Purgatory

T

truthseeker

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Hello Folks.

What is Purgatory? Where did this concept come from? What makes this concept valid? Why is it only in the Catholic faith and not in the Protestant Churches?
 
truthseeker said:
Hello Folks.

What is Purgatory? Where did this concept come from? What makes this concept valid? Why is it only in the Catholic faith and not in the Protestant Churches?

Purgatory is not originally a Catholic (or Christian generally) concept. It was brought to the forefront in the Books of Macabees (1 and 2), which were in the Bible until the first reformation. Macabees is an old testement set of scriptures, hence of Jewish origins. Though the protestants removed the two books, it is still part of the Latin Vulgate (catholic version of the Bible). It is a place where the saved man (who's works have failed the test), goes for final purification prior to entering Heaven.

Purgatory:

Christ refers to the sinner who "will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come" (Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins. Similarly, Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test? "He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3:15). Now this loss, this penalty, can’t refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can’t be meant, since there is no suffering ("fire") there. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory alone explains this passage.

Then, of course, there is the Bible’s approval of prayers for the dead: "In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the dead to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin" (2 Macc. 12:43–45). Prayers are not needed by those in heaven, and no one can help those in hell. That means some people must be in a third condition, at least temporarily. This verse so clearly illustrates the existence of purgatory that, at the time of the Reformation, Protestants had to cut the books of the Maccabees out of their Bibles in order to avoid accepting the doctrine.

Prayers for the dead and the consequent doctrine of purgatory have been part of the true religion since before the time of Christ. Not only can we show it was practiced by the Jews of the time of the Maccabees, but it has even been retained by Orthodox Jews today, who recite a prayer known as the Mourner’s Kaddish for eleven months after the death of a loved one so that the loved one may be purified. It was not the Catholic Church that added the doctrine of purgatory. Rather, any change in the original teaching has taken place in the Protestant churches, which rejected a doctrine that had always been believed by Jews and Christians.


Hope this helps.

v/r

Q
 
Interesting Q. Thank you for the information. Actually, the idea of a purgatory always did seem necessary for a literal interpretation of the Bible, in my view, because of the NT passages you pointed out. Didn't know about the Maccabees part.

I pray for my loved ones who have died because they are still in my heart and still very much "alive." Whether they *need* my prayers or not I don't know.

peace,
lunamoth
 
regarding death after christ...i believe that when a person dies, the soul sleeps. during jesus' 2nd coming, all souls that believed in him will then be lifted up into heaven. when it is said that a person dies and is immediately with God in heaven, it is because if your soul is asleep, then there is no notice of time passing; therefore hundreds of years are non-existent, rather you die and the next thing you know you are in heaven or the bad place.
 
BlaznFattyz said:
regarding death after christ...i believe that when a person dies, the soul sleeps. during jesus' 2nd coming, all souls that believed in him will then be lifted up into heaven. when it is said that a person dies and is immediately with God in heaven, it is because if your soul is asleep, then there is no notice of time passing; therefore hundreds of years are non-existent, rather you die and the next thing you know you are in heaven or the bad place.

"For a day of God's time is a 1000 of man's years and a day of man's time is a 1000 of God's years."

Time is irrelevant, I agree. But when God says I will take you up immediately, I think His "immediately" is faster than our concept could ever come close to.

v/r

Q
 
Thank you for the explaination for purgatory, Quahom.

I can't say that my mind is clear on it. I guess that is something you just have to believe in and not try to see it in a logical manner. :confused:
 
truthseeker said:
Thank you for the explaination for purgatory, Quahom.

I can't say that my mind is clear on it. I guess that is something you just have to believe in and not try to see it in a logical manner. :confused:

No sweat. ;)
 
First off great answer Q

truthseeker said:
Thank you for the explaination for purgatory, Quahom.

I can't say that my mind is clear on it. I guess that is something you just have to believe in and not try to see it in a logical manner. :confused:

It is very logical though. the idea is that there is no sin in heaven yet nearly everyone (some would say everyone) is still attached to their sinful actions when they die. We must be perfect to enter heaven but few (an again some would say none) reach perfection on earth. So either everyone who doesn't reach perfection goes to Hell or they are perfected after they die. People who believe in purgatory think, God allows those who haven't rejected that perfection but still haven’t achieved it to achieve it rather than letting them remain in eternal damnation.
 
I know this. I will spend time in purgatory, before I enter the gates of Heaven.

I understand why, and accept it.

v/r

Q
 
Quahom1 said:
I know this. I will spend time in purgatory, before I enter the gates of Heaven.

I understand why, and accept it.

v/r

Q
Good I just wanted to say that my post wasn't a response to what you wrote but to what truthseeker said that is why I quoted him don't think I was implying anything about you. My original address to you was a compliment nothing more.
 
Now I understand!

You'll have to excuse me, Quahom. I was completely clueless so JJM's post helped me to understand yours. Now that the lights are on, I think I'll make soup...
 
Purgatory is mostly a medieval concept. It's best known from Dante's Divina Commedia. Sinners go directly to hell, saints directly to heaven. For average people, there's a place inbetween heaven and hell: the purgatory. It's a mountain you have to climb, where you have to pay for your sins. When your sins are washed away, you can step through the fire at the top of the mountain without getting burned, to enter Paradise.

Protestants don't use it, because it has pagan roots, it's not or hardly based on the Bible.
 
queenofsheba said:
Purgatory is mostly a medieval concept. It's best known from Dante's Divina Commedia. Sinners go directly to hell, saints directly to heaven. For average people, there's a place inbetween heaven and hell: the purgatory. It's a mountain you have to climb, where you have to pay for your sins. When your sins are washed away, you can step through the fire at the top of the mountain without getting burned, to enter Paradise.

Protestants don't use it, because it has pagan roots, it's not or hardly based on the Bible.

Well, if Medieval precedes the Jews, then you are correct. Dantes was an entertainer, not a theologian. The concept of purgatory precedes Christianity by the Jews by about 1000 years, which makes the concept over three thousand years old (about 2500 years past Dantes).

The rest of what you say, I tend to agree with in principle.

v/r

Q

btw, the Medieval times did not occur until after the fall of Pax Roma circa 552 AD.
 
queenofsheba said:
Purgatory is mostly a medieval concept. It's best known from Dante's Divina Commedia. Sinners go directly to hell, saints directly to heaven. For average people, there's a place inbetween heaven and hell: the purgatory. It's a mountain you have to climb, where you have to pay for your sins. When your sins are washed away, you can step through the fire at the top of the mountain without getting burned, to enter Paradise.

Protestants don't use it, because it has pagan roots, it's not or hardly based on the Bible.
This was written in the second century before the middle ages.

"And after the exhibition, Tryphaena again receives her. For her daughter Falconilla had died, and said to her in a dream: Mother, thou shaft have this stranger Thecla in my place, in order that she may pray concerning me, and that I may be transferred to the place of the just." Acts of Paul and Thecla (A.D. 160).

Well consider this, no one leaves Hell. This person is dead, yet to enter heaven, but still has the capability to. Where is she?
 
CATHOLICISM - PURGATORY







Perhaps one of the most unique doctrines of Catholicism is that of purgatory. Purgatory is a place of burning torment and suffering that follows physical death, but precedes heaven. According to Catholic doctrine, the blood of Jesus cleanses us from original sin – that is, the sin inherent in humans that occurred via the fall in the Garden of Eden. Each individual commits sins on top of the original sin, for which only the sinner may atone. This is achieved partly through penance and adherence to the sacraments during their lifetime. The remaining blemishes of sin must be cleansed through the fires of purgatory, prior to entering heaven. One can think of it in terms of twisted halfway house where one must be sufficiently tortured before being allowed to matriculate into decent society. The Catholic Encyclopedia defines purgatory this way:





Purgatory (Lat., "purgare", to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.



All sins are not equal before God, nor dare anyone assert that the daily faults of human frailty will be punished with the same severity that is meted out to serious violation of God's law. On the other hand whosoever comes into God's presence must be perfectly pure for in the strictest sense His "eyes are too pure, to behold evil" (Hab., i, 13). For unrepented venial faults for the payment of temporal punishment due to sin at time of death, the Church has always taught the doctrine of purgatory.



The Catholic Church teaches that faithful Catholics should pray for their loved ones who are in purgatory, in order to hasten their purification and allow them to go on to Heaven sooner.



The Catholic doctrine of purgatory supposes the fact that some die with smaller faults for which there was no true repentance, and also the fact that the temporal penalty due to sin is it times not wholly paid in this life. The proofs for the Catholic position, both in Scripture and in Tradition, are bound up also with the practice of praying for the dead. For why pray for the dead, if there be no belief in the power of prayer to afford solace to those who as yet are excluded from the sight of God? So true is this position that prayers for the dead and the existence of a place of purgation are mentioned in conjunction in the oldest passages of the Fathers, who allege reasons for succouring departed souls. Those who have opposed the doctrine of purgatory have confessed that prayers for the dead would be an unanswerable argument if the modern doctrine of a "particular judgment" had been received in the early ages.

The “proofs” used by the Catholic Church to support the doctrine of purgatory come from Catholic Tradition (the writings of the Popes and saints) as opposed to Biblical scripture. This isn’t to say that they have not attempted to support the doctrine Biblically. The following passage from the Catholic Encyclopedia provides what it describes as proof from the Old Testament of the Bible. However, this “proof” comes from the Apocrypha. As stated in another section, the Apocrypha, or “Deuterocanonical Books” are hotly contested and are only found in the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Bibles. Most Protestants and Jews have disregarded the Apocrypha as scripture, due to numerous chronological and other errors that cast doubt on divine inspiration. During the Protestant reformation, Luther sided with Jerome, the translator of the Latin Vulgate, in deciding that the Apocryphal books should not be considered Scripture. Jerome gave his support to the Israel/Palestine Jews who rejected the Apocrypha instead of the Hellenistic Jews who readily embraced these books. While the inclusion of the Apocrypha had been decided at the Councils of Hippo and Carthage late in the fourth century, Luther's action caused the Roman Catholic Church to react by reaffirming the canonicity of the Apocrypha at the Council of Trent in 1546. It is largely based on these books that the Catholic Church supports their peculiar doctrines, including the doctrine of purgatory. The passages mentioned below are found in the Apocrypha:



The tradition of the Jews is put forth with precision and clearness in II Maccabees. Judas, the commander of the forces of Israel, "making a gathering . . . sent twelve thousand drachmas of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead). And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them. "It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins" (II Mach., xii, 43-46). At the time of the Maccabees the leaders of the people of God had no hesitation in asserting the efficacy of prayers offered for the dead, in order that those who had departed this life might find pardon for their sins and the hope of eternal resurrection.








There are several passages in the New Testament that point to a process of purification after death. Thus, Jesus Christ declares (Matthew 12:32): "And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come." According to St. Isidore of Seville (Deord. creatur., c. xiv, n. 6) these words prove that in the next life "some sins wil be forgiven and purged away by a certain purifying fire." St. Augustine also argues "that some sinners are not forgiven either in this world or in the next would not be truly said unless there were other [sinners] who, though not forgiven in this world, are forgiven in the world to come" (De Civ. Dei, XXI, xxiv). The same interpretation is given by Gregory the Great (Dial., IV, xxxix); St. Bede (commentary on this text); St. Bernard (Sermo lxvi in Cantic., n. 11) and other eminent theological writers.

A further argument is supplied by St. Paul in I Cor., iii, 11-15: "For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay stubble: Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire." While this passage presents considerable difficulty, it is regarded by many of the Fathers and theologians as evidence for the existence of an intermediate state in which the dross of lighter transgressions will be burnt away, and the soul thus purified will be saved.

I’ll admit I’m somewhat at a loss as to how best address their interpretation of the scripture above – mostly because I don’t know what logic they used to twist these meanings out of those verses. As for the passage from Paul’s first letter to the Corinthians, one should back up and start on verse 10, where Paul says he laid a foundation as an expert builder, by the grace God gave him. Gold, silver, and precious stones represent durable work that will stand the test of divine judgment. Wood, hay, or straw denotes worthless work that will not stand the test, and are consumed by fire. The work of some believers will stand the test while that of others will disappear – emphasizing the importance of teaching the pure word of God. As for the last verse that reads that he shall escape, yet so as by fire. In the New International Version of the Bible, it reads, “he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through flames.” The best interpretation indicates that the original language was a Greek proverbial phrase, which means, “by a narrow escape”. A modern equivalent might be, “escaped by the skin of his teeth”. Paul is really trying to drive home this point: Okay, so you’ve been saved. Great. Wonderful. What are you going to do with this opportunity? Will you squander it, or will you live a life in service to your Lord?

One of the stranger aspects of purgatory is the belief that one can pray to the souls of loved ones who are in purgatory, and ask for intercession. Some believe that the souls in purgatory can pray for and intercede in the lives of the living. Here is what the Catholic Encyclopedia has to say on the matter:

Do the souls in purgatory pray for us? May we call upon them in our needs? There is no decision of the Church on this subject, nor have the theologians pronounced with definiteness concerning the invocation of the souls in purgatory and their intercession for the living. In the ancient liturgies there are no prayers of the Church directed to those who are still in purgatory. On the tombs of the early Christians nothing is more common than a prayer or a supplication asking the departed to intercede with God for surviving friends, but these inscriptions seem always to suppose that the departed one is already with God. St. Thomas (II-II:83:11) denies that the souls in purgatory pray for the living, and states they are not in a position to pray for us, rather we must make intercession for them. Despite the authority of St. Thomas, many renowned theologians hold that the souls in purgatory really pray for us, and that we may invoke their aid. Bellarmine (De Purgatorio, lib. II, xv,) says the reason alleged by St. Thomas is not at all convincing, and holds that in virtue of their greater love of God and their union with Him their prayers may have great intercessory power, for they are really superior to us in love of God, and in intimacy of union with Him. Suarez (De poenit., disp. xlvii, s. 2, n. 9) goes farther and asserts "that the souls in purgatory are holy, are dear to God, love us with a true love and are mindful of our wants; that they know in a general way our necessities and our dangers, and how great is our need of Divine help and divine grace".

When there is question of invoking the prayers of those in purgatory, Bellarmine (loc. cit.) says it is superfluous, ordinarily speaking, for they are ignorant of our circumstances and condition. This is at variance with the opinion of Suarez, who admits knowledge at least in a general way, also with the opinions of many modern theologians who point to the practice now common with almost all the faithful of addressing their prayers and petitions for help to those who are still in a place of purgation. Scavini (Theol. Moral., XI, n. l74) sees no reason why the souls detained in purgatory may not pray for us, even as we pray for one another. He asserts that this practice has become common at Rome, and that it has the great name of St. Alphonsus in its favour. St. Alphonsus in his work the "Great Means of Salvation", chap. I, III, 2, after quoting Sylvius, Gotti, Lessius, and Medina as favourable to his opinion, concludes: "so the souls in purgatory, being beloved by God and confirmed in grace, have absolutely no impediment to prevent them from praying for us. Still the Church does not invoke them or implore their intercession, because ordinarily they have no cognizance of our prayers. But we may piously believe that God makes our prayers known to them". He alleges also the authority of St. Catharine of Bologna who "whenever she desired any favour had recourse to the souls in purgatory, and was immediately heard".

In summary, the doctrine of purgatory is unbiblical. Its foundation lies not in Biblical scripture, but in Catholic Tradition. The Apocrypha should not be considered part of Biblical scripture, and the verses in the New Testament were twisted to fit an already established doctrine.












I found this info on Contender Ministries........God Bless You:)












 
i was brought up in a protestant family and attended a free presbyterian church up until i was 14 it was only when i was 19 that i even heard the word purgatory from a catholic friend. we never heard it at church, it doesnt mention it in the bible, im still not quite sure of it, to the best of my knowledge it is the place your soul gets trapped between heaven and hell. but as far as i am concerned if it is not in the bible then it isnt true. i think it is yet another way for the roman catholic chapels to make money from people.
 
LIFE said:
i was brought up in a protestant family and attended a free presbyterian church up until i was 14 it was only when i was 19 that i even heard the word purgatory from a catholic friend. we never heard it at church, it doesnt mention it in the bible, im still not quite sure of it, to the best of my knowledge it is the place your soul gets trapped between heaven and hell. but as far as i am concerned if it is not in the bible then it isnt true. i think it is yet another way for the roman catholic chapels to make money from people.

Until the 1500s AD, it was in the Bible, my friend. When the "protestants" left the Roman church, they left those books out of their bibles as well. So you were raised with missing chapters in the Bible, and you believe that to be all there is.

Not your fault.

v/r

Q
 
there have been parts took out of the bible? really? ive never heard of this before! why would there be parts took out? how could that possibly be so? did GOD not want us to have all parts of it? i am now confused! everything i was brought up to believe now seems somehow twisted and deceitful!!!! HELP
 
LIFE said:
there have been parts took out of the bible? really? ive never heard of this before! why would there be parts took out? how could that possibly be so? did GOD not want us to have all parts of it? i am now confused! everything i was brought up to believe now seems somehow twisted and deceitful!!!! HELP
dont worry , God has made sure that the books he wants to be there ,are there ,so no worries it is complete
The idea of atoning for one’s sins by suffering after death, or even in this present life, is foreign to the Scriptures. When Jesus cured the paralytic brought to him, Jesus simply said: "Take courage, son; thy sins are forgiven thee." That was it. Jesus said nothing about his needing to suffer for them. Likewise when he showed his disciples that "repentance and remission of sins" was to be preached, he said nothing about doing penance or suffering later for one’s sins. And so also the apostle Peter counseled the Jews: "Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out," but again nothing about penance or suffering for sins. Testifying to the same truth, the apostle John wrote: "If we walk in the light as he also is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin." If the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin, that leaves none to be cleansed by purgatorial fires.—Matt. 9:2; Luke 24:47; Acts 3:19; 1 John 1:7

 
dear mee, thankyou for shining your light on the subject it has helped me, i was starting to worry. i was starting to wonder if i knew GOD at all, because the GOD i have known wouldn't want me or anyone else to suffer, he wants us to be safe and well and live with him in a golden haven above the sky, bless you. xo :)
 
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