Laitman was waiting, sitting on a wheel chair. His family had the ‘seats of honor’ and everyone waved small flags with the logo of the Congress. Laitman then spoke, the Statute of the State of Kabbalah was read, and the flag of the future society hoisted. All this happened “as a game”, a performance that was supposed to strengthen our connection with the importance of the goal and our loyalty to Baal Hasulam’s message. What actually crept in here was the use of symbols and patterns that throughout history have been used by strong political powers to affirm their supremacy and the supremacy of their leadership.

Laitman believes that Kabbalah will be the ideology of the future world. What is ideology if not a sclerotic system of ideas? When ideas become an ideology it parallels putting animals into a museum, i.e. they are dead. Moreover, every ideology is nothing but a picture, an image of what it represents. The same of an idol which requires total devotion, blind respect and self-sacrifice…and this looks contradicts the second commandment of the Torah: “Thou shall not make unto thee any graven image”.

The structure of the future society, painted in Baal Hasulam’s articles “The last generation” and “The solution”, highlights the passé and utopist social system of a world led by a group of wise Kabbalists. This society, as explained by the Rav Laitman, will have to provide for itself all needed social structures (schools, hospitals, courts, etc.), and all that concerns the community will be managed and solved inside these same structures. Relationships with outside governments will occur only when necessary and their infrastructures used only if inevitable. Nevertheless, their laws will be respected. The State of Kabbalah will be a state without territory that won’t need to fight other states for supremacy, but because of its universal ideal of love, every nation will naturally want to follow its instructions and way of life. (The ghost of Orwell’s “Animal Farm” still seems circling…)
Whoever wishes to enter this new society will have to swear loyalty to its principals and will be allowed to leave whenever he/she wants. The universal religion of “love thy neighbor as thyself” will be the foundation of this new society and everyone will have to work for, and give to, this cause with all his/her heart. The economical principal will be “to give according to one’s abilities and to receive according to one’s needs”. Observance will be controlled by a committee of wise Kabbalists, who will evaluate all particular circumstances and decide which action to take according to their ‘tools of bestowal’ (their connection to the upper will).
http://www.katot.org/Letters/BeneiBaruchReport.asp

Michael Laitman tries to promote his teaching everywhere, through books (he wrote 22 of them)
http://www.kabbalahbooks.info/,
newspaper articles http://www.kabbalah.info/engkab/pressa/index.htm,
daily archived lessons at (www.kabbalamedia.info), and even world meetings such as Arosa
http://www.kabbalah.info/arosa
Films: http://www.arifilms.tv/ari/content/view/full/17934
"Bnei Baruch produces daily live TV broadcasts of Kabbalah lessons and programs for various channels throughout the world. Bnei Baruch also broadcasts live daily video and audio Kabbalah lessons over the Internet with simultaneous translations from Hebrew to English, Russian, and Spanish. The organization established and sustains the largest, most extensive content site on Kabbalah, hosting more than half a million unique visitors ,with more than 2.5 million page views a month, as well as a Newsletter in five languages with 28,000 subscribers. Available on the site are authentic Kabbalah texts in twenty-two languages, and a comprehensive web-based media and text archive, all of which is provided gratis. "

"There are about 800,000 people in the world that study within a framework of our Kabbalah academy. We have recently had a Congress which was attended by people from 34 countries – people with different mentalities, social levels, etc "
http://www.kabbalah.info/engkab/scie...university.htm

Questions to ask yourself is. How much does it costs to have (maybe a 100 gigabytes) of lessons on the web. How many thousands of dollars per month does it cost to broadcast daily on the TV and the web? How many thousands of US dollars does it take to constantly run
congresses and so on? Who is sponsoring them and why? Remember how Kabbalah is against any sort of "self repression" and it demands us to live a full life (including serving the army, for many that will be the Israeli army in which they can kill poor Arabs with King David's honour."

"The modern day Kabbalist must participate in normal daily lives, according to Laitman, including working and serving in the army. (His own daughter is about to enlist.) "
http://www.kabbalah.info/engkab/pressa/j_p_15_6_01.htm

Put 2 + 2 and make your decision.


If I was the head of the Federal Reserve Bank (or the president of America or Israel), I'd fully support Micheal Laitman. He is good for the economy (for consumerist society such as USA) and the military!

By this point it should be clear to anyone the danger and immorality of Kabbalah. May everyone be happy and free! may everyone attain true spirituality in this very life.

The purpose of this text was to reveal what might be going on behind the Bnei Baruch Kabbalah propaganda. Please don't blindly believe me (or them) and check things out for yourself if you are going to join them.

Lucky for me, I am not a person who is easy to hypnotize, even though I was brainwashed by them for a number of years... If I have said anything incorrect, please forgive me.

"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. Do not believe in anything because it is spoken and rumored by many.Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason...then accept it and live up to it."
-The Buddha
 
human1111,

on one hand i'm very saddened by this - i've always found bnei-baruch to be a good web resource for primary information. on the other, from what i've heard from those who have learned with them f2f, i'm inclined to say not so much "i told you so", but more "those who seek 100% verifiable objective certainty are only setting themselves up for a fall." it is a shame that r. laitman is looking like he will have to be added to the long list of teachers i disapprove of, but i thank you for your honesty and candour. i'm sorry you've had this experience, but i can't say i'm terribly surprised. if you feel strongly enough to want to go on the record i suggest you contact the cult-busters at http://www.rickross.com - he's done wonders at exposing the bergs of this world.

a book that might offer you some spiritual comfort is the novel by milton steinberg about r. elisha b. abuya, the famous talmudic heretic: "like a driven leaf". you are not alone in your search for meaning.

another word - don't give up on kabbalah. it is best when integrated 100% into your other spiritual practice and is designed to work with judaism, not separate from it. i encourage you to keep posting here and asking questions.

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
bananabrain said:
human1111,

on one hand i'm very saddened by this - i've always found bnei-baruch to be a good web resource for primary information. on the other, from what i've heard from those who have learned with them f2f, i'm inclined to say not so much "i told you so", but more "those who seek 100% verifiable objective certainty are only setting themselves up for a fall." it is a shame that r. laitman is looking like he will have to be added to the long list of teachers i disapprove of, but i thank you for your honesty and candour. i'm sorry you've had this experience, but i can't say i'm terribly surprised. if you feel strongly enough to want to go on the record i suggest you contact the cult-busters at http://www.rickross.com - he's done wonders at exposing the bergs of this world.

a book that might offer you some spiritual comfort is the novel by milton steinberg about r. elisha b. abuya, the famous talmudic heretic: "like a driven leaf". you are not alone in your search for meaning.

another word - don't give up on kabbalah. it is best when integrated 100% into your other spiritual practice and is designed to work with judaism, not separate from it. i encourage you to keep posting here and asking questions.

b'shalom

bananabrain
Click to expand...

Thank you very much for your kind words. :)
 
kabbalah said:
Kabbalists don't ever talk about their inner sensations. Only certain Kabbalists were permitted to write about the descent of the light downwards and the ascent of the souls upwards in a very general, "objective" way of writing. The reason is that everyone's kli is different and since we are talking about perceiving spirituality as an objective reality, it can only confuse a person to hear a subjective opinion on it.
Click to expand...

This paragraph is reminding me of Jacob's ladder:

"And Jacob went out from Beersheba, and went toward Haran.

And he lighted upon a certain place, and tarried there all night, because the sun was set; and he took of the stones of that place, and put them for his pillows, and lay down in that place to sleep. And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it." - Genesis 28:10-12

Does this have any kabbalist significance related to what you are talking about?
 
I don't know much about Kabbalah except what I see on TV and what little I've been able to find on the internet. I do find mysticism very intriguing.

However this concept of increasing your desire to receive but turning it into receiving for altruistic instead of egotistic reasons seems a bit fishy to me. For example a coke addict could tell you that they don't really like doing cocaine they just do it to keep their dealer in business and to be an example to others of it's negative effects. :rolleyes:

The intent behind receiving pleasure is nearly impossible to objectively determine. I'm not saying that we should forego all pleasures in life only that going to such extremes in anything have proven to be harmful, all things in moderation.

Just my 2 cents, maybe I've misunderstood something. If so, I'd appreciate being corrected.

-R
 
However this concept of increasing your desire to receive but turning it into receiving for altruistic instead of egotistic reasons seems a bit fishy to me.
Click to expand...

it's not about receiving *things* or money or whatever. all talk of 'receiving' should be understood in terms of shef'a, the Divine outflow of compassion, blessing, etc. although many people (particularly the dodgy sort) interpret it more literally - perhaps not surprisingly!

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
I would like to take this dialogue into a disussion about the meaning of Kabbalah .... or at a minimum discuss some specific passages from the Torah, the Zohar or even the Song of Songs as they relate to Kabbalism .... perhaps someone can shed some light on this passage ... Rabbi Pinhas says
A spring of gardens, a well of living water, flows from Lebanon' (Song of Songs 4:15) .... I do not believe that this refers to the place name Lebanon, but Lebanon is used as a symbol .... "a well of living water" .... I was reading the Zohar when this passage caught my attention (I was drawn to it because of the situation with Lebanon right now) ....

in one interpretation of the Song of Songs it is written "an enclosed garden is my sister, my bridge, a hidden well, a sealed spring. Your branches are an orchard of pomegranate trees heavy with fruit, flowering henna and spikenard, spikenard and saffron, cane and cinnamon, with every tree of frankincense, myrrh and aloes, all rare spices. You are a fountain in the gaden, a well of living waters that stream from Lebanon." (Song of Songs 4:12-15)

We must venture beyond "science" into the heart itself, into our very soul to see what this may refer to .... so I am asking others, what do you see?

aloha nui, poh
 
Aloha poh:

It is interesting that you should bring this up. I have also been inquiring of myself just what all of this suddenly hellacious warfare might be about in Lebanon, which was just beginning to culturally blossom again after the terrible times in the 70's.

As with the Balkan Wars, Ethiopia, Afghanistan, Iraq, Timor, Sri Lanka, Sierra Leone, Rwanda, Kashmir etc. these all seems to be some sort of category of deep, culturally-spiritually-based-primal conflicts that go back to the beginnings of various civilizations, so I have come to call them "Ground-of-Being" conflicts. Their basis, I believe, is the primal conflict within the human race which was extensively featured and discussed in the Dead Sea Scrolls," the war between the sons of darkness and the sons of light".

Biblically, of course, men are referred to as "sons of G-d" and women are referred to as "daughters of men". That leads us to believe that there were/are two types of "sons of G-d" those who are of the darkness and those who are of the light. I don't have a figurative handle on what this might really mean other than to refer to the difference in basic personality types which are still recognizable today. For instance Bill Moyers might be a "son of light" and Dick Cheney could be thought of as a "son of darkness". But they are still both human, even though some would likely argue the point one way or the other.

Story threads in Genesis feature this quite prominently, for example the two men that sup with Abraham and the high priest Milchezedek at his tent in the countryside, the tale of Cain and Abel, and the fable of Jacob and Esau. Women are not categorized in this way, but then the Bible is primarily a male-oriented set of literary myths. I don't believe that we may blithely dismiss such mythologies or details since they appear at the roots of at least western civilization, if not also several in Africa, South Asia, and East Asia.

As for Lebanon, the first epic tale ever written down and passed along intergenerationally, was The epic Of Gilgameash. The story dates to the second millenium bce. and is about a mythical quest by two heros of ancient Sumer ( the precursor of Babylon, Assyria, and today's Iraq ). Gilgamesh, I believe was a prince of royal blood, but his companion was not much more than a loyal, animalistic being who was said to "drink water from ditches". Gilgamesh civilized this being through ritualized sexual interactions with courtesans of the royal court. Then they set off on an adventure together to find the source of the sweet waters in their land and it led them to a mountainous region in the north of the region where the cedar trees grew to the sky, likely a reference to the same land as detailed in your quotations from the Song of Songs, and IMO today's Lebanon. Extensive walled gardens where royal and well-to-do families grew all manner of fruitful delights were also a prominent and extensive feature of the lifestyles of the well-off in ancient Sumer, and for that matter, throughout the mid-east in those times.

Gilgamesh and his loyal companion had to fight several fierce guardians of the special place of the great cedar trees before they could triumphantly return to their homeland in Sumer. This tale is still taught extensively in university classics courses to this day. Along with Egypt, Sumer (Iraq) is also generally considered to be one of the two root civilizations of the Western World of today. IMHO, something really BIG is going on and has been for the better part of the past twenty five years. Today's horrific warfare is just the latest episode, and I believe that it all has to do with origins of civilizations in time.

flow....:cool:
 
aloha e flow .... thank you for your thoughts on the stories of Gilgamesh and it seems to me that the essence of these stories stem from the same source as the reference in the Song of Songs .... I believe that the "tree of life" is a metaphor for the human body and the lands to the north as well as the walled gardens are all metaphors that tell us about an ancient path of knowledge which will take each of us to the promised land .... what it takes is a special flow of energy which I believe is the reference to the "sweet water" or "fountain of youth" or even "the stream" .... what I am now sure of is the reference to Lebanon .... I still don't think it is a reference to the place called Lebanon except that we have replicated the ancient knowledge in our outer world to remind us of the inner world .... do you know what the word "Lebanon" actually means???? That might be helpful to understand its reference in the Song of Songs .... aloha nui, poh
 
aloha e poh:

The only way that I might address your question is to refer to Strong's concordance of the KJV Bible. Looking at the word "Lebanon" we find only one reference to its roots in the Chaldean Dictionary. By the way, Chaldean was the root language of the old testament from which the contemporary forms of early Hebrew language were derived, probably during the Babylonian diaspora about 600 bce. The term Chaldean and Hebrew, which is essentially the language really covered in this dictionary, were used interchangeably when the KJV was being translated and composed in England in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries.

There is only one reference to "Lebanon" and it is #3844 "L banoun" which refers to the concept of white mountain(s) of Syria/Palestine , probably from the snow which lies on their summit in the winter . However #3844 also denotes that the word is derived from #'s 3324 & 3325, "lebab" or the "heart" or the most interior organ. There is also a reference that leads from this to #3320 "leb" which is also a conceptual representation for the word "heart", but further refers to represent the concept of feelings, the will or even the intellect...likewise for the center of anything.

So to summarize we might describe the word "Lebanon" as referring to the center of our reality when it comes to where the heart of our matters reside, including our capacities to love, to know, and to feel. Can you imagine why this would cause unlimited warfare ? I know I can't, and probably G-d is shaking His/Her head in disbelief and dismay with what's going on right now among His/Her children in Lebanon.

By the way the name of Gilgamesh's companion was "Enkidu". Enki was the name os the Sumerian creator G-d in ancient times. Also the Chaldean/Hebrew language directly descended from the ancient Sumerian language, at least in large part. The University of Chicago's Oriental Institute began compiling a Sumerian language dictionary a dozen years ago or so, but I do not know where that project stands at this point in time.

aloha nui flow....:(
 
flowperson said:
....There is only one reference to "Lebanon" and it is #3844 "L banoun" which refers to the concept of white mountain(s) of Syria/Palestine , probably from the snow which lies on their summit in the winter . However #3844 also denotes that the word is derived from #'s 3324 & 3325, "lebab" or the "heart" or the most interior organ. There is also a reference that leads from this to #3320 "leb" which is also a conceptual representation for the word "heart", but further refers to represent the concept of feelings, the will or even the intellect...likewise for the center of anything.

So to summarize we might describe the word "Lebanon" as referring to the center of our reality when it comes to where the heart of our matters reside, including our capacities to love, to know, and to feel. Can you imagine why this would cause unlimited warfare ? I know I can't, and probably G-d is shaking His/Her head in disbelief and dismay with what's going on right now among His/Her children in Lebanon....
Click to expand...
Interesting thoughts...but where are most of our battles fought? Don't we as humans constantly have a struggle in our heart the disputes between feelings and the intellect?

What is going on right now appears to be funded/influenced by Iran and Syria (Persia?) on one side and the US (through Israel) on the other. So how do we see these places/societies metaphysically? What do they represent...and what is this battle truly about?
 
I believe that it's about the future and the past, and who gets to control both. A fight for the future mostly between ignorance and enlightenment, intolerance and tolerance, love and hate, you can pick any and all of these, that's what it's about IMO.

flow....:confused:
 
flow - thank you so much for researching the word "Lebanon" .... I saw a reference that the word "lubnan" is one of multiple derivations of white (referring to the white snow, and also the word comes from milk) .... I really like your perspective of the word as the center of our reality when it comes to where the heart of our matters reside .... this concept offers many possibilities as the inner meaning of the verse from the Song of Songs ...

"an enclosed garden is my sister, my bridge, a hidden well, a sealed spring. Your branches are an orchard of pomegranate trees heavy with fruit, flowering henna and spikenard, spikenard and saffron, cane and cinnamon, with every tree of frankincense, myrrh and aloes, all rare spices. You are a fountain in the garden, as well of living waters that stream from Lebanon." (Song of Songs 4:12-15) (this from the Zohar Translatin and Introduction by Daniel Chanon Matt)

the "enclosed garden" and the "bridge" that takes us there .... a garden with trees that are heavy with fruit a place with rare spices .... all watered and fed from the "living waters" that comes from the heart of our very soul ....

if we are the living trees and the "enclosed garden" is that place in us we go in deep meditation .... we must "bridge" the material and spiritual worlds to cross over the bridge .... again, the flow of energy within the human body would be "the living waters" .... I've always thought that this was the ultimate "fountain of youth" or even the "great wave" of the ancient ocean ....

In another excerpt from The Zohar (this one edited by Gershom Scholem) there is a reference to "The Rose of Sharon" (which seems to me to be related to the above reference from the Song of Songs) ...."I am a rose of Sharon, a lily of the valleys" (Cant. 2:1), Rabbi Simeon said: The Holy One, be blessed, bears great love to the Community of Israel, wherefore he constantly praises her, and she, from the store of chants and hymns she keeps for the King, constantly sings his praises. Because she flowers splendidly in the Garden of Eden, the Community of Israel is called rose of Sharon; because here desire is to be watered from the deep stream which is the source of all spiritual rivers,she is called lily of the valleys. " It makes me think that the reference to the "the living waters that stream from Lebanon" is related to the "deep stream which is the source of all spiritual rivers" .... in all of this we are looking at various references and interpretation of the Kabballah .... and the most important thing to remember is related to the hidden meaning of the Torah Rabbi Simeon said: If a man looks upon the Torah as merely a book presenting narratives and everyday matters, alas from him! Such a Torah .... (would be commonplace .... my words here) .... But the Torah, in all of its words,holds supernal truths and sublime secrets..... Woe to the sinners who look upon the Torah as simply tales pertaining to things of the world, seeing thus only the outer garment. But the righteous whose gaze penetrates to the very Torah, happy are they. Just as wine must be in a jar to keep, so the Torah must be contained in an outer garment. That garment is made up of the tales and stories; but we, we are bound to penetrate beyond."

that is why I asked "what do you see" .... collectively can we begin to "see" and penetrate beyond the tales and stories .... you are right flow .... anyone would be shaking their head at the way mankind has interpreted the ancient words and texts as a basis for the foolishness in our outer world .... it is the inner world that we must seek to find peace .... the Torah offers up her secrets to her lover when he is able to penetrate the veil that she hides behind .... that is why she must be pursued with great passion .... that is part of the secret, IMHO, to the "fountain in the garden, a well of living waters that flow from Lebanon" ..... just my thoughts to share .... he hawai'i au, poh
 
Aloha e poh:

Thank you for your uplifting thoughts and words. This thing in Lebanon has really brought me down, and that's pretty hard to do, so your reply is very appreciated here. I'll say more in a day or two. I had a very hard day at work today.

peace and love...flow....:)
 
pohaikawahine said:
flow - thank you so much for researching the word "Lebanon" .... I saw a reference that the word "lubnan" is one of multiple derivations of white (referring to the white snow, and also the word comes from milk) .... I really like your perspective of the word as the center of our reality when it comes to where the heart of our matters reside .... this concept offers many possibilities as the inner meaning of the verse from the Song of Songs ...

"an enclosed garden is my sister, my bridge, a hidden well, a sealed spring. Your branches are an orchard of pomegranate trees heavy with fruit, flowering henna and spikenard, spikenard and saffron, cane and cinnamon, with every tree of frankincense, myrrh and aloes, all rare spices. You are a fountain in the garden, as well of living waters that stream from Lebanon." (Song of Songs 4:12-15) (this from the Zohar Translatin and Introduction by Daniel Chanon Matt)

the "enclosed garden" and the "bridge" that takes us there .... a garden with trees that are heavy with fruit a place with rare spices .... all watered and fed from the "living waters" that comes from the heart of our very soul ....

if we are the living trees and the "enclosed garden" is that place in us we go in deep meditation .... we must "bridge" the material and spiritual worlds to cross over the bridge .... again, the flow of energy within the human body would be "the living waters" .... I've always thought that this was the ultimate "fountain of youth" or even the "great wave" of the ancient ocean ....

In another excerpt from The Zohar (this one edited by Gershom Scholem) there is a reference to "The Rose of Sharon" (which seems to me to be related to the above reference from the Song of Songs) ...."I am a rose of Sharon, a lily of the valleys" (Cant. 2:1), Rabbi Simeon said: The Holy One, be blessed, bears great love to the Community of Israel, wherefore he constantly praises her, and she, from the store of chants and hymns she keeps for the King, constantly sings his praises. Because she flowers splendidly in the Garden of Eden, the Community of Israel is called rose of Sharon; because here desire is to be watered from the deep stream which is the source of all spiritual rivers,she is called lily of the valleys. " It makes me think that the reference to the "the living waters that stream from Lebanon" is related to the "deep stream which is the source of all spiritual rivers" .... in all of this we are looking at various references and interpretation of the Kabballah .... and the most important thing to remember is related to the hidden meaning of the Torah Rabbi Simeon said: If a man looks upon the Torah as merely a book presenting narratives and everyday matters, alas from him! Such a Torah .... (would be commonplace .... my words here) .... But the Torah, in all of its words,holds supernal truths and sublime secrets..... Woe to the sinners who look upon the Torah as simply tales pertaining to things of the world, seeing thus only the outer garment. But the righteous whose gaze penetrates to the very Torah, happy are they. Just as wine must be in a jar to keep, so the Torah must be contained in an outer garment. That garment is made up of the tales and stories; but we, we are bound to penetrate beyond."

that is why I asked "what do you see" .... collectively can we begin to "see" and penetrate beyond the tales and stories .... you are right flow .... anyone would be shaking their head at the way mankind has interpreted the ancient words and texts as a basis for the foolishness in our outer world .... it is the inner world that we must seek to find peace .... the Torah offers up her secrets to her lover when he is able to penetrate the veil that she hides behind .... that is why she must be pursued with great passion .... that is part of the secret, IMHO, to the "fountain in the garden, a well of living waters that flow from Lebanon" ..... just my thoughts to share .... he hawai'i au, poh
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Aloha e poh:

Well, things are better today as they usually are after a bad day. I believe that I pinned down the cause(s) for my blue funk yesterday. I took my Mom out to a breakfast buffet Mon. am and I ate four sausage links. I do eat meat from time to time but not too often because I tend to feel like a 1,000 pound slug afterward for a day or two. I did it to myself, as we all usually do.

There are so many symbolic references in your post that it's difficult to know where to start. I'll start with the fact that the human body is composed of about 89% saltwater, and some other metals, minerals, and organic compounds. But it is saltwater that ties everything together.

About twenty years ago when I began thinking in new ways, I asked myself why I always used salt made from rocks that are millions of years old, when salt made from seawater might be more natural for me. If nothing else the timing of the origins of the salt seemed to make more sense. I switched (even though I use little salt, except when I bake bread) and I have noticed differences in my body and brain function. So yes there are living waters and they are inside each of us. To the extent that we adulterate them with unnatural chemical substances, we really pollute our living waters to an extent, and we become more dead in a sense. I also only drink demineralized distilled water because of a medical condition, and that has seemed to help. For example, taking even smallish amounts of chlorine and flourine (deadly poisons in larger amounts) affects us in cumulative ways, and I believe that some of us are developing allergic sensitivities to such substances as the generations progress.

I use the pseudonym "flow" because of a seminar concerning science and religion I used to participate in during the late 80's and early 90's at the University of Chicago. One of the presenters was a professor of psychology there who has an unpronouncable Polish last name, Everybody called him Mike. He wrote a best selling book in the 80"s titled Flow. It described and analyzed the optimal human mental state for creating original head work, whether it was art, social policy, community projects, religious experiences... it was identified as a separate and distinct mental state that, when entered into, is like no other human experience.

I've done a fair amount of original thinking and writing, and it rang true with me based upon my experiences. It's definitely an altered state of mind, sort of an ecstatic state and feeling, but not quite. And I am given gifts when I am in this state. That's the best I can do to describe it from my experiences. Writers and musicians are known for partaking of copious amounts of alchohol and/or drugs to try and enter altered states. But that's not what we're talking about here. So I believe that the passages you detail are describing in archaic and beautiful terms the psychological phenomena that Mike wrote about in his book when one involuntarily enters "the living waters".

The point at which we best emulate the G-d that created us is when we enter into the "flow of living waters" from which we are all born from our mother's wombs, and in which we all become immersed when we are thinking and acting in ways that were intended for us by G-d. It's what makes us "created co-creators". We feel it, we know it, we want to stay there, but it is only "to be" for the moments intended for us to be there. I believe it to be akin to what shamans experienced in ancient cultures. Castaneda wrote a lot about all this in the 70's. That's just the way I see it.

Now the numerous references to the female attributes of rare spices, the hidden well, the sealed spring, the fountain in the garden, bridges into other realities, bountiful fruits hanging on the trees of walled gardens, may well all be metaphors for sexual experience and how the spiritual joining of male and female souls in a loving relationship may enhance and amplify the "flowing of the living waters" and augment the creative activity. I know that at one time I found all this and more to be true, but it was all ended some time ago by forces beyond either of our control.

In what I have always found to be a revealing episode in the New Testament Jesus is annointed with spikenard and his feet are bathed by Mary (Martha and Lazarus' sister) who uses her hair. I have always been interested (perhaps as suggested in the references to Mary Magdalene in previously suppressed Gnostic writings) whether or not this was metaphorical reference to the fact that Jesus really did have sexual experiences while living a human life. I for one would be very surprised if he hadn't. The fountain reference is also interesting in that this metaphor denotes "origins" in the myths and stories of the Bible, and is often contrasted with the concept of "courts or courtyards" which I believe is a metaphor denoting royalty or civil mechanisms of control in society. This conceptual contrast is extensively examined in Mircea Eliade's book, The Sacred And The Profane.

The Bible emphasizes the goodness of the works of the offsping of loving relationships. Joseph and Benjamin come to mind most prominently.

So poh, my bottom line here is that loving relations between a man and a woman are a good thing for them, for the works they both undertake in their wider community because of the "flowing of the living waters" phenomena that their relations trigger, and of course good for the future because of the offspring that they produce out of their love.

But our realities are so much different than that, eh? The world as it is tears life apart most of the time these days. What a world we have created for the wrong reasons to mess all that up after it all was so lovingly given to all of us so long ago. If only there weren't so many serpents with knives, guns, and bombs, huh ? I believe that Paul Gauguin perhaps had all this in his heart when he entered the "living waters" and artistically recreated the primal stories of Genesis in south Pacific island settings.

mahalo poh, for allowing me the opportunity to write from my heart...

flow...:)
 
One last thought regarding the association of female attributes with "living waters" that I neglected to include in the above post.

The most ancient cultures of the middle east that bordered on the sea all had primal myths that the goddess of love and life first emerged from the sea along the shore, and was "born" of the sea foam. This image persists to this day when one considers mermaid tales featuring Daryl Hannah and cartoon likenesses, not to mention the mermaid statue perched on a rock that perpetually gazes out to sea from the shore of the harbor in Copenhagen.

Couple these images with the fact that the most highly revered mythcal G-d personas among the ancient Sumerians were of the Oannes or "fishmen". This perhaps gives us new insight as to why so many fish symbols appear on the trunks of Hondas and Toyotas these days.

I know, the symbol is supposed to be of Greek origin symbolically designating the name of Jesus "Icyth ", but to my way of thinking when one finds so many synchronous coincidences appearing in one place, one is looking at truth. The Greeks had to have gotten the idea from someplace.

flow....:)
 
aloha e flow - there was so much in your postings, mahalo for sharing something of who you are .... just a few quick notes and then I'll get back to this ....

my reference from The Zohar (Kabbalah) regarding the "flow" of streams (and from the Song of Songs) is much of what you sense and write of .... but the actual "marriage" of female and male energies is the sprialling energies that must merge together in the middle of the brain (that enclosed garden) that that union opens the brain or the mind to the world of spirit, or visions and revelations (in my opinion) .... even in the references to the Torah as a "stately damsel" that is giving messages to her lover and then hides behind the veil and eventually he becomes her husband .... these (again in my opinion) are connected with the concept of how to make those internal energies (female and male) flow and merge .... here is something that I tried to put together related to the reference of the living waters and the same references from Hawaiian mythology .... all related to an ancient line of knowledge ....

KANALOA AND AO AKUA – CLOUD ISLANDS

There were 12 ao akua that belonged to Kane, the primary god of creation. Kanehunamoku was one of the best known of these, for both Kane and a companion deity, Kanaloa, dwelt there. Among their many blessings, Kane and Kanaloa together were responsible for bringing forth water sources to benefit all creatures on Earth. As both gods were avid ‘awa drinkers, they made sure to provide an abundance of freshwater springs and streams for the preparation of their favorite beverage, on Earth as well as in their spirit land. The crystal-fresh water that flowed on Kanehunamoku supported every kind of edible fruit and vegetable plant known to the native people. There was a spring named Kawaiolaakane, whose magical powers restored health and youth, as well as life, to those who properly honored Kane. In this spirit land, all living things flourished with no effort, and everything desirable was there to enjoy.

Two other ao akua were associated with Kanehunamoku – Kuaihelani and Uluhaimalama. Less is known about Uluhaimalama, only that there was a profusion of fragrant flowers that grew in the gardens of this ao akua and that these were carefully attended by two overseers named Uhawao and Uhalaoa.

So when I read of the enclosed garden, the living waters, and the streams that flow in the Zohar and the Song of Songs, they also seem related to the ancient line of knowledge .... even in Hawaiian culture, one must be able to read up to four levels of meaning in a chant or legend to ascertain its essence of its inner or sacred meaning ....

The Zohar, or the Kabbalah, has nothing to do with magic or even science per se .... as far as I can tell, and I am no expert believe me, the Zohar takes one to a deeper understanding of the inner essence of the Torah .... I think, and I may be wrong, that it is more clearly linked to the Oral Torah .... it tells us who we are, it tells us how to reach the promised land, and it tells us what to expect when we get there .... this is the great secret in the circle of stones and the return of the mosiach and the "regathering" .... I suspect that many will think this an off the wall interpretation of the Kabbalah .... but I know what I see in the symbols .... and they are beautiful ....

I would really like to see a thread on Judiasm related to a dialogue on the Zohar .... I don't feel comfortable with the Kabbalah section related to "magic" and "alternative religions" because I know that it has nothing to do with "magic" .... it has everything to do with "truth" and "ancient knowledge" .... but I feel like a novice in addressing The Zohar and I am humble in its shadow .... I do know however that my teacher will appear because I am certainly ready to learn more ....

my hawaiian name "poh" for short is actually "pohaikawahine" which means a "circle of women" .... but it is related to more, it is related to a circle of twelve women who hold the ancient knowledge .... it is through this that I enter the world of the Zohar and Kabbalah .... and have grown to deeply respect and love the Torah .... he hawai'i au, poh
 
aloha e poh:

Thank you for your response. Yes, I agree that this all is not about magic, but about trying to observe what may be behind the veil that we were/are not intended to see. IMHO that's because our Creator wants it that way, and besides too much knowledge in the hands of irresponsible beings is always destructive in the end.

On another thread I posited the known facts that matriarchy governed most ancient societies at the community level prior to about 6,000 years ago. These are well researched and accepted facts uncovered and published by cultural anthropologists over the past decades. This fact of matriarchical wisdom and community governance was true for much of the ancient world long before organized combat and empire building became the norm in male-directed, city-state societies around the Mediterranean. So I am in agreement with your approach and the significance of your on-line name. As we all know, circles have no end.

Your brief narrative concerning the "Cloud Island" creation myth rang so true with many others that I have read and studied. Do you know if this refers to one of the Hawaiian Islands, or perhaps some other(s) in the Pacific region ? I was also struck in several respects by its similarity to the Genesis stories. I was especially amazed at the name of the principal Creator G-d, Kane. The similarity to Adam's son Cain is also remarkable. Do you know if information regarding music is associated with this deity of your culture ?

I read an article the other day regarding research which found that in neolithic times (5,000 years ago) the first ocean migration from the old world which ultimately resulted in the population of the Pacific region by the Polynesian people was by boat from SE China across the Formosa Straits (about 100 miles) to what is now Taiwan, and from there to Melanesia, Micronesia, and even Hawaii over the next few thousand years. This theory of cultural history was stitched together by archaeologists in several locations, so it's probably fairly reliable.

Now about your statement that science has little to do with sacred things. Having been closely associated with talented researchers for a good part of my life, I would say that their work is sacred in many ways because their work helps to reveal secrets of nature which allow humanity's progress into the future. The problems come into play when governments and businesses get into the act and turn sacred knowledge into profane uses. This is unavoidable I'm afraid. But perhaps it's all part of a larger design put into place over eternity to benefit believers in torah which was inspired by the One that made all of us in the beginning ?

Peace to you, poh...flow....:)
 
peace to you also flow .... science certainly has its place in and I agree with your statement about sacredness, it is just that I don't see science in the opening of our "inner seeing" to be able to ascertain the depth of the ancient ocean of knowledge .... but who knows, we each have our own perspectives ....

bb if you are reading this I would like your perspective on the following references (texts)(from Beholders of Divine Secrets, Mysticism and Myth in the Hekhalot and Merkavah Literature) by Vita Daphna Arbel (this was a book that emerged from a doctoral thesis, written in Hebrew, submitted to the Herbrew University in Jerusalem in 1997) .... she doesn't speak of The Zohar or even Kabbalah, but references Hekhalot Rabbati (The Greater Book fo Hekhalot), Hekhalot Zutarti (The Lesser Book of Hekhalot), Ma'aseh Merkavah (The Works of the Chariot), Sefer Hekhalot (The Book of Hekhalot) also entitled the Hebrew Book of Enoch or 3 Enoch, the Shi-ur Komah tgraditions (Measurements of the Divine Body), various fragments known as Shivhei Metatron, and several texts found in the Cairo Genizah.....

she also states that "descenders to the Merkavah are associated with traditional Jewish teachings, culture, ethics and conventional forms of study. The main visionaries .... are esteemed tannaitic sages whose traditional scholarly knowledge is very apparent. ...... (yet) .... despite the emphasis on rabbinic education and tradition, several spects of Merkavah mysticism stand in tension with aspects of rabbinic Judaism...... Primary illustrations are attitudes towards the concepts of revelation and communication with God. A central notion in traditional Judaism defines the relationship between God and human beings around the divinely initiated revelation at Sinai and its continuous manifestation in the Torah, which emobidies everything relevant for understanding the world and God. This traditional view is substituted in Hekhalot and Merkavah mysticism with an alternative religious option which emphasizes personal, mystical encounters with God and the heavenly realm, initiated by humans."

In Hekhalot Zutarti and Hekhalot Rabbati there are references to the "seven palaces" and there are travelers such as Rabbi Akiva, Ben Azai, and Ben Zoma and Aher .... and when they enter the sixth palace (which I would consider the realm of the third eye) they have a vision of "thousands upon thousands of waves of water" yet "there is not a single drop of water there, only the radiance of the marble stones with which the palace is furnished" .... the test lies in who is able to behold the vision and decode its meaning .... of the four it was only Rabbi Akiva was "able to see the marble stones behind the misleading facade of waves and water."

It seems to me that "to see the marble stones behind the misleading facade of waves and water" is similar to the concept that one must look behind the outer garment to see the Torah and all her shining beauty and knowledge .... books such as the Zohar, concepts such as Kaballah are all about this same path to wisdom or knowledge .... I suppose if I were to simplify it in my own culture,it would simply be those that carry the torch and find their way along the path of the night rainbow .... we are all slaves as long as we continue to look outside for our source of strength or for others to lead us, we find freedom when we return within .... I know it probably sounds too simply, but that is the path to take us through the wilderness and the exodus to the promised land .... "and the women danced" ..... and we can each answer Rabbi Akiva's question:

Who is able to contemplate the seven palaces
and behold the heaven of heavens
and see the chambers of chambers
and say: "I saw the chamber of YH?"

The seventh palace is situated at the heavenly end of the cosmic pole and thus we hear "the heavenly ladder with its one end on earth and one end on the right foot of the throne of glory" .... maybe that is why Rabbi Yehudah Lev Ashland (1886-1955) was known as "Master of the Ladder". He Hawai'i Au,poh
 
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