Has the Qur'an become an idol?

iBrian

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From various discussion here, it seems that the Aur'an is regarded as perfect - essentially, the direct word of God.

However, in attaining such a perception, is there not a real danger that the Qur'an itself has become an object of veneration and worship in its own right?

When conservative Christians subscribe to the Bible being the direct Word of God, liberal Christians often throw the accusation that the Bible is being used as an object of worship.

I find it distinctly odd that we don;t see that position arise in Islam.

I'm also distinctly interested in finding out why Muslims believe that the Qur'an was never corrupted - yes, I'm familiar with the history and origins of the Qur'an, but I find it curious that no one sees political motivation in the "standardisation" process.
 
Brian, you're tackling a very important theological issue I wouldn't have dared to address on this forum.
Is the "heavenly" Quran created by God or is it co-eternal with God ?
 
Hi/Salaam!

When something/someone is worshipped, it means that it is prayed to and that the worshipper is constantly chanting praises and prayers TO the object of worship.

Neither conservative Muslims or Christians, to my knowledge, pray to the Holy Books (Qur'an and Bible), but rather use them as a source to reach God, to know Him, to praise him.

For Muslims, the Holy Qur'an is the Word of God. The Book is respected in such a way and used as a Prayer TO God/Allah. Muslims do not worship the Qur'an, but God (Allah--in Arabic language).
 
Amica said:
Hi/Salaam!

When something/someone is worshipped, it means that it is prayed to and that the worshipper is constantly chanting praises and prayers TO the object of worship.

Neither conservative Muslims or Christians, to my knowledge, pray to the Holy Books (Qur'an and Bible), but rather use them as a source to reach God, to know Him, to praise him.

For Muslims, the Holy Qur'an is the Word of God. The Book is respected in such a way and used as a Prayer TO God/Allah. Muslims do not worship the Qur'an, but God (Allah--in Arabic language).

I suppose it's not only a matter of worship but also the concept of God.

I hope it's alright to discuss my Christian beliefs in an Islamic forum.

From my point of view, I've come to the understanding that Muslims don't "worship" the Quran. They simply read it and do what it says.

Many Christians argue that the Quran is like "a Second Person" in what they call "the God-head." The argument goes that if Muslims claim that Islam is the "universal religion," and the Quran the Ultimate Revelation, then it follows that the Quran is co-eternal and uncreated.

However, from stuff I've heard from other sources, Muslims believe, and perhaps even the Quran says that it was written and preserved in heaven.

The reason why Christians use this argument is that before a book is even written, the concept it will convey has already been conceived. If Islam is universal, then it means that this concept is timeless and unchanging. Therefore, if Islam was the Word of God, then it existed before it was even literally written in heaven. In other words, it was already in the mind of God and was as eternal as God Himself.

My intention isn't to argue against Islam, but to perhaps to explain why Christians think that way and present such arguments.

This reasoning is quite sound. If a Revelation is universal and applies for all time, then it must be timeless and unchanging. It then follows that the concept or system of concepts that it represents was uncreated. The Christian teaching is therefore that the Word of God is uncreated and eternal.

This is where we can understand Muslims' devotion to the Quran and Christians' devotion to Jesus.

This is where the differences begin. The Christian teaching is that because the Word of God couldn't come from anyone but God, it belongs to God and is unique to God, it must therefore be a part of God. It belongs to the Being of which nothing greater can be imagined. Islam has a different concept. The Quran comes from God but is not a part of God.

Of course, a bundle of paper put together to form a book could never be a part of God, but the wisdom that comes from it is a part of God. Christians consider it bizarre that Muslims affirm that it's God's wisdom and yet it's not a part of God.

This leads us to Christian concept of the Trinity. I don't follow what people call "doctrines" and "dogma" because the apostles of the Christian Gospel never told us to live that way. The concept of the Trinity is in the New Testament, but it is not a doctrine. There is no such thing as "the doctrine of the Trinity."

The concept has three elements, the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit. If you actually read the New Testament, you find that the Father really means that God is the Source of holiness and righteousness.

The Son has several names: the Word, the Son, Christ and Jesus. This is merely terminology that means different things in different contexts. Basically, the Word (or Son) is God's Revelation of Himself. This is what Christians believe is the "Ultimate Revelation."

The Holy Spirit is God's own Spirit. It is the only perfect and incorruptible Spirit in the whole universe.

The Trinity therefore refers to three properties that we can associate with God:

(1) He is the One and Only Source of holiness and righteousness
(2) He is the One and Only Revelation of Himself, His own character, personality and wisdom
(3) He is the One and Only Holy Spirit, and is perfectly incorruptible and immune to evil.

Muslims like to say that Christians have "compartmentalised" God but really we're just saying that God has these three properties. We worship one God and He is one.

Again, just as a book made of paper, string and ink could never be a part of God, a human being made of flesh, blood and bones could never be a part of God either. God does not reveal Himself in a book or a human being.

However, what I do believe as a Christian is that God reveals Himself through meaning and concepts. In other words, God could not only reveal Himself through the wisdom in the Quran, but also the character and personality of a human being like Jesus.

The Holy Book and the human being are not God, however, the wisdom and the character and personality revealed through a Holy Book or a human being come from God and must therefore also be a part of God.

Saying that a Holy Book or a human being are God is not idolatry, because you are not really talking about the Holy Book or human being itself, but the character and wisdom conveyed through it. The Holy Book and human being are media of transmission.

Whether God sent a Holy Book or a human being, it's really just the same thing that's being revealed. God is revealing a part of His character, personality and infinite wisdom.

Yes, there's a real difference between Islam and Christianity's concept of God, and this is reflected in the way in which the Ultimate Revelation was revealed. The main point that Christians raise is that if the Quran is the source of holiness and righteousness, then is it really taking the place of God?

Well, as we know, Christians have Jesus as their living example and follow Him. Jesus doesn't really take the place of God and nor does the Quran, they both (allegedly) come from the Source -- God Himself.

Christians can't really accuse Muslims of idolatry and Muslims can't accuse Christians for idolatry. We both have different concepts of God and the Ultimate Revelation.
 
LEt me putt it in a simple way :)

The Qu'Ran is perfect by its miracles and what it has in it , it coveres everything , and its imposibble to curropt , 1 - 3 miliion muslims tuday know the Qu'Ran by heart , becouse God made it easy to remember , so its imposible , i dont think there are many who memorize the bible by heart , evin if they do its nothing compared to arabic , arabic is a very rich language if you learn about it youll see there are markes on top of every word in the Qu'Ran and if that single sign is missing , noone will touch that Qu'Ran, and if the Qu'Ran was curropted it wouldent be so perfect , everything mixes with each other, now i myself dont know if the bible is curropted or not , but i still beleave in the bible as one of God s book wich He sent to Jesus.
 
Is this an apologetics forum or a discussion forum ? AbdarRahman makes five statements that not everybody agrees with. Are we supposed to ignore them or is it allowed to discuss them ?
As a try I'll address two of them :
It's not fair to compare the learning by heart of the Quran and the Bible. The Bible is I don't know how many times longer than the Quran.
The Quran does not cover everything. If it did one wouldn't need the Hadiths.
 
mansio said:
It's not fair to compare the learning by heart of the Quran and the Bible. The Bible is I don't know how many times longer than the Quran.
I think his point was that since it can be learnt by heart and has been by millions, even if one burned/destroyed all the copies of the quran in existance, you still wouldnt be able to corrupt/remove the Quran from this earth.
The Quran does not cover everything. If it did one wouldn't need the Hadiths.
Don't know to which particular statement you are replying to of his.
oh well.
 
Im not talking about the legth but the words them selfs , if you learn about the arabic language and its words youll see what i mean , there are signs on top of every words wich i told everyone about .

Well offcource the Qu'Ran covers everything but not in the way you think , it doesent spesificly say what to do , becouse God wants us to learn , sunna is another thing that God commanded us to follow , so thats why i say it covers all .
 
Abdarrahman

If the Quran doesn't specifically say what to do and you need the Sunna, then it doesn't cover everything.
You'll have to prove that the Sunna is also a revelation from God.
 
mansio said:
Abdarrahman

If the Quran doesn't specifically say what to do and you need the Sunna, then it doesn't cover everything.
You'll have to prove that the Sunna is also a revelation from God.


Salam Mansio :)


I'm not sure if you know what you are talking about...Sunna is following the ways of the prophet. We as muslims try to emulate the actions of Muhammad (saw) because they was the best. We as muslims also try to emulate the actions of the previous prophets (PBUT).
 
The NeoSentient said:
Salam Mansio :)

I'm not sure if you know what you are talking about...Sunna is following the ways of the prophet. We as muslims try to emulate the actions of Muhammad (saw) because they was the best. We as muslims also try to emulate the actions of the previous prophets (PBUT).

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "emulating the actions of the prophet Muhammad." From what I've heard about Islamic beliefs, Muhammad was just a prophet. Muslims don't follow Muhammad but the Quran. Muslims are not followers of Muhammad because otherwise they'd be called "Mohammedans."

I may be wrong, but I am sure Muslims know Muhammad wasn't perfect, he was a sinner but he was nevertheless chosen as a messenger and prophet. Am I right?

As for what you said about "emulating the actions of the prophets," I would agree with you partly there. I wouldn't agree with the behaviour of prophets being a standard which we must follow. However, I do believe that they can nevertheless show us how to live and lead by example.

Leading by examples isn't the same as living by standards. Examples are things that you learn from. They provide wisdom. Standards are things to which you adhere and conform.

As you probably know, Christians are followers of Christ (another name for Jesus).

Jesus wasn't a standard that people followed. He was an example.

It all goes back to the story where Adam eats the fruit from the Forbidden Tree and corrupts human nature. He opened a path to evil and wickedness. In the same way Jesus opens a path back to holiness and righteousness with the promise that this corruption in human nature will be removed after death.

Jesus didn't follow rules, regulations or standards because he didn't need to. He did by instinct what was right. This is what we mean by Jesus being the "Second Adam."

This is what we acknowledge when we follow Jesus, the prophets and the apostles. Whenever we do the right thing it must come from our human nature and not by following standards.

It was similar with the prophets and apostles. The prophets came before the Messiah and the apostles came after him. Both of them tell us about the Messiah. The prophets and apostles were people who were intimate with God and knew that righteousness didn't come from rules and regulations but by being able to control and subdue the dark side of our human nature.

The prophets and apostles were not standards we adhere to and nor is Jesus. They showed us a simple example: true wisdom does not come from following standards but by understanding one's own human nature. Whoever subdues the dark side of his human nature doesn't need to follow standards.

If we followed the prophets as if they were "standards of righteousness" that would be idolatry because God is the Source of holiness and righteousness. The point is that the prophets lead us to God.

As for Muslims following the prophets, I didn't actually know they did that. I thought they just followed the Quran like a rule book.:confused:

Perhaps you could tell me a bit more about "Islamic Guidance.":D
 
I follow the Quran and the Quran tels us to follow the sunna ... so we follow the Qu'Ran we obey what God tells us to do , and he told us to follow the sunna or do what mohhamed [PBUH ] does , yes Mohhamed [PBUH] did phorbid something but after he did that , God sent him a sura called [ At-Tahreem ] , so Mohhamed [PBUH ] is like a human idol for us , noone can be like him.

over 1 Billion muslims dont drink alcohol , subhanaalla.

Thank you by the way for asking about islam , i didint perfect the answer but i hope you understand it, thanks.
 
AbdAlRahman said:
I follow the Quran and the Quran tels us to follow the sunna ... so we follow the Qu'Ran we obey what God tells us to do , and he told us to follow the sunna or do what mohhamed [PBUH ] does , yes Mohhamed [PBUH] did phorbid something but after he did that , God sent him a sura called [ At-Tahreem ] , so Mohhamed [PBUH ] is like a human idol for us , noone can be like him.

over 1 Billion muslims dont drink alcohol , subhanaalla.

Thank you by the way for asking about islam , i didint perfect the answer but i hope you understand it, thanks.

From the many Internet sites i've visited on opposing views and dialogue between Muslims and Christians, my impression was that Muslims don't follow Mohammed because they consider that idolatry, and Muslims are against anything that is contrary to worshipping the one true God.

What you've told me is a little different to what I've found so far . . . I suppose there are some Muslims who don't follow Mohammed "like an idol" and others who do. The ones who don't just consider him a messenger.
 
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