what did jesus say (and what not?)

dayaa

dayaa

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hello everyone
many muslim scholars commenting on the bible say that jesus never actually claimed to be the son of God. i have seen some quotes around here somewhere, although i can't remember where, where jesus definitely does admit to being the son of God. could someone please repeat these quotes for me.
i also tend to feel a bit suspicious about paul's involvement in christian doctrine and i have heard it quoted that jesus said something like: do not go unto the gentiles, a feeling which is echoed in the islam by saying that jesus only came for the jews not for all mankind. could someone please find the exact quote for me and if it is true that jesus said that, can you explain on what authority paul took christianity to the gentiles, or did jesus change his mind?
thankyou:confused:
 
dayaa said:
hello everyone
many muslim scholars commenting on the bible say that jesus never actually claimed to be the son of God. i have seen some quotes around here somewhere, although i can't remember where, where jesus definitely does admit to being the son of God. could someone please repeat these quotes for me.
i also tend to feel a bit suspicious about paul's involvement in christian doctrine and i have heard it quoted that jesus said something like: do not go unto the gentiles, a feeling which is echoed in the islam by saying that jesus only came for the jews not for all mankind. could someone please find the exact quote for me and if it is true that jesus said that, can you explain on what authority paul took christianity to the gentiles, or did jesus change his mind?
thankyou:confused:
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Hello Dayaa, and welcome.

Jesus probably felt more freedom in Samaria about disclosing His identity. Messianic expectations were quite subdued since the Samaritans believed only in the Pentateuch. Jesus therefore revealed to the woman at the well, “I who speak to you am He” (John 4:26). There was no question about it. Jesus clearly declared Himself to be the Messiah.



Another declaration of Jesus that He was the Messiah occurred at His trial before the high priest Caiaphas, the chief priests, and the elders andscribes (Matthew 26:57-68; Mark 14:53-65). In Mark's account, the high priest finally asked Jesus directly, "Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?" and Jesus responded, "I am; and you shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming with the clouds of heaven." Notice that Jesus clearly spoke of Himself.



Teaching and ministering to the gentiles:



Then Jesus went out from there and departed to the region of Tyre and Sidon. And behold, a woman of Canaan came from that region and cried out to Him, saying, “Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! My daughter is severely demon-possessed.”

a. To the region of Tyre and Sidon: Tyre and Sidon were Gentile cities, located some 50 miles away. Jesus went all this way to meet this one Gentile woman’s need. What love this shows, and to a woman of Canaan!

b. Have mercy on me . . . My daughter is severely demon-possessed: This woman comes to intercede for her daughter, and she provides a picture of an intercessor. She makes her daughter’s needs her own.

c. O Lord, Son of David! This Gentile woman also understands who Jesus is. Many of Jesus’ own countrymen didn’t know who Jesus was, but this woman of Canaan knew.

2. (23-28) Jesus heals the Gentile woman’s daughter.

But He answered her not a word. And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, “Send her away, for she cries out after us.” But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, “Lord, help me!” But He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the little dogs.” And she said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the little dogs eat the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.” Then Jesus answered and said to her, “O woman, great is your faith! Let it be to you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

a. I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel: Jesus defined the focus of His mission of to this Gentile woman, and makes it clear that He was not sent to Gentiles like her.

b. Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, “Lord, help me!” The woman provides another picture of a dedicated intercessor by her persistence.

c. It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the little dogs: When Jesus called her one of the little dogs, He used little as a term of endearment. This softened the traditional Jewish slur towards Gentiles, which called them dogs in the most derogatory sense.

d. Yes, Lord, yet even the little dogs eat the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table: The woman responds with great faith. She admits her low estate, and did not debate the issue when Jesus called her one of the little dogs. She asked Jesus to deal with her on her own low level - and so she received from Jesus. No wonder Jesus said, O woman, great is your faith!


v/r

Q
 
dayaa said:
hello everyone
many muslim scholars commenting on the bible say that jesus never actually claimed to be the son of God. i have seen some quotes around here somewhere, although i can't remember where, where jesus definitely does admit to being the son of God. could someone please repeat these quotes for me.
i also tend to feel a bit suspicious about paul's involvement in christian doctrine and i have heard it quoted that jesus said something like: do not go unto the gentiles, a feeling which is echoed in the islam by saying that jesus only came for the jews not for all mankind. could someone please find the exact quote for me and if it is true that jesus said that, can you explain on what authority paul took christianity to the gentiles, or did jesus change his mind?
thankyou:confused:
Click to expand...
Matthew 10:5-7 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'

This is the verse you were quoting.. but read on.

Matthew 12:21 And in His name Gentiles will trust

Luke 2:30-32 For my eyes have seen Your salvation Which You have prepared before the face of all peoples, A light to bring revelation to the Gentiles, And the glory of Your people Israel."

Acts 9:15-16 But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name's sake."

*this was about Paul written by Luke; the authority is Jesus Christ.

Acts 10:45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.

Acts 11:18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life."

Acts goes on and on about the gentiles

Lets look at what the OT says about Jesus and the gentiles

Isaiah 11:10 "And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse, Who shall stand as a banner to the people; For the Gentiles shall seek Him, And His resting place shall be glorious."

Isaiah 42:6 "I, the Lord, have called You in righteousness, And will hold Your hand; I will keep You and give You as a covenant to the people, As a light to the Gentiles

Isaiah 49:6 Indeed He says, 'It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant To raise up the tribes of Jacob, And to restore the preserved ones of Israel; I will also give You as a light to the Gentiles, That You should be My salvation to the ends of the earth.' "

Isaiah 60:3 The Gentiles shall come to your light, And kings to the brightness of your rising.

Isaiah 66:19 I will set a sign among them; and those among them who escape I will send to the nations: to Tarshish and Pul and Lud, who draw the bow, and Tubal and Javan, to the coastlands afar off who have not heard My fame nor seen My glory. And they shall declare My glory among the Gentiles.

The demons and lucifer himself referred to Jesus as the Son of God as did Jesus Himself did.. I do not know one single place where Jesus said He was NOT the Son of God.

Luke 4:12-13 And Jesus answered and said to him, "It has been said, 'You shall not tempt the Lord your God.' " Now when the devil had ended every temptation, he departed from Him until an opportune time.

I will go one step further that while satan was temping Jesus.. Jesus said "You shall not tempt the Lord your God.. then the devil had ended every temptation and departed. Jesus was there not only claiming to be the Son of God but also God Himself.

Luke 12:8 Also I say to you, whoever confesses Me before men, him the Son of Man also will confess before the angels of God.

Luke 22:70-71 Hereafter the Son of Man will sit on the right hand of the power of God." Then they all said, "Are You then the Son of God?" So He said to them, "You rightly say that I am." And they said, "What further testimony do we need? For we have heard it ourselves from His own mouth."

John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

John 3:18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.

John 6:69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

John 9:35-38 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when He had found him, He said to him, "Do you believe in the Son of God?" He answered and said, "Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?" And Jesus said to him, "You have both seen Him and it is He who is talking with you." Then he said, "Lord, I believe!" And he worshiped Him.

John 10:36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?

John 11:14 When Jesus heard that, He said, "This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God may be glorified through it."

well theres many more like this where Jesus claimed to be the Son of God and others recognized this fact.
 
hello again
thank you so much for the information provided above. it was very informative. i have made a start trying to read the bible....but there's a lot of it and if you don't know exactly what you are looking for or where, it is very time consuming.
it looks to me as if some people have been taking quotes that suit their argument and using them out of context. thankyou.....you have just shattered some of my pre-conceived ideas, and given me encouragement to persevere in my reading:)
 
dayaa said:
hello again
thank you so much for the information provided above. it was very informative. i have made a start trying to read the bible....but there's a lot of it and if you don't know exactly what you are looking for or where, it is very time consuming.
it looks to me as if some people have been taking quotes that suit their argument and using them out of context. thankyou.....you have just shattered some of my pre-conceived ideas, and given me encouragement to persevere in my reading:)
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Dayaa, Good Evening.

May I suggest that you not worry about who said what, where, here on CR. If You want to start with the Bible, start with the Gospel according to John. Then if you are so inclined, look at Matthew, then Luke, then Mark. They each tell the same story from a different perspective. Some people just can't identify with two or more of the Gospels. But John seems to appeal to all, as a start.

The (Christian) Bible is not a book one begins to read at page 1. The reason for that is weird but interesting. John is easy on the mind. Like an introduction, but not...Most people like to identify with John's way of writing, in the beginning of their Bible studies.

Anyway, I hope you find it interesting and intriguing.

God Speed to you, and "Allah akh Bar".

v/r

Q
 
dayaa said:
hello again
thank you so much for the information provided above. it was very informative. i have made a start trying to read the bible....but there's a lot of it and if you don't know exactly what you are looking for or where, it is very time consuming.
it looks to me as if some people have been taking quotes that suit their argument and using them out of context. thankyou.....you have just shattered some of my pre-conceived ideas, and given me encouragement to persevere in my reading:)
Click to expand...
In addition to John.. might I suggest reading Psalms in the Old Testament. Its very soothing to the soul to read and I find great comfort in the promises that lay within.

There is a lot of misquoting of the bible to makes ones point against it... I always encourage people to ask questions and I try to help them find the answers they seek.

A resource that I use to help me find things quickly in the bibe and which I use a lot on CR is a site called www.crosswalk.com ... if you click on bible study tools there is most every version of the bible right there and you can type phrases in for example Son of God and it lists every verse that has Son of God in it. The site also has a hebrew and greek lexicon and a parallel bible option.

Good luck in your searches and feel free to ask any questions. :)
 
hello again and thank you for replies.
i didn't mean people had said those things here....i meant i have heard them generally from other sources. i wasn't meaning to blame anyone here. so far everyone here seems to be very helpful and genuine. there seems to be a very healthy attitude with many people with very genuine beliefs yet willing to discuss anything:)
if only all the world could debate freely and respectfully like here i think we would have a lot less problems!
i will certainly be back here on and off with various questions and ideas as they arise, and thanks to all for the welcome:)
 
not just Jesus, but I think quite a few others declared him as Son of God too.

i think the only time Jesus ever even thought of changing his mind was when he asked God for the cup to pass him, if it were possible.
Peter also preached to the gentiles. You just have to follow the whole story is all.
 
It's great to hear that you're searching the Bible for answers, dayaa. Keep searching and you will find answers. I know this is true because God has shown me so many things through His Word (the Bible).
 
dayaa...

two years ago i picked up a Qu'ran for the first time and the task of learning about Islam through this text seemed extremely daunting. but i had the help of some muslim friends who were able to guide me along and i've learned many things to broaden my horizons and have expanded my knowledge greatly. q made a good suggestion in starting your search in the gospel of john. as this is my first post i hope that i do not break any rules or anything (i have read the rules for posting) when i offer you another resource which has helped in my personal studies. it is a book titled Jesus Christ The Greatest Life. It is an account of the life of Jesus Christ, blended together from the four gospels according to Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John. In addition to providing an in-depth, purely scriptural chronology for the events surrounding Christ's life, death and subsequent resurrection, it also includes many interesting insights into His life and work through sidenotes and a unique design and layout. It was compiled and translated by Johnston M. Cheney and Stanley Ellison Th.D. May your search for knowledge be as fruitful as mine and your thirst ever mounting.
 
Kindest Regards, all!

My compliments to dayaa for having the courage and wisdom to seek understanding. It is the kind of lesson that is valuable to all of us.

I wanted to add my two cents on a couple of things:
Yes, Lord, yet even the little dogs eat the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table
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I struggled with the understanding of this for a long time. One day it dawned on me, very close to how Q spelled the meaning out. If one casts their bread upon the water, who knows what creature will benefit. Perhaps a person casts that bread intending to feed the ducks, but some portion (God only knows how much) will also feed the fish. It is all good. I think there are several examples to demonstrate, Jesus intended his teachings to be primarily for the Jews. However, his teachings were so powerful and true, that Gentiles also recieved blessing from his instruction. The bread may have been intended for the children at the table, but the dogs received blessing from the overflow that found its way to the floor.

Or as the Roman soldier said at the crucifiction, "truly this is the son of God!"

Another thing I would like to address concerns the children of the lost house of Israel. In Biblical history, Israel became divided after the death of Solomon. In time, 10 of the 12 tribes were scattered to the wind, carried away into captivity (I seem to recall this was at the hands of the Assyrians). The Samaritans, as I understand it, comprise a very small portion of those lost sheep. There are many more that went on to become lost in the annals of history, the descendants today not recognizing themselves for their lineage. I am of the opinion a great many of these lost sheep of Israel went on to populate large portions of Europe. The short version of this story is that Christianity, the teachings of Jesus, did go on to influence the lost house of Israel, as most of Europe has long been Christian. Perhaps considered gentiles in the strictest sense, but long lost cousins to the house of Judah just the same.

My two cents.
 
juantoo3 said:
...Another thing I would like to address concerns the children of the lost house of Israel. In Biblical history, Israel became divided after the death of Solomon. In time, 10 of the 12 tribes were scattered to the wind, carried away into captivity (I seem to recall this was at the hands of the Assyrians). The Samaritans, as I understand it, comprise a very small portion of those lost sheep. There are many more that went on to become lost in the annals of history, the descendants today not recognizing themselves for their lineage. I am of the opinion a great many of these lost sheep of Israel went on to populate large portions of Europe. The short version of this story is that Christianity, the teachings of Jesus, did go on to influence the lost house of Israel, as most of Europe has long been Christian. Perhaps considered gentiles in the strictest sense, but long lost cousins to the house of Judah just the same.

My two cents.
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Good morning Juan!

I too read some interesting things about the "legends" of the lost tribes of Israel. Denmark for example, seems to come from the phrase "Dan's Mark". The Saxons that migrated to Great Britan seem to have been a shortened phrase of "Issac's sons". Then there is Epheriam and Manasseh tied to Britan and America, Reuben to the French...

hmmm

v/r

Q
 
hello everyone again

i feel a bit sheepish....(no pun intended)....i just thought i ought to be clear....i feel a bit as if i am being welcomed in the christian section of this site as a "wannabe christian".....which isn't strictly true. i'm a "wannabe on the right path" and exploring the options and still very confused. i might end up christian...there again i might not....i don't know yet. still....thanks for welcoming me anyway.....i do feel comfortable here:)
 
dayaa said:
hello everyone again

i feel a bit sheepish....(no pun intended)....i just thought i ought to be clear....i feel a bit as if i am being welcomed in the christian section of this site as a "wannabe christian".....which isn't strictly true. i'm a "wannabe on the right path" and exploring the options and still very confused. i might end up christian...there again i might not....i don't know yet. still....thanks for welcoming me anyway.....i do feel comfortable here:)
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i think the welcomes are more as a seeker than as a believer in any faith in particular. one thing seems to hold true through most posts in this thread, people commend you for your yearning for knowledge and your search for the truth, not that you're a christian or will be a christian. whatever faith you choose i'm sure will be right for you in that you will have questioned what should have questioned and found the answers that you sought. seek and ye shall find. and whether you find your belief to be exactly the same as mine or not, may you be praised for seeking to begin with! peace be unto you.
 
dayaa said:
hello everyone again

...i'm a "wannabe on the right path" and exploring the options and still very confused. i might end up christian...there again i might not....i don't know yet. still....thanks for welcoming me anyway.....i do feel comfortable here:)
Click to expand...
That is as it should be. I hope you do find your way. I think God hinders no man for searching, regardless of where that search takes him. It is the journey, not the journey's end that makes us grow...n'est pas? ;)

v/r

Q
 
I cannot speak about anyone else but I didnt assume you were interested in converting.. I just knew you had questions you wanted cleared up. I appreciate your openess to try to clear up misconceptions :)

Matthew 7:7 "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.

Your post made me think of this scripture :)


 
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