These verses from the bible really anoy me.

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I wonder what would happen if one of us were to go to the Islam board saying that verses in the Q'uran annoyed us and set out trying to prove its fallacy? You asked a question.. it was answered please show respect and accept that answer as is.

I have personal beliefs as to why God ordered the death of these people.. would everyone agree with me? probably not but it answers the questions that I have. Thats the thing... we search for answers with prayer, meditation of the word, and wait for God to answer us.. If we disbelieved the bible because we didnt understand something then what kind of faith would that be.
 
AbdAlRahman said:
Yes thank you for your answer ,

I got another verse :

"`How can you say, "We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?' (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

"How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. (From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"


so , does that mean that the bible is corrupted ?

Is English your first language? These both mean the same thing.
 
Well im not trying to do anything here , i read the bible and found some verses i understand in a way that would lead into the bible being currupted , but i wasent sure so i posted here for my nolage for me to understand the bible thats it , coes some muslims say bible is curropted some say its not , so i want to see wich side should i be , thats it.
 
Let me point out a couple things.. #1 God is God.. we do not judge ourselves or our actions against His judgements or actions.. He is GOD we are His children. We do not question what He does and say "but God.. you did it why cant I?"

His will is perfect.. His way is perfect and who are any of us to question Him? We certainly can ask Him for understanding... Which He gives when asked.

Do you know the word nephilim?
 
AbdAlRahman said:
Yeah i know there the same thing onyl there from difrent bibles,

English is a very diverse language.. you can say the same thing many different ways. Just because two different bibles say things differently but say the same thing does not justify calling it corrupt.
 
Lol , no , it is whats in the verses , whats written in the verses .

Look at the bold text and youll see
 
Faithfulservant said:
I wonder what would happen if one of us were to go to the Islam board saying that verses in the Q'uran annoyed us

The Islam section has many such threads, and most of the Islamic members try to answer the questions quite amiably



AbdAlRahman said:
"`How can you say, "We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?' (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

"How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. (From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"


Faithfulservant said:
Just because two different bibles say things differently but say the same thing does not justify calling it corrupt.


It is the verse itself which suggests corruption of the bible, not the different versions.
 
Ok I'm going to give you the same quotes I read about that verse that made me understand it somewhat.

Jer 8:8 How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain.(KJV)

Jer 8:8 - How do ye say, we are wise,.... Which they were continually boasting of, though they were ignorant of the judgment of the Lord, and were more stupid than the stork, turtle, crane, and swallow:
and the law of the Lord is with us? this was the foundation of their boast, because the law was given to them, and not to the nations of the world, which knew not God, and therefore they must be a wise and understanding people;
Lo, certainly in vain made he it; either the law, which was made or given in vain by the Lord to this people, since they made no better use of it, and valued themselves upon having it, without acting according to it;
the pen of the scribes is in vain; in vain, and to no purpose, were the scribes employed in writing out copies of the law, when either it was not heard or read, or however the things it enjoined were not put in practice;(John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible)
 
"`How can you say, "We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?' (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

"How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. (From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"


Ok I think I understand now... rather than saying its corrupt because they are worded differently you are saying its corrupt because The Jewish scribes have made the law into a lie.. maybe you should pose this one on the Judiasm board. They have a better understanding of the original text.
 
Wahts the matter with you?

I said " Does this mean the bible is currupted " I didint say it is.

And i probably mixed them up .
 
Nothing is the matter with me :)

If someone suggested to you that the Q'uran was corrupted.. would you not want to say something about it?

I have been on CR for what seems like a long time... many people have suggested that the bible is corrupt.. its discussed at length with no resolution.. you can look back at all the past threads and find them easily.. Alot of those people that suggest it is corrupt are Muslim.. They post almost the exact scriptures and reasonings that you do and I believe that they are derived from sites like Islam answers Christianity.. Its a circle with no resolve.

It goes both ways.. We get well meaning Christians who join CR to save souls and end up being told firmly that its not allowed on CR.. I understand it.. I understand also when muslims try to tell us that Muhammed is the prophet foretold in the bible.. You are trying to be a good Muslim :)

You are trying to save souls..

Peace :)
 
Of course, if you accept that both the bible and the quran were written, or at least, dictated by God, and I assume most people on this thread believe at least one or the other, you still cannot avoid the fact that it is kept by men.

I do not know if the original quran still exists, but I am fairly certain that few, if any, of the original books of the bible still exist. What we are left with are copies which are passed down and re-copied many times and often translated into other languages.

Man is an imperfect being and he has produced a copy of a copy of a copy of his holy texts. How can any of these texts possibly have escaped some level of corruption? The very fact that there are different versions of the bible prove that they are not all accurate and most likely none of them are perfect.

I do not think that there is much corruption in these writings, I certainly think that they have not lost their original message, but I do not see how anyone can say that either the Bible or Quran, or any other ancient work which is copied and recopied over and over again is untouched by corruption.
 
To each his own.. This is another belief that gets its own circle .. round and round with no resolution.. We hear it so many times that trying to discuss it becomes redundant and theres no enthusiasm in the discussion.. just weariness.

But I respect that God gave man the ability to form an opinion based on whatever means they come up with it..
 
Ooooookayyyy. Let's all chill for a second here.

A series of questions were asked. The idea is to answer them in such a way that the questioner is satisfied (if possible). No one was calling Christianity to task. So, let's breathe for a moment.

There are Surah, that I have questions about as well, but I take that to the Islam forum. Questions about the Bible have been brought here, so let us answer them, as objectively as possible.

v/r

Q
 
i'm not really an "expert", but:

the stuff from numbers 31 *only* applied to that particular group of people at that particular time - the idea being that they were unique in deserving such treatment (rather like some apparently sweeping and similar statements in the Qur'an about jews and christians, as i've been taught). it's not a universal principle and any such practice could only ever have been applied to members of the "seven canaanite nations" (and, in practice, wasn't even carried out terribly well) who are no longer in existence. it was declared more than 2000 years ago that all the "nations" defined in the Torah (apart from us) have become intermingled and thus can no longer be distinguished from each other. thus it is no longer possible to exterminate amalek, for example, because it's not possible to identify someone reliably as an amalekite. there are many reasons adduced by various commentators for why these nations were considered so evil, like child sacrifice, institutionalised incest and prostitution, although no doubt a modern person would find it hard to summon the necessary moral outrage to connect with the Divine command here. incidentally, these passages illustrate the danger of taking things out of context, because they cannot be studied in isolation without taking account of parallel passages commanding us to "love the stranger, for you were strangers in egypt" and so on. if you know the Oral Law that goes with the Written Law, you will know that it's very much more complicated and also much more "modern-friendly" in its sensibilities. suffice it to say that these commandments, even if applied successfully *once*, can no longer be carried out, rather like the instructions to wade into the red sea and wait for the waters to split. it relies on a particular unique set of circumstances, not a general principle of genocide. if only the people who apply similar verses in the Qur'an were as careful.

as far as the stuff with the bulls is concerned, these cases are the basis of an entire tractate of the Talmud concerning civil damage suits and are there to provide a basis for reasoning. the basic thing to remember is that a financial penalty can be paid instead of anyone or anything getting killed, because the Oral Law made such things effectively impossible. it's rather technical though.

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
Slaves of Dignity: for Wicked or Holy Purposes?

AbdAlRahman said:
Still find it strange

Cous God forbid slavery in the Qu'ran

I find that strage the bit on that God didint forbid it in the bible is becouse ive heard that the bible is filled with human rights and all.

AbdAIRRahman, it's nice to have you posting on our forum.

My understanding is that what people call "human rights" is not the only yardstick to measuring right and wrong. Don't get the wrong idea. I am not undervaluing human beings!!!! I simply believe there is another way to discern between right and wrong and it is not about "human rights."

It depends what you mean by "slaves." Slavery is not inherently evil. It's only because Adam ate the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil that slavery has the potential to be "evil." When Adam ate that fruit, his human nature was corrupted by the knowledge of evil. He was then capable of thinking evil thoughts.

Lying, selfishness, arrogance, greed, lust and hatred are a result of Adam eating the fruit.

Slavery is where you offer your whole life in service to another. You are bound to this role for life. This is basically what slavery is in essence.

Of course, this bondage can be exploited. Because your destiny is in the hands of another (your master), the one who has power over you can order you around, torture and bully you. When this happens, your master is responding to the dark side of his human nature. His selfishness and arrogance has consumed him either partly or wholely. The power has gone to his head.

This opens up another issue. What do we mean by "slavery?" The kind of slavery described in the Christian Gospel is quite different to that opposed by today's United Nations and human rights movements. You will find in the Gospel that there is barely anything about the trading and selling of slaves. The apostles did not teach people how to exploit slaves. They told people to respect them.

Slaves are told to work hard (for God and not men) and masters are not to lord it over their slaves because whether you are a slave or master you are still a part of the kingdom of God.

This is why the Christian Gospel neither encourages nor forbids slavery.

Slavery, "in theory," according to today's society, is evil. Most people think of slavery as either getting whipped, poked and prodded, or simply being constantly told where to go, what to do, doing someone's else's work, not having the freedom to do what you want, and basically losing your dignity.

The idea that comes from the Gospel is that slavery has its bright and dark sides. The dark side has no role to play if people follow the bright side of their human nature. The slave, with all his good intentions, will work hard, be diligent and conscientious in his work and his master will not lord it over his slave with his authority.

The "master and slave" relationship are merely a temporary aspect of the lives we live in this world. They cease to exist in the next world and next life. The master is no better than the slave and the slave no worse than his master.

We are, in a sense, "slaves" in this world because of the governments we serve, rules and regulations we must follow, we are bombarded by media influences, and have our lives controlled by the political systems/structures that regulate our lives.

As Christians, we are told not to oppose these structures and arrangements, despite how unbearable, intolerable or abominable we find the world around us. That does not mean we will not oppose injustices, but it's just that we must understand that the world around us may not see its own injustices.

That's what it was like back then. Slavery was a part of the legal and social arrangements of that time and Christians couldn't simply decide to go against it because it would also mean opposition to the Roman political system, Roman culture and everything it represented. To have a slave was to be a Roman citizen.

For Christians to do that it would have been "anti-Roman." It was not the purpose of the Christian Gospel to be enemies of state.

The idea was that as a Christian you could be a "slave master" without having the character and personality traits normally associated with "slave masters." Because you were a follower of Christ and part of God's kingdom, you wouldn't be so concerned about making money and self-preservation to have to treat your slaves badly to get them to do work. It's as if they're not really your slaves at all, but God's slaves.

On the other hand, if you were a slave, as a Christian you would be diligent in your work because you work for God not men. You belong to the kingdom of God and are not so worried about your standing in relation to other slaves. You don't become so selfish as to try and impress your master and make him think you're better than the other slaves. You belong to God.

Slavery only becomes evil when your dignity and self-respect is constantly being abused and attacked. That's what you mean when you talk about "human rights."

Islam means "submission to God," so Muslims are slaves of God and follow the rules and regulations sent down to them by God.

In the past, people were slaves because they didn't have dignity. Now, as followers of Christ, we are slaves of God for a different reason. We live as slaves to gain dignity, not to lose it.

Is slavery wrong? Actually, it would be the exact reverse if we live the right way.

Being a slave doesn't mean you lose your dignity.

Slavery not being forbidden by the Gospel doesn't mean it was corrupted. It's actually the other way round. We are so accustomed to think that slavery is only used for wicked purposes that we don't realise how it can be used for holy purposes.
 
Servitude. The concept here is servitude. I, for example, am willingly in servitude to the people of the United States of America. I have been for 25 years of my life. I carry out orders as given to me from time to time, and I give orders to be carried out from time to time, as required. I can not "quit" my job today, because I signed a contract of agreement. There are rules I must follow, but I knew this before I accepted my role.

Am I a slave? Technically, yes. In reality, no. Servant. Public servant. Is it evil? No.

African-Americans on the other hand, were placed into servitude roles, against their will (by their own kings and rulers I must add), over 300 years ago (in the United States). Was that wrong? Yes. They were the spoils of wars between tribes in Africa, and the white man exploited that. That was wrong. That was anti Biblical.

See the difference?

v/r

Q
 
If somone asked me or suggested that the Qu"Ran is currupted i would firstly tell him to give me the verses that lead him to beleave that , i now know that God didint want to change peoples lifes , like a shock , yoyu know if someone came to islam we never rush him into changing his clothes and stuff , no , Allah teached us to do everything step by step , like in the bible , he didint change slavery untill the Qu"Ran i eccept that , Same thing with Gods creation of the universe in 6 days , he could of made it all in a split second if he wanted to , but He did it in 6 days to show us that nothing is a blink away , everything is step by step , so i eccept the bible to be Gods word , i eccept Jesus to be Gods prophet , Human that is , let me guve you other examples of step by step :

6 days of creation
Several prophets " didint just came with 1 and thats it , no like i said God wants to teach us something with his ways of everything "

I wont come up with more, this not the place to say it , anyway i think im done in this subject , i think i wont critisize the bible , ill jut beleave that God sent it with its prophet , thats all i need ,

Thanks to all who answered my questions.
 
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