Hadith

[Friend]

GTv13
Sorry ..but you made me smile when I read your reply.. what do you want to prove that prophet mohamaad hadieth is worthless ,,,,, and this is not acceptable because we have trust in what our prophet said and did especially those hadieths which have references and classified as hassan or have a degree of agreement between scientists of hadieths .


you should know that my mother language is Arabic and i can understand what I'm reading without these translation ,,, and Allah tell us to follow our prophet mohammad .In Islam we know that Al Quraan is a pure book without any corruption ,, while Hadieths are not pure and some bad people fabricated many hadieths ,, earlier Muslims knew that and started to put standard to recognize the right hadieth from the wrong one ... this is what we told " The science of Hadieth " ,,, so we can know the degree of acceptance of any hadieth .

if you permit me ??I have questions for you ,, Are you Muslim ?? if you so from what time ?? and how you became that ??



Thanks

 

[GTv13]

Sorry ..but you made me smile when I read your reply.. what do you want to prove that prophet mohamaad hadieth is worthless ,,,,, and this is not acceptable because we have trust in what our prophet said and did especially those hadieths which have references and classified as hassan or have a degree of agreement between scientists of hadieths .

I want to prove that we dont have to follow Hadith and the Sunnah,not try to prove that its worthless,there is a difference.
You say you have trust in the Hadith which are brought to you by the people and I say I have trust in the Quran which is brought to us by Prophet Muhammed.
Is not just that most of the Hadith is corrupt but the fact that God tells us not to folow anything but the Quran is why I dont want to follow anything beside it.
Here are some verses from the Quran.
069.040 -069.047
YUSUFALI: That this is verily the word of an honoured messenger;
YUSUFALI: It is not the word of a poet: little it is ye believe!
YUSUFALI: Nor is it the word of a soothsayer: little admonition it is ye receive.
YUSUFALI: (This is) a Message sent down from the Lord of the Worlds.
YUSUFALI: And if the messenger were to invent any sayings in Our name,
YUSUFALI: We should certainly seize him by his right hand,
YUSUFALI: And We should certainly then cut off the artery of his heart:
YUSUFALI: Nor could any of you withhold him (from Our wrath).
The verse clearly states that Muhammed the Messenger cant invent anything in Allah name.But he only thought us which has been revealed to him by God the Quran.
006.019
YUSUFALI: Say: "What thing is most weighty in evidence?" Say: "Allah is witness between me and you; This Qur'an hath been revealed to me by inspiration, that I may warn you and all whom it reaches. Can ye possibly bear witness that besides Allah there is another Allah?" Say: "Nay! I cannot bear witness!" Say: "But in truth He is the one Allah, and I truly am innocent of (your blasphemy of) joining others with Him."
In this verese we can read that God the Almighty has revealed the Quran to Prophet Muhammed so that Prophet Muhammed can warn us and all whom it reaches with the Book revealed to him by God,the Quran and not nothing else is mentioned.
006.114
YUSUFALI: Say: "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah? - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.

This verse tells us not to seek any other judge but Allah,and to have Allah be our Judge we have to follow his Book not any other book.God also tells us that the Quran is explained in detail,it has everything we need in it to be our guide.

YUSUFALI: These are nothing but names which ye have devised,- ye and your fathers,- for which Allah has sent down no authority (whatever). They follow nothing but conjecture and what their own souls desire!- Even though there has already come to them Guidance from their Lord!

In this verse God tells us not to follow anything else when we have his Book which is the guide for us.On the other hand is safe to say,following the Hadith is guesswork and you never know for sure if you can believe in it 100% or not.

Those are just some verses I dont want post to much.

you should know that my mother language is Arabic and i can understand what I'm reading without these translation ,,, and Allah tell us to follow our prophet mohammad .In Islam we know that Al Quraan is a pure book without any corruption ,, while Hadieths are not pure and some bad people fabricated many hadieths ,, earlier Muslims knew that and started to put standard to recognize the right hadieth from the wrong one ... this is what we told " The science of Hadieth " ,,, so we can know the degree of acceptance of any hadieth .

You have to understand that God sent the Quran to all the people not just Arabs or those who speak Arabic.God knows full well the future as well He knows that most people wont be speaking Arabic.Of course the Quran sounds best in Arabic as well is easyer to understand in Arabic but the translations still have the same meaning unless is been bad translated.
All the verse I posted are translations from the Arabic translated by those who spoke both languages and they translated it so that it preservs its original meaning.
If you think you are better translator than most people than let see your translation of the verses.
Remembrer Hadith are writen by people about 200 years later after Prophet Muhammed unlike the Quran which is writen the way God wanted it to be writen.That is why every sura, and every verse ,as well latter, is numbered in order.Hadith dont have any order but instead people just pick out Hadith out of many and than proclaim it true with no way of knowing it for sure.
Ever read how they say thay verify the Hadith,umm.. I think thay look back many generations at the people from who the Hadith come from than if they find out they have lied even once they dont proclaim the Hadith as being 100% true.You call that The science of Hadieth ?
Now lets face it, is such a thing even possible how can any human being look back at people and pretend like he knows sombeody never lied in his life. There is just know way, only God knows for sure who lies and who dont.

Here are some more verses from the Quran, you lett me know what they mean if Im wrong.
042.048
YUSUFALI: If then they run away, We have not sent thee as a guard over them. Thy duty is but to convey (the Message). And truly, when We give man a taste of a Mercy from Ourselves, he doth exult thereat, but when some ill happens to him, on account of the deeds which his hands have sent forth, truly then is man ungrateful!
013.040
YUSUFALI: Whether We shall show thee (within thy life-time) part of what we promised them or take to ourselves thy soul (before it is all accomplished),- thy duty is to make (the Message) reach them: it is our part to call them to account.
005.099
YUSUFALI: The Messenger's duty is but to proclaim (the message). But Allah knoweth all that ye reveal and ye conceal.
PICKTHAL: The duty of the messenger is only to convey (the message). Allah knoweth what ye proclaim and what ye hide.
SHAKIR: Nothing is (incumbent) on the Messenger but to deliver (the message), and Allah knows what you do openly and what you hide.
As we can see in those verses Prophet Muhammed duty was to deliver the Message the Quran.
What about this verse what does it mean?
025.030
YUSUFALI: Then the Messenger will say: "O my Lord! Truly my people took this Qur'an for just foolish nonsense."
PICKTHAL: And the messenger saith: O my Lord! Lo! mine own folk make this Qur'an of no account.
SHAKIR: And the Messenger cried out: O my Lord! surely my people have treated this Quran as a forsaken thing.
As we can see Prophat Muhammed will say my people have deserted the Quran he doesnt mention any Hadith.By the way his people are the Muslims as far as I understand.
Bottom line we can not compare any book with the Quran and let it be our religios guidience and with that ignore the Quran,it is idol worship.

if you permit me ??I have questions for you ,, Are you Muslim ?? if you so from what time ?? and how you became that ??

I was born in Bosnia.
And no Islam is not knew to me I was born into a muslim family and they named me Muhamed.I went to the mosque as a kid back in Bosnia. I think I was about 6,7, back than when I first started attending the mosque now Im 25 tho.By the way Im not the best Muslim but I try to be I dont pray all the time.I hope God helps me and strengtens my faith.
As well I hope God helps all the good people and belivers in Him.
I was grown up into a Sunni family but now I can see that Sunnis are wrong.I just cant ignore the Quran and the facts.
There is no need to call ourself names but only Muslims.Most people dont even know that God tells us in the Quran how to do the washing befor the prayer,due to books other than the Quran.As well the proclemation of faith is wrong we should not say it any other way than the way is writen in the Quran.
peace.

 

[thipps]

h| GTv13,
I've been following this discussion and i have to say that i havent seen anything compelling from you GTv13.
Everything you say is based on personal interpretation of verses. for the sake of argument, if your opponents are not allowed to use hadith, then they can easily say that these verses mean something else which will disprove your point. and you dont have any real evidence to prove them wrong. i'll give you an example from your last post. You quoted 3 translations for 25.030. Ill just post Yusuf ali's.
Then the Messenger will say: "O my Lord! Truly my people took this Qur'an for just foolish nonsense."
Then you said, "As we can see Prophat Muhammed will say my people have deserted the Quran he doesnt mention any Hadith.By the way his people are the Muslims as far as I understand."
Now, I'll say what Yusuf Ali said in his commentary of this verse. he says that: "My people" are ofcourse the unbelieving Quraish. They treated the Quran with neglect, i.e., something to be discarded.

So, the interpretation of 'my people' changes from "Muslims" to "unbelieving Quraish". hardly the same thing.
So, in the end, all said and done, its a no-win situation for you.
my two cents.
regards,
thipps

 

[GTv13]

Everything you say is based on personal interpretation of verses. for the sake of argument, if your opponents are not allowed to use hadith, then they can easily say that these verses mean something else which will disprove your point.

The verse you mentioned 25.30 I posted above with 3 different translations all have the same meaning even tho all the 3 verses use different words,would you agree.
Why would you want to use the Hadith if we are talking about the Quran?
My own inerpretation, Im sure thats easy to say,I dont ever try to change the verses meaninng.

and you dont have any real evidence to prove them wrong. i'll give you an example from your last post. You quoted 3 translations for 25.030. Ill just post Yusuf ali's.

Then the Messenger will say: "O my Lord! Truly my people took this Qur'an for just foolish nonsense."

Then you said, "As we can see Prophat Muhammed will say my people have deserted the Quran he doesnt mention any Hadith.By the way his people are the Muslims as far as I understand."

Now, I'll say what Yusuf Ali said in his commentary of this verse. he says that: "My people" are ofcourse the unbelieving Quraish. They treated the Quran with neglect, i.e., something to be discarded.

So, the interpretation of 'my people' changes from "Muslims" to "unbelieving Quraish". hardly the same thing.

So, in the end, all said and done, its a no-win situation for you.

my two cents.

regards,

thipps

Remember no one can make verses in the Quran say what they want it to say, as you like to claim.I dont get it where you get the Quraish from.
As you can see you are using your own inerpetation.Weren't the Quraish Prophet Muhammed enemies for the most part?
Now lets look at the verses and try to understand when will Prophet Muhammed say the verse 25.30.
025.027
YUSUFALI: The Day that the wrong-doer will bite at his hands, he will say, "Oh! would that I had taken a (straight) path with the Messenger!
025.028
YUSUFALI: "Ah! woe is me! Would that I had never taken such a one for a friend!
025.029
YUSUFALI: "He did lead me astray from the Message (of Allah) after it had come to me! Ah! the Evil One is but a traitor to man!"
025.030
YUSUFALI: Then the Messenger will say: "O my Lord! Truly my people took this Qur'an for just foolish nonsense."
PICKTHAL: And the messenger saith: O my Lord! Lo! mine own folk make this Qur'an of no account.
SHAKIR: And the Messenger cried out: O my Lord! surely my people have treated this Quran as a forsaken thing.
As we can see above it will be said at the day of judgment.
Now there is just no way, anyone can claim that Prophet Muhammed will mean just the Quraish when he says my own people,or my people.

So, the interpretation of 'my people' changes from "Muslims" to "unbelieving Quraish". hardly the same thing.
So, in the end, all said and done, its a no-win situation for you.
my two cents.

All I have to say,are you sure?Who is trying to make the verse say what they want?
peace.

 

[Friend]

Hi all

These are Quranic verses show the status of our prophet mohammad and his guidance in Islam :
.....................................................
3:32. Say: "Obey Allah and His Messenger.: But if they turn back, Allah loveth not those who reject Faith.

7:158. day: "O men! I am sent unto you all, as the Messenger of Allah, to Whom belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth: there is no god but He: it is He That giveth both life and death. So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the Unlettered Prophet, who believeth in Allah and His words: follow him that (so) ye may be guided."

8:24. O ye who believe! give your response to Allah and His Messenger, when He calleth you to that which will give you life; and know that Allah cometh in between a man and his heart, and that it is He to Whom ye shall (all) be gathered.

33:36. It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path.
49:1. O Ye who believe! Put not yourselves forward before Allah and His Messenger. but fear Allah. for Allah is He Who hears and knows all things.


49:2. O ye who believe! Raise not your voices above the voice of the Prophet, nor speak aloud to him in talk, as ye may speak aloud to one another, lest your deeds become vain and ye perceive not. 49:3. Those that lower their voices in the presence of Allah's Messenger,- their hearts has Allah tested for piety: for them is Forgiveness and a great Reward. "

...........................................
GTv13 , these verses show why we must follow our prophet Mohammad (PUH). I think you must be careful from those whom want to destroy our Islamic teaching with some argument just to let themselves do what they want .

Best Regards

 

[GTv13]

GTv13 , these verses show why we must follow our prophet Mohammad (PUH). I think you must be careful from those whom want to destroy our Islamic teaching with some argument just to let themselves do what they want .

I like to think little different.We cant follow Prophet Muhammed but we can follow his Message dont you agree.Or what do you mean by following Prophet Muhammed.God also tells us in the Quran than we have a great example in Abraham to follow as well those with him.But God trully means follow there religion not them, since we cant follow them now.
The verse 49.2 is cleary directed to the belivers at the time of Prophet Muhammed,remember we can not speak to Prophet Muhammed now, in this time..
I trully would like to know the truth in the verse 7.158 Some say,
unlettered Prophet,some say Ummi Prophet others say the gentile Prophet, so who is right what do you think.Was Prophet Muhammed able to read and write or not.By the way do you belive that evey male Muslim is required to have a beard as some Hadith claim.And if so why.
I hope you careful too, friend.
peace.

 

[PluckyAli]

First of all Relax everyone,

If millions of people are saying ww1 and ww2 happend,then i bet ww1 and ww2 indeed happend.Millions of people can't be wrong.The same goes for hadiths,if millions of people are saying the particular hadith is authentic and is from prophet muhammad then we have a strong evidence that hadith is from Muhammad and so we have to follow it.

And why should we follow prophet muhammad ?.
First of all Quran says "obey Allah and obey the messenger",second reason and the most important is a prophet doesnot say anything from himself,what he says is revelation from God through an angel.

p.Ali

 

[PluckyAli]

As I said befor we can not obey Prophet Muhammed because he has died,peace be upon him.

It would help if you would stop contradicting yourself.I have taken this message from post# 16.After the above statement your next statement is below

But we can obey and follow his Message and that Message is the Quran alone.

I hope this is obvious.Btw whoever told you quran is Prophet Muhammad message was a brilliant scholar(i hope you can understand simple sarcasm).

p.ali

 

[GTv13]

If millions of people are saying ww1 and ww2 happend,then i bet ww1 and ww2 indeed happend.Millions of people can't be wrong.The same goes for hadiths,if millions of people are saying the particular hadith is authentic and is from prophet muhammad then we have a strong evidence that hadith is from Muhammad and so we have to follow it.

Bad exampels,comparing world war 1 and 2 with the Hadith dont make any sense.Millions of people have no way of knowing which Hadith is 100% authentic as you saying.Most Hadith come from one /two persons,or more.So you me or anybody else exept for those people who brought us the Hadith have no way of knowing if what they tell us is 100% true or not.
So millions of people who are following the Hadith are following the books of those who wrote the Hadith.So one has to put his trust in those people if one follows the Hadith.Of course we all can guess and feel what Hadith is right and which is not but thats not the same as knowing it for sure.
Millions of People belive in trinity but that dont make them right.
Anyway your point is not good,we should not follow the majority but that what is right.

And why should we follow prophet muhammad ?.

Where did I ask this question, please let me know I dont know where?Well I know where you got this question from but trully if you can think clearly you should know that is not what I ment,you changed my question, WHY?.???
Its just not fair.

First of all Quran says "obey Allah and obey the messenger",second reason and the most important is a prophet doesnot say anything from himself,what he says is revelation from God through an angel.

You right obeying Prophet Muhammed was Obeying Allah the Almighty since it is Allah who sent us the Messanger to teach us our religion.But those verses that say obey Alllah and obey the messenger was directed at the people at the time of Prophet Muhammed.Remember most people did not belive at first at the time of Prophet Muhamed that is why God is telling them to obey Prophet Muhammed and that he is indeed speaking the truth.

It would help if you would stop contradicting yourself.I have taken this message from post# 16.After the above statement your next statement is below

How am I contradicting myself,go ahead you can explain.
But again look obeying or following Prophet Muhammed the person is impossible for anybody right now,dont you agree.I cant see how one couldnt agree.
But thats what you people keep saying when you say we have to obey Prophet Muhmmed.
Again as I said many times befor we can follow or obey Prophet Muhammed Message the Quran.Thats not contradicting.
On the other hand we can obey God the Almighty at all times,God is always with us,we can obey His Book as well we can obey God directly.

I hope this is obvious.Btw whoever told you quran is Prophet Muhammad message was a brilliant scholar(i hope you can understand simple sarcasm).

I dont understand,let me know what you mean.
peace.

 

[thipps]

As we can see above it will be said at the day of judgment.
Now there is just no way, anyone can claim that Prophet Muhammed will mean just the Quraish when he says my own people,or my people.

I wont waste time trying to show you how 'my people' can refer to the unbelieving Quraish. Why? cause as far as i can see, you are contradicting your first explanation of 'my people'. First you said it referred to the Muslims. Now, you say that it doesnt mean just the Quraish implying that 'my people' are muslims plus non-muslims.

 

[GTv13]

I wont waste time trying to show you how 'my people' can refer to the unbelieving Quraish. Why? cause as far as i can see, you are contradicting your first explanation of 'my people'. First you said it referred to the Muslims. Now, you say that it doesnt mean just the Quraish implying that 'my people' are muslims plus non-muslims.

For the record this is what I originaly said:
As we can see Prophat Muhammed will say my people have deserted the Quran he doesnt mention any Hadith.By the way his people are the Muslims as far as I understand.
Im not contradicting my first explenation.
Here is what I said:Now there is just no way, anyone can claim that Prophet Muhammed will mean just the Quraish when he says my own people,or my people.
It is not implying that his people are muslims plus on-muslims.
Why are you arguing if you dont want to prove your point,makes no sense.
Dont say this is what it means and just expect people to belive you,if you want people to belive you prove your point, only than is fair.
peace.

 

[thipps]

For the record this is what I originaly said:
As we can see Prophat Muhammed will say my people have deserted the Quran he doesnt mention any Hadith.By the way his people are the Muslims as far as I understand.
Im not contradicting my first explenation.
Here is what I said:Now there is just no way, anyone can claim that Prophet Muhammed will mean just the Quraish when he says my own people,or my people.
It is not implying that his people are muslims plus on-muslims.
Why are you arguing if you dont want to prove your point,makes no sense.
Dont say this is what it means and just expect people to belive you,if you want people to belive you prove your point, only than is fair.
peace.

Then, just like that, ther is no way, anyone can claim that Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) meant only the Muslims either cause the unbelieving Quraish did treat the Quran as the verse says. Oh and btw, by saying "as far as I understand." you are admitting that your methodology of interpreting the Qur'an is purely personal which is a sure shot formula for disaster and disunity as every person is unique and has thier own way of thinking.
Your accusing me of not proving my point as if you have. You first.
and another thing, you obviously use translations, and dont know arabic as a language. so you should also know that without the Sunnah, you cant understand alot of verses. Therefore, ignoring the hadith will land you in big trouble as far as intepretations go.
regards,
thipps

 

[PluckyAli]

Bad exampels,comparing world war 1 and 2 with the Hadith dont make any sense.Millions of people have no way of knowing which Hadith is 100% authentic as you saying.Most Hadith come from one /two persons,or more.So you me or anybody else exept for those people who brought us the Hadith have no way of knowing if what they tell us is 100% true or not.
So millions of people who are following the Hadith are following the books of those who wrote the Hadith.So one has to put his trust in those people if one follows the Hadith.Of course we all can guess and feel what Hadith is right and which is not but thats not the same as knowing it for sure.

I hope you didnot misunderstand me.What i was trying to say is there is no one or a very few people who will deny ww1 and ww2,so if we count it's probablity it's very high,indcating the event surely occured.If millions of people are saying some hadith is authentic and there are few or no one who says the hadith is not authentic and then if we count it's chance then we can decide the probabiltiy of a particular hadith being authentic is high.Ofcourse it's just a probability it's not a proof of anything.

Millions of People belive in trinity but that dont make them right.

Good q.Millions of people surely believe in trinity but at the same time millions of people deny trinity,keeping this in mind,if we count their probability it will come 50/50,so nothing can be said about it.

Where did I ask this question, please let me know I dont know where?Well I know where you got this question from but trully if you can think clearly you should know that is not what I ment

Where did i tell you,you asked this q?,show me where and i will be very thankful to you.

you changed my question, WHY?.???

Show me where?

Its just not fair.

right.it's just unfair to accuse others.right?

But those verses that say obey Alllah and obey the messenger was directed at the people at the time of Prophet Muhammed

That is to say you misunderstood the basics of Islam.how you knew it was directed at the people of that time,there is no way of knowing particular verse is for people of that age or this age,so what i am trying to say is everyone who dislikes some verse can say that verse is for the period of that time or this time.

Remember most people did not belive at first at the time of Prophet Muhamed that is why God is telling them to obey Prophet Muhammed and that he is indeed speaking the truth.

Good.So can you let us know how you knew that some people did not believe at first at the time of prophet muhammad.

But again look obeying or following Prophet Muhammed the person is impossible for anybody right now,dont you agree.I cant see how one couldnt agree.

look again your not understanding things.If something of some religion cant be applied at some time,then that religion is fake.

H

ow am I contradicting myself,go ahead you can explain.

i think i have explained it before very clearly.what my point is if your saying this
" we can follow or obey Prophet Muhammed Message the Quran.Thats not contradicting".
then u said
"As I said befor we can not obey Prophet Muhammed because he has died,peace be upon him."
then in ur newest message you said
"Again as I said many times befor we can follow or obey Prophet Muhammed Message the Quran.Thats not contradicting."

I don't know how should i explain that simple thing to you.every muslims know quran is God's message not muhammad message.

p.ali

 

[Popeyesays]

I don't know how should i explain that simple thing to you.every muslims know quran is God's message not muhammad message.
p.ali

I think one can be confused by the "voice" which Muhammed, the Apostle, is using at any given time in the Qur'an.

Sometimes the Voice of God is obviously the voice of God.

Sometimes it is the voice of the Apostle giving us the "gist" of God's instruction.

Sometimes God is speaking directly to the Apostle and His words are meant to apply to the Apostle first, the believers being secondary in that instance.

Sometimes the voice of the Apostle is direct speaking to His companions.

The Revelation is always from God.

This is true of the Torah, the Evangels, of every part of the "Book".

Regards,
Scott

 

[GTv13]

Where did i tell you,you asked this q?,show me where and i will be very thankful to you.

OK,maybe Im wrong,if I am, Im sorry,but I kinder got the impression that you responded to this question, I asked:
Or what do you mean by following Prophet Muhammed.
Than you asked yourself this question:
And why should we follow prophet muhammad ?.
Well I never put the question that way.
Anyway can you answer my question,what do you mean by following Prophet Muhammed?

Your accusing me of not proving my point as if you have. You first.
and another thing, you obviously use translations, and dont know arabic as a language. so you should also know that without the Sunnah, you cant understand alot of verses.

Whats your point are you saying that everybody has to speak Arabic to understand the Quran.Do the verses have a different meaning in Arabic?
Let me know please which verses need the Sunnah so that we can understand it???

I hope you didnot misunderstand me.What i was trying to say is there is no one or a very few people who will deny ww1 and ww2,so if we count it's probablity it's very high,indcating the event surely occured.If millions of people are saying some hadith is authentic and there are few or no one who says the hadith is not authentic and then if we count it's chance then we can decide the probabiltiy of a particular hadith being authentic is high.Ofcourse it's just a probability it's not a proof of anything.

Nobody can deny ww1 and 2,you right, we have it on tape,it did occur.
But millions of people just follow the Hadith they have no way of knowing if the Hadith they follow are 100% true.If those millions of people tell me all the Hadith they follow, they know are 100% true,than those people are high on something.
There is no way anybody can say for sure this Hadith is authentic.Only the people who heard Prophet Muhammed sayings can know for sure.

That is to say you misunderstood the basics of Islam.how you knew it was directed at the people of that time,there is no way of knowing particular verse is for people of that age or this age,so what i am trying to say is everyone who dislikes some verse can say that verse is for the period of that time or this time.

Common sense,thats all I have to say,the way the verse is being told.

So can you let us know how you knew that some people did not believe at first at the time of prophet muhammad.

History as well Quran mentions it,all the Hadith and Sunnah are history...

look again your not understanding things.If something of some religion cant be applied at some time,then that religion is fake.

I dont know what you mean, you can go ahead and explain it to me.
But if you saying that all the verses are directed to all the people at any time than you wrong.When the Quran was first reveald people did not understand all the verses in it,because not all the verses where directed at them.Remember we needed the technology to understand some verses in the Quran fully.

I don't know how should i explain that simple thing to you.every muslims know quran is God's message not muhammad message.

You right the Quran is God's Message to us,I never ment the Quran is from Prophet Muhammed,maybe I wasnt very clear.
042.048
YUSUFALI: If then they run away, We have not sent thee as a guard over them. Thy duty is but to convey (the Message). And truly, when We give man a taste of a Mercy from Ourselves, he doth exult thereat, but when some ill happens to him, on account of the deeds which his hands have sent forth, truly then is man ungrateful!
As we can see in the verse above Prophet Muhammed duty was to deliver the Message.So when I said the Quran is the only Message Prophet Muhammed left us I didnt/I dont mean the Quran is from Prophet Muhammed.What I mean is the Only God's Message Prophet Muhammed left us.Prophet Muhammed was God's Messenger and the Message he left us is the Quran.Again when I said Prophet Muhammed Message,I ment the Message God the Almighty revaled to Prophet Muhammed,God gave the Message,the Quran to Prophet Muhammed so he can deliver it to us.
peace.

 

[thipps]

Whats your point are you saying that everybody has to speak Arabic to understand the Quran.Do the verses have a different meaning in Arabic?
Let me know please which verses need the Sunnah so that we can understand it???

GTv13, are you going to tell me and everyone here that each word in arabic has only one meaning? A word can have many meanings. Why choose one over the other? but we can get to that once you have proven your point, which you havent. And uve ignored the rest of what I said. I find your methodology for interpretation of the Qur'an difficult to accept as its based on personal interpretation as i explained before. Every other person will be coming with his/her own interpretation. This is following your personal desire and I hope i dont need to explain what happens when we follow that. Where does that leave us? and interestingly you say that you understand things because of:

Common sense,thats all I have to say,the way the verse is being told.

Obviously its not making sense to other people on this forum. I reiterate again that what makes sense to you will not necessarily make sense to everyone else. Your proving my point again as far as i am concerned.

History as well Quran mentions it,all the Hadith and Sunnah are history...

Even though you were speaking to PluckyAli, i cant help it notice that the same thing that you consider unreliable (the hadith and Sunnah), you are quoting as evidence for your statement. you are going around in circles.
Hope this gives you food for thought
thipps.

 

[GTv13]

GTv13, are you going to tell me and everyone here that each word in arabic has only one meaning? A word can have many meanings. Why choose one over the other?

I never said that each word in Arabic has only one meaning.Every language has words that can have more than one meaning some more than others.
I dont even get it why I have to answer this to you,but well you asked the brilliant question.

but we can get to that once you have proven your point, which you havent. And uve ignored the rest of what I said. I find your methodology for interpretation of the Qur'an difficult to accept as its based on personal interpretation as i explained before.

Do me a favor let me know exactly what you want me to prove to you,maybe if you go back and think about it you'll understand what I ment in the first place.I love it how you say my own interpretation,my own interpretation is my comment below the verse,again please go back and look at my post and my comment below the verse and you'll see that there is nothinng wrong with it,if there is lett me know I'll deffinetly correct it,the reason why I said as far as I understand is because I was leting you know that it was my own opinion and that Im not 100% sure it ment that,and it also ment you should not belive in it but you should think for yourself,as well if you have a better explenation of the verse,I mean the word,my people, you could let me know.But you didnt.You said it ment the Quraish,if thats true than thats very few people.
Now the reason I did not answer to you at first was because I did not see a reason to answer because you should have understood it in the first place.I dont get it why do you pick on self explenatory comments.

Every other person will be coming with his/her own interpretation. This is following your personal desire and I hope i dont need to explain what happens when we follow that

Im not sure what you talkin about,nobody can make the verse say what they want and Im not sure where you get the idea that Im trying to make the verse say what I want,its all in your mind.

Where does that leave us? and interestingly you say that you understand things because of:
Quote:
Common sense,thats all I have to say,the way the verse is being told.

Obviously its not making sense to other people on this forum. I reiterate again that what makes sense to you will not necessarily make sense to everyone else. Your proving my point again as far as i am concerned.

Dude you asked me this:

That is to say you misunderstood the basics of Islam.how you knew it was directed at the people of that time,there is no way of knowing particular verse is for people of that age or this age,so what i am trying to say is everyone who dislikes some verse can say that verse is for the period of that time or this time.

49:2. O ye who believe! Raise not your voices above the voice of the Prophet, nor speak aloud to him in talk, as ye may speak aloud to one another, lest your deeds become vain and ye perceive not. 49:3. Those that lower their voices in the presence of Allah's Messenger,- their hearts has Allah tested for piety: for them is Forgiveness and a great Reward. "
Common sense tells us that the verse above is directed at the people at the time when Prophet Muhammed was alive,peace be upon him.You know how we can know that?Well simply because we can not speak to Prophet Muhammed,which means we can not raise our voices by speaking to him, Prophet Muhammed is not with us that is why we can not speak to him.Im not saying that the verse is not directed to us just because I want it to be so,but Im saying it because is the truth.All the verses that say obey Prophet Muhammed is also not directed to us because we can not obey Prophet Muhammed, because he has died,peace be upon him.

Even though you were speaking to PluckyAli, i cant help it notice that the same thing that you consider unreliable (the hadith and Sunnah), you are quoting as evidence for your statement. you are going around in circles.
Hope this gives you food for thought

Look, Sunnah,the Hadith is history so I accept it as such,but do I know if everything anybody says happend is true I cant know for sure,is not easy to prove.History tells us about Prophet Muhammed life,as well the Quran,again how acurate is the history I dont know.But asking the question how do we know abot Prophet Muhmmed life is like asking how we know about any other Prophet,again history and the Quran tells us about them.I dont say nor think that all Hadith are false,but some obviosly are.We can not make that be our religious guide, what we are not so sure of,any other religios teaching along side the Quran is not needed,that is what God Almighty tells us in the Quran.
Here are some verses that I posted befor just to remind you.
006.114
YUSUFALI: Say: "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah? - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.

YUSUFALI: Say: "What thing is most weighty in evidence?" Say: "Allah is witness between me and you; This Qur'an hath been revealed to me by inspiration, that I may warn you and all whom it reaches. Can ye possibly bear witness that besides Allah there is another Allah?" Say: "Nay! I cannot bear witness!" Say: "But in truth He is the one Allah, and I truly am innocent of (your blasphemy of) joining others with Him."

YUSUFALI: These are nothing but names which ye have devised,- ye and your fathers,- for which Allah has sent down no authority (whatever). They follow nothing but conjecture and what their own souls desire!- Even though there has already come to them Guidance from their Lord!
All the verses above tell us that we should follow the Quran and nothing else is mentioned.
By the way why did you quote me when you didnt say anything about what I said, I dont get it.Do you understand what I ment in your first quote, in your last post,if not I'll explain.
peace.

 

[thipps]

I never said that each word in Arabic has only one meaning.Every language has words that can have more than one meaning some more than others.
I dont even get it why I have to answer this to you,but well you asked the brilliant question.

oh you never said it but you implied it alright.go back to where i quoted your text to which i replied. mainly to your saying "Do the verses have a different meaning in Arabic?"

Do me a favor let me know exactly what you want me to prove to you,maybe if you go back and think about it you'll understand what I ment in the first place.I love it how you say my own interpretation,my own interpretation is my comment below the verse,again please go back and look at my post and my comment below the verse and you'll see that there is nothinng wrong with it,if there is lett me know I'll deffinetly correct it,the reason why I said as far as I understand is because I was leting you know that it was my own opinion and that Im not 100% sure it ment that,and it also ment you should not belive in it but you should think for yourself,as well if you have a better explenation of the verse,I mean the word,my people, you could let me know.But you didnt.You said it ment the Quraish,if thats true than thats very few people.

Prove your point.. not just tell us. Anyone here can tell you something.
Yes, it IS your own personal interpretation. You've admitted that yourself. Maybe you havent noticed but the people around you arent clones... everyone is different. They dont think like you do. and again, you prove my point by saying "it was my own opinion ". Thats exactly the problem as i've explained to you twice already.

Now the reason I did not answer to you at first was because I did not see a reason to answer because you should have understood it in the first place.I dont get it why do you pick on self explenatory comments.

You should have understood what you were told too but you didnt, did you?

Common sense tells us that the verse above is directed at the people at the time when Prophet Muhammed was alive,peace be upon him.You know how we can know that?Well simply because we can not speak to Prophet Muhammed,which means we can not raise our voices by speaking to him, Prophet Muhammed is not with us that is why we can not speak to him.Im not saying that the verse is not directed to us just because I want it to be so,but Im saying it because is the truth.All the verses that say obey Prophet Muhammed is also not directed to us because we can not obey Prophet Muhammed, because he has died,peace be upon him.

Maybe english is a problem with you. Your use of common sense was answered. No need to repeat that faulty argument.

Look, Sunnah,the Hadith is history so I accept it as such,but do I know if everything anybody says happend is true I cant know for sure,is not easy to prove.History tells us about Prophet Muhammed life,as well the Quran,again how acurate is the history I dont know.But asking the question how do we know abot Prophet Muhmmed life is like asking how we know about any other Prophet,again history and the Quran tells us about them.I dont say nor think that all Hadith are false,but some obviosly are.We can not make that be our religious guide, what we are not so sure of,any other religios teaching along side the Quran is not needed,that is what God Almighty tells us in the Quran.

So, first you dont reject hadith completely. That means that you again pick and choose the hadith even as you please. Again, following your desire. again, no need to tell you where that can lead.
dear, who said every single 'hadith' is true? don't you know science of hadith?
never heard of ahadith classified as weak or fabricated?

 

[GTv13]

oh you never said it but you implied it alright.go back to where i quoted your text to which i replied. mainly to your saying "Do the verses have a different meaning in Arabic?"

You right I did ask that question,but as usual you never answer my questions,
And the reason behind the question was the fact that you kept telling me how you knew Arabic and you didnt need any translations,so when I was saying this is what the verse is telling us you kept saying I dont know Arabic,as you do, and so in your opinion I was wrong.So I asked you the simple question, do the verses have different meanig in Arabic in your opinion since you would not accept the translations.

Prove your point.. not just tell us. Anyone here can tell you something.
Yes, it IS your own personal interpretation. You've admitted that yourself. Maybe you havent noticed but the people around you arent clones... everyone is different. They dont think like you do. and again, you prove my point by saying "it was my own opinion ". Thats exactly the problem as i've explained to you twice already.

Dude only the word my people was my own interpretation not the hole verse.I dont get it what you trying to prove.I know people dont think like I do,that is why I didnt say my own people means Muslims for sure,I didnt say Im 100% sure it means that.But I said as far as I understand, it made the most sense to me, that the word my people ment the Muslims,and if somebody has a better explenation of the word then I'll except it.Now rememeber when somebody says someting, than they say As far as I understand it means that,it means that they are not trying to convince anyone what they just said was the truth for sure.But unless you have a better explenation of the word my people or my own people than my interpretation still stands,at least for myself, remember I was never speaking for everybody.
I hope you get it.

Maybe english is a problem with you. Your use of common sense was answered. No need to repeat that faulty argument.

I trully dont have a clue what you saying.You always say things that are unclear as it gets.Please explain your point since you strarted talkin about it.
As you should know you said this:
That is to say you misunderstood the basics of Islam.how you knew it was directed at the people of that time,there is no way of knowing particular verse is for people of that age or this age,so what i am trying to say is everyone who dislikes some verse can say that verse is for the period of that time or this time.
Than in my last post I proved to you how we can know if a verse is directed at us,which makes your point above false.But instead to tell me that I was right you reply with some nonsene,that I dont understand.

So, first you dont reject hadith completely. That means that you again pick and choose the hadith even as you please. Again, following your desire. again, no need to tell you where that can lead.
dear, who said every single 'hadith' is true? don't you know science of hadith?
never heard of ahadith classified as weak or fabricated?

Look its simple we all know the Quran is from God as well we know God Almighty, promised to protect the Quran.Which means if we follow the Quran we wont ever get lost because there is no falshood in it.But if we follow anything else than the Quran than we can easly get lost.God does not like us to seek any other guidence than the Quran.If we use any other book as our religios teaching than that means that the Quran from God the Almighty,is not good enaugh for us,which makes it idol-worship.In the Quran we have everything we need to be Muslims.
Now as I said befor I dont reject all the Sunnah and the Hadith but do I know what Hadith is 100% true, no I dont nor does anybody else,do some Hadith make more sense to me than others and do I think that some hadith are true,yes,but than again I cant say for sure this Hadith is 100% true nor can anyone else,we can only guess,but than again some guesses are better than others..The Hadith and the Sunnah are Prophet Muhammed sayings and his behavor,obviosly every human being and every Prophet befor Prophet Muhammed behaved in a certain way as well they all had sayings.But that dont mean that we have to follow there sayings and behavor,but we all are required to follow there Message from God the Almighty.People managed to change the Bible which is the Book from God, why would you think that Prophet Muhammed Hadith could not be corrupted.Just saying this Hadith is right and we should do what it says,does not make it right.Billions of people belive that the Bible is as it was when God Almighty,sent us the the Bible,Prophet Jesus deliverd us God's Message and Im sure the Bible was pure back than.Now your best argument does not look so good, does it,cuz you keep saying if most people say the Hadith are true, and we should follow it, than it deffinetly is true.
Remember befor Prophet Muhammed there were Muslims and they did not need any Hadith to be good Muslims all they needed was the God's Guidence,God,s Book.
Anyway Hadith and Sunnah is history and I accept it as such,so why have history be our guide when we have the Quran which is not history but it is writen for us just as those befor us it contains verses that deal with this time as well the past,the Quran is timeless which can not be said for the Hadith,history never deals with the future unlike the Quran, nor did Prophet Muhammed knew the future.
Here is an example:
God tells us in the Quran how to do the washing befor prayer,but most Muslims who are following the Sunnah changed it so that we have to do like 7 steps instead of 4 that God tells us.
Now doing more than 4 steps is not requried we all have to accept that because that is what God is telling us is good for us.
We have Sunnah telling us this is how it should be done and on the other side we have the Quran where God tells us how we should do it.
Now which one do you belive is right,well its obvios whatever God tells us is always better than anything else anybody else tells us.
So the conclusion is we only have to wash our faces,arms wipe our head and wash our feet to the ankle.
Anybody who thinks there are more steps that are required is obviosly wrong.
But now if anybody does more steps than required but they know thay dont have to and they accept the way God tells us to do it,than I think one can still do more steps as long as we understnad the fact that it is not required.
That is what I think about the Sunnah,I can accept some of the Sunnah but I'll never accept it as our religios guidence beside the Quran.
God never mentions in the Quran any Prophet Muhammed Sunnah but God only tells us that we were given His Book and so we should follow it.
Sorry the reply is a little long.
peace.

 

[thipps]

You right I did ask that question,but as usual you never answer my questions,

I know why you wrote it. but you never seem to understand what im saying. Why do you forget what you have said. I quote your text so that you know why im saying something but you never seem to understand anything. What i wrote WAS the answer but you didnt understand it for some reason.
That question about arabic you answered was a rhetorical one. My real question when i said "Why choose one over the other?" but you ignored that. I dont know why you didnt consider that.

And the reason behind the question was the fact that you kept telling me how you knew Arabic and you didnt need any translations,

umm, that was Friend who explicitly said that she knew arabic and didnt need translation. I just said that you didnt know arabic (or do you?).

Dude only the word my people was my own interpretation not the hole verse.I dont get it what you trying to prove.I know people dont think like I do,that is why I didnt say my own people means Muslims for sure,I didnt say Im 100% sure it means that.But I said as far as I understand, it made the most sense to me, that the word my people ment the Muslims,and if somebody has a better explenation of the word then I'll except it.Now rememeber when somebody says someting, than they say As far as I understand it means that,it means that they are not trying to convince anyone what they just said was the truth for sure.But unless you have a better explenation of the word my people or my own people than my interpretation still stands,at least for myself, remember I was never speaking for everybody.
I hope you get it.

Better explanation?? who will decide that its "better"? you? you will decide for all the muslims which is better? If you say no to these questions, then i say to you that we have already decided whats better for us.
And since this is just your opinion, then i say that you've been heard and you have heard us too. Nothing left to say then, is there?

I trully dont have a clue what you saying.You always say things that are unclear as it gets.Please explain your point since you strarted talkin about it.

I say things clearly. You just dont understand since you seem to forget what you have said and for that matter what others have said too. you were the one who mentioned "Common sense" as an argument for proof, remember? Your point about Common sense as a proof doesnt work as i explained before. Just go back to what i said and try to understand.

As you should know you said this:
That is to say you misunderstood the basics of Islam.how you knew it was directed at the people of that time,there is no way of knowing particular verse is for people of that age or this age,so what i am trying to say is everyone who dislikes some verse can say that verse is for the period of that time or this time.

ummm... no, that was Plucky Ali. Only proves what i said just above. try to keep track of who said what.

Than in my last post I proved to you how we can know if a verse is directed at us,which makes your point above false.But instead to tell me that I was right you reply with some nonsene,that I dont understand.

Again, you proved nothing. Your use of "common sense" as proof doesnt hold water. Already explained that. Hope you have something new to say next time.

Now as I said befor I dont reject all the Sunnah and the Hadith but do I know what Hadith is 100% true, no I dont nor does anybody else,do some Hadith make more sense to me than others and do I think that some hadith are true,yes,but than again I cant say for sure this Hadith is 100% true nor can anyone else,we can only guess,but than again some guesses are better than others..

Yet again, you prove my point: Your interpretation is based purely on personal understanding. Explained to you the problem with that.
Oddly enough, you admit that even when you consider some hadith "true", that you're guessing; meaning you're not sure of its authenticity. So, why do you even consider it? Why do you use unreliable information (according to you)? by the way, when some hadith makes "more sense" to you, what do you do with it?

The Hadith and the Sunnah are Prophet Muhammed sayings and his behavor,obviosly every human being and every Prophet befor Prophet Muhammed behaved in a certain way as well they all had sayings.But that dont mean that we have to follow there sayings and behavor,but we all are required to follow there Message from God the Almighty.

It is well-known amond Muslims that when the Qur'an was revealed, it surpeceded all the previous revelations. Once the final messenger was sent, all of humanity must follow him & Allaah will not accept any religion other than Islam. So, no muslim will say that he should follow the Shariah of,say, Moses or Jesus (pbut). So, I dont know where you're getting your information from that makes you make this kind of argument that is not true. And as far as following/obeying the Prophet Mohammad(pbuh) is concerned, just one example:
He who obeys the Messenger, obeys Allah: But if any turn away, We have not sent thee to watch over their (evil deeds). [4:80, Yusuf Ali's Translation]
So, I dont agree with what you have said.

People managed to change the Bible which is the Book from God, why would you think that Prophet Muhammed Hadith could not be corrupted.Just saying this Hadith is right and we should do what it says,does not make it right.

it seems that you like to repeat yourself and you like to make me repeat myself. Read what i wrote before. Never heard of Science of hadith?? classifications of weak and fabricated hadith?? You wrongly state that someone just says that its right. that means you dont know what you are talking about.

Billions of people belive that the Bible is as it was when God Almighty,sent us the the Bible,Prophet Jesus deliverd us God's Message and Im sure the Bible was pure back than.Now your best argument does not look so good, does it,cuz you keep saying if most people say the Hadith are true, and we should follow it, than it deffinetly is true.

I believe that was PluckyAli's argument. I never said any such thing. You should know that in islam, majority is not a proof of truth. I disagree with PluckyAli's method of argument.
I mentioned the science of hadith, the classification of ahadith. I will further mention that there is such a thing as chain of narration involved as well.

Remember befor Prophet Muhammed there were Muslims and they did not need any Hadith to be good Muslims all they needed was the God's Guidence,God,s Book.

thats not correct exactly but ill get to this later if we ever sort this other stuff out. this requires a separate post.

Anyway Hadith and Sunnah is history and I accept it as such,so why have history be our guide when we have the Quran which is not history but it is writen for us just as those befor us it contains verses that deal with this time as well the past,the Quran is timeless which can not be said for the Hadith,history never deals with the future unlike the Quran, nor did Prophet Muhammed knew the future.
Here is an example:
God tells us in the Quran how to do the washing befor prayer,but most Muslims who are following the Sunnah changed it so that we have to do like 7 steps instead of 4 that God tells us.
Now doing more than 4 steps is not requried we all have to accept that because that is what God is telling us is good for us.
We have Sunnah telling us this is how it should be done and on the other side we have the Quran where God tells us how we should do it.
Now which one do you belive is right,well its obvios whatever God tells us is always better than anything else anybody else tells us.
So the conclusion is we only have to wash our faces,arms wipe our head and wash our feet to the ankle.
Anybody who thinks there are more steps that are required is obviosly wrong.
But now if anybody does more steps than required but they know thay dont have to and they accept the way God tells us to do it,than I think one can still do more steps as long as we understnad the fact that it is not required.
That is what I think about the Sunnah,I can accept some of the Sunnah but I'll never accept it as our religios guidence beside the Quran.
God never mentions in the Quran any Prophet Muhammed Sunnah but God only tells us that we were given His Book and so we should follow it.
Sorry the reply is a little long.
peace.

Some of what you have said is somewhat odd but there is way too much here to sort out already. we'll leave this for later. some of what you have said is repetition. You can just read again what you were told by others and we can leave it at that.
i have a few examples/questions of my own for you as im interested in learning how you know the answers to them. I'll ask them in a seperate thread and see what you say.