Hadith

[GTv13]

My real question when i said "Why choose one over the other?" but you ignored that. I dont know why you didnt consider that.

OK,if you want me to answer that question let me know where did I chose one over the other ,whatever you mean with that.
No I dont no Arabic.

Better explanation?? who will decide that its "better"? you? you will decide for all the muslims which is better?

All I said was the part in the verse my own people,ment Muslims,as far as I understand.I hope for once you understand the comment,I dont want to keep explening myself when its really simple to understand.I was never speaking for all the Muslims but only for myself,we all have the right to speak for ourself,but if you prove me wrong than my interpretation of my people, will no longer be right not even to me,and I'll accept that.But so far someone only said my people ment just the Quraish ,which does not make much sense to me.

Your point about Common sense as a proof doesnt work as i explained before

.Im not sure what you have against common sense.
But I'll say this:common sense tells us that we can not obey Prophet Muhammed now, but we can obey God at anytime.

ummm... no, that was Plucky Ali. Only proves what i said just above. try to keep track of who said what.

OK,my bad, Im sorry,I hope it wont happen again,I was replying to this tho:
Common sense tells us that the verse above is directed at the people at the time when Prophet Muhammed was alive,peace be upon him.You know how we can know that?Well simply because we can not speak to Prophet Muhammed,which means we can not raise our voices by speaking to him, Prophet Muhammed is not with us that is why we can not speak to him.Im not saying that the verse is not directed to us just because I want it to be so,but Im saying it because is the truth.All the verses that say obey Prophet Muhammed is also not directed to us because we can not obey Prophet Muhammed, because he has died,peace be upon him.
You quoted me above than you said this:
Maybe english is a problem with you. Your use of common sense was answered. No need to repeat that faulty argument.
I dont get the answer.

It is well-known amond Muslims that when the Qur'an was revealed, it surpeceded all the previous revelations. Once the final messenger was sent, all of humanity must follow him & Allaah will not accept any religion other than Islam.

The first part of what you said above is right but I cant say the same for the second part.
You dont want to associate partners with God but thats what it kinder sounds like where you said we must follow him and Allah,but Im sure thats not what you ment.I guess is just the way you said it thats wrong.
Im not sure we can follow God Almighty but we can obey God,does it anywhere says in the Quran follow God I dont think so it always says obey God.We can follow God's Message,God's guidence and so on.People could have followed Prophet Muhammed when he was alive,peace be upon him,but we cant do that right now.What God tells us in the Quran is that Prophet Muhammed only duty was to deliver the Message.We can follow Prophet Muhammed religion just as God tells us follow the religion of Abraham,they both practiced the same religion.Following or obeying Prophet Muhammed dont mean Muhammed the person but his teachings from God is that we should follow and obey,which is the Quran.God tells us in the Quran that Prophet Muhammed dosnt say anything of his own but he only tells us what God has reveald to him,God commanded Prophet Muhammed to teach us the Quran so obeying Prophet Muhammed is obeying God Message,with that obeying God Almighty, the One and Only.

And as far as following/obeying the Prophet Mohammad(pbuh) is concerned, just one example:
He who obeys the Messenger, obeys Allah: But if any turn away, We have not sent thee to watch over their (evil deeds). [4:80, Yusuf Ali's Translation]
So, I dont agree with what you have said.

Please answer my question just so I understand what you mean better,what do you mean by obeying Prophet Muhammed?
How can we obey Prophet Muhammed and if so why.

Never heard of Science of hadith?? classifications of weak and fabricated hadith?? You wrongly state that someone just says that its right

Science of Hadith tells us that the people have to verife if any of the companions ever lied if they find out they did then they reject the Hadith.
You dont need anybody to tell you this, we all know that there is just no way for us to know for sure if they ever lied or not,not possible,saying such a nonsense is funny.Only God Almighty knows if anybody is a lier or if he has ever lied.Even if we get most of the Hadith as being right, there will still be some that are wrong because we cant tell the difference for sure.

Again Im sorrry for bringing up PluckyAli's argument in my replys to you.
peace.

 

[thipps]

h| Gtv13,
I'd like you to answer a few questions as im interested in learning how you know these things.
Please answer as briefly as possible but you must provide details of the source of your
information so that I understand how you know. I'm sure you have other things to do, so i'll
just ask 3 questions for now. If I feel that there is need for more, then I will ask more.

1. What are the number of Rak'ahs in each prayer?
2. How many times one should circumambulate the Ka’bah i.e. number of rounds in a Tawaaf?
3. How many times one should go between al-Safa and al-Marwah (during Hajj/umrah)?

Hope you will respond.
thipps.

 

[GTv13]

1. What are the number of Rak'ahs in each prayer?
2. How many times one should circumambulate the Ka’bah i.e. number of rounds in a Tawaaf?
3. How many times one should go between al-Safa and al-Marwah (during Hajj/umrah)?

You can find all you answers here http://www.submission.org/duties.html its one of the best Islamic sites on the net.They give pretty good explenation as well prove why most Muslims are a little lost.Now dont be like some other people who dont even want to check the site out,but they just keep saying they aint no real Muslims,when I ask why, I never get an inteligent answer.
http://www.submission.org/salat/
you can click on that link than the third link from above to find out about the number of Rak'ahs in prayer.
For your second and third questions click on this link http://www.submission.org/hajj/
The first 3 links should have the answers to your questions.
peace.

 

[bananabrain]

i don't have a stake in this thread, so this is just my view from the "peanut gallery", as it were...

if i follow this very interesting discussion, it seems to me that gtv13 is arguing for a more liberal interpretation of the hadith and sunnah overall. however, i'm not sure, on the basis of the arguments so far, that in the case of particular examples, the argument is being justified. now, while i can see how a more lenient or, if you prefer, liberal set of interpretations, it appears that it's not being backed up by an authority. can we, for example, settle on one particular example and show how the different interpretations can be considered different levels of stringency?

for me, a PoV would appear more authoritative if it is backed up by an integrated position and supported by linguistic analysis and traditional sources. at the moment, thipps is doing this (as far as i can tell) and gtv13 is arguing from a more emotional position. and, incidentally, the whole discussion is not helped by people accusing each other of not being proper muslims, or claiming that they have a monopoly on true interpretation. it's a cheap technique and doesn't do the religion justice.

whilst i personally believe that there are multiple interpretations of islamic law, i also believe this is not a barrier to islamic unity; i would be interested to hear about any frameworks in which these positions can be reconciled, whether it's in terms of tariqas within a greater shari'a of whether it can be done as we do it in judaism, by distinguishing between normative practice and that of the "pious" who wish to go lifnim min'shurat ha-deen (beyond the strict requirements), which is a concept i would be surprised not to encounter within islam.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[thipps]

Science of Hadith tells us that the people have to verife if any of the companions ever lied if they find out they did then they reject the Hadith.
You dont need anybody to tell you this, we all know that there is just no way for us to know for sure if they ever lied or not,not possible,saying such a nonsense is funny.Only God Almighty knows if anybody is a lier or if he has ever lied.Even if we get most of the Hadith as being right, there will still be some that are wrong because we cant tell the difference for sure.

Im going to ask you this once only eventhough it seems pretty clear what you just said. When you say "Science of Hadith tells us that the people have to verife if any of the companions ever lied... " you mentioned "the companions"... this, among muslims, refers to the Companions of the Prophet (pbuh). Did I understand you correctly that you referred to these same Companions (may Allaah be pleased with them)??

 

[GTv13]

To tell you the truth never read much about the science of the Hadith,I kinder went over the subject very quick,still dont understand why is it called science of the Hadith.
But I did note somewhere that umm..befor they proclaim the Hadith as 100% truth they make sure that the people who originaly told the Hadith never lied, now that is usualy many generations of people.I just dont buy it,there is no way anybody can make sure somebody never lied,not to mention the people who were dead.
The Hadith started to be collected 200 years later after Prophet Muhammed death,peace be upon him,and his closest followers never wrote any of his sayings.Only when his closet follower one of the best Muslims at the time died ,did the Hadith started to be writen.
So 200 years later people started collecting all the Hadith and started writing it,as well they had to make sure they did not wrote, I mean proclaim any of the false Hadith as authentic,which is just not possible.
Lets face it we all know how people sayings can easly change from person to person,so if most say the truth few could change it slightly which would result corruption.
Some guy who calls himself a Scholler does not have the knowlege to know for sure whats the absolut truth and what has been changed.

To your question, I did not ment just the companions who were at the time with Prophet Muhammed but all the people who are given the credit for the Hadith, its usually two or more persons, obviosly,sience none of the Hadith has been writen at the time of Prophet Muhammed,for a reason.
But than again I did say it bad,I mean I could have said it better in first place.
You have to remember that most of the Prophet Muhammed companions were not always Muslims,as we know not all belived in Prophet Muhammed at first but later they became one of the best Muslims like Ali.
Anyway as we know everybody lies but not everybody makes up big lies,maybe some people dont lie at all I duno,but most do tho.So even if the companions of Prophet Muhammed did not ever lie as Muslims,not even told any small lies ,but they could have befor they became Muslim,but now I dont know this for sure,but it is fair to say that some have if very few,after all we are humans,we are not perfect.
I would say the Prophet Muhammed companions were his closest followers at the time,so thats what I think companions would mean.
But now most of his Hadith dont come from his closest companions but the people who just saw,heard, Prophet Muhammed speak once or few times,even those who were not real Muslims but made up lies against Prophet Muhammed.
So many people have been telling Prophet Muhammed Hadits after his death,peace be upon him, and not all were true,if not most.
That is the reason why we should not follow Hadith but the Quran alone,I mean after all why guess when we dont have to.After all Hadith are history and we all know people can change history as being different than it really was,specialy history befor the video age,even know when we watch some people on camera telling us this is what happend in ww2 we still dont know for sure if they are 100%truthfull.
peace.

 

[GTv13]

whatever this site dont work very well with firefox,all my typing just got waisted after my usual long explenation,bah...
But anyway I'll just say this no I did not mean just the companions who were with Prophet Muhammed,but I ment the hole generation of people who brought us the Hadith and who get credits for it.
I did say it wrong tho,of course all the people who lived after Prophet Muhammed who never been with Prophet Muhammed for a longer period of time are not his companions.
Anyway did any of Prophet Muhammed companions ever lied I dont know for sure,but it be fair to say that some have,maybe they did not tell any big lies but they could have told some not so big lies,after all we are human beings, we are not perfect.As well I have to point out not all the companions were Muslims,obviosly, befor Prophet Muhammed Message most of them werent,even when Prophet Muhammmed proclaimed that he was a Messenger not all belived at first like Ali but later he became one of the best Muslims,he got the name Sword of Allah as far as I know.
peace.
oh I was wrong but I leve it as it is.

 

[GTv13]

whilst i personally believe that there are multiple interpretations of islamic law, i also believe this is not a barrier to islamic unity; i would be interested to hear about any frameworks in which these positions can be reconciled, whether it's in terms of tariqas within a greater shari'a of whether it can be done as we do it in judaism, by distinguishing between normative practice and that of the "pious" who wish to go lifnim min'shurat ha-deen (beyond the strict requirements), which is a concept i would be surprised not to encounter within islam.

I guess we all know there are multiple interpretation of Islamic law, since every sect is a little different.But that is because of the man made books, I mean Hadith.If all the Muslims where following just the Quran than there would be no room for any sects nor could anybody differ in religion in any way.
In truth it is a barrier to Islamic unity, no people can unite if they differ on the issue ,just not possible,people can live togheter in peace but that dont make them united in religion.
You mention "greater shari'a" you right, there is Greater Law and thats the Quran,in fact is the only religous law.
People have no right to change the religious laws,we have to accept that what God Almighty has prescribed for us if we wish to be true belivers.
It is simple, in fact it always has been simple, but people have the urge to change the religion in some way or other and some even make the religion harder than it should be.
One does not really becomes a better beliver if they punish themself not at all,God tells us he made our religion easy for us,God does not want any hardship on us.
Jews and Christen are no different, but lets face it we are all people and we all have the same fealings, we all want to be right and do things our way.
How many different sects are there in Christanity, Jews also differ in there beliefs.Somtime I wonder,most the time, why do people cant understand the simplest of things.I mean why would anybody want a god that is human or that lives in the see and so on,is it not simple to understand that the best God is the One Who created all this,the One Who does not die nor can anybody do anything with out His will.But it is not really that people cant understand it, its that they refuse to belive in there Creator.
The Jews have replaced the Torah pretty much ,God's Book with the talmud for no reason except wanting to change that which God has sent down to them.
We are all the same, but in the end only one belief will be the right belief and thats submission to God, the One and Only, the Creator of everything that exist and the only One Who can help us or punish us,everything good is with God.
Now dont think Im atacking you in any way Im just saying what I think,why are people geting lost and what I think is right.
I think everybody has that right unless they are talking with disrespect to someones religion specialy the religions that belive in one God.
peace.

 

[thipps]

To tell you the truth never read much about the science of the Hadith

Thats the problem. You dont know what you are talking about. you have not read and, thus, have not understood the great effort put in to authenticating the Sunnah.

As well I have to point out not all the companions were Muslims,obviosly, befor Prophet Muhammed Message most of them werent,even when Prophet Muhammmed proclaimed that he was a Messenger not all belived at first like Ali but later he became one of the best Muslims,he got the name Sword of Allah as far as I know.

If you think you have made some sort of point, i dont see it. We are talking about muslims here, i dont know why you are talking about the past of these people when they werent even Muslim.

The Hadith started to be collected 200 years later after Prophet Muhammed death,peace be upon him,and his closest followers never wrote any of his sayings.Only when his closet follower one of the best Muslims at the time died ,did the Hadith started to be writen.
So 200 years later people started collecting all the Hadith and started writing it,as well they had to make sure they did not wrote, I mean proclaim any of the false Hadith as authentic,which is just not possible.

Again, not correct on both counts. You obvioulsy dont know when the hadith were first written. You have made so many accusations already with nothing to back it up. So, im not going to detail every single thing here. Regarding your first incorrect statement, I'll just point you to the following websites:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Hadith/hadith.html

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Hadith/exisnad.html

At this point, it is assumed that you have read the content of the above two links. Read them and please try to understand that you are incorrect in your understanding.
Regarding your saying "his closest followers never wrote any of his sayings..." again, i beg to differ. I give you a sample.

Narrated by Abdullah ibn Amr ibn Al`As:
I used to write everything which I heard from the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him). I intended (by it) to memorise it. The Quraysh prohibited me saying: Do you write everything that you hear from him while the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) is a human being: he speaks in anger and pleasure?
So I stopped writing, and mentioned it to the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him). He signalled with his finger to his mouth and said: Write, by Him in Whose hand my soul lies, only right comes out from it. [Abu-Dawud, hadith # 3639]

For the sake of brevity, I have not quoted others (rest assured that there are). This mere sample is enough to falsify your claim. I mention this second hadith to show you something else...
Narrated Abu Huraira:
There is none among the companions of the Prophet who has narrated more Hadiths than I except 'Abdallah bin Amr (bin Al-'As) who used to write them and I never did the same. [Sahih Al-Bukhari, Vol. 1, Hadith # 113]

As a side note regarding hadith authentication methods (in science of hadith), you should note from the above two that these are two different companions of the Prophet(pbuh), two different chains of narrators, two different authors of two different collections(Bukhari and Abu-Dawud) in which a narration agrees with one another. Hope this gives you food for thought.
Something else of note. The Prophet(pbuh) warned us of your type in an authentic narration in which he(pbuh) said,"Indeed, I have been granted the Qur'an and something similar to it. A time will come when a man will be reclining upon his couch saying,"Stick to this Qur'an.So whatever you find within it as being lawful, then take it as being lawful. And whatever you find within it as being unlawful, then take it as being unlawful.""[1] The fact that you are here and saying exactly what he(pbuh) warned us against, should tell you (and people in the peanut gallery) something.
Allaah says in the Qur'an (the translation of the meaning of which is):
And whoever contradicts and opposes the Messenger (Muhammad SAW) after the right path has been shown clearly to him, and follows other than the believers' way. We shall keep him in the path he has chosen, and burn him in Hell - what an evil destination. [Qur’an 4:115]
Allaah has ordered that matters be referred back to Him and His Messenger when there is a disagreement and difference, so that the final judgement is that of the Qur'an and the Sunnah. He says:

O you who believe! Obey Allaah and obey the Messenger and those of you who are in authority. If you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allaah and His Messenger, if you believe in Allaah and in the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for final determination. [4:59]

This aayah explains that disputes and unknown matters are to be referred back to the Book of Allaah and the Sunnah of His Messenger (pbuh) so that the Muslims settle their disputes with them. This being a sign of truthfulness and the proof of Eemaan [faith]; while he who does not refer back in judgment to the Book and the Sunnah in disputes and take judgment from them then he is not a believer in Allaah and the Last Day. Perhaps the clearest proof of this great matter which is counted as the crux of Eeman is His saying,
But no, by your Lord, they can have no Faith until they make you judge in all disputes between them and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions and accept (them) with full submission. [4:65]
Ibn Katheer commented upon this verse as follows:
"Just this earth-rendering oath is sufficient to cause the mountains to fall to the ground and for the believer's jugular vein to tremble in terror and his limbs to shake with fear and for the hearts to rise to the throats and the eyes to roll up in their sockets. The Most Just of all judges has sworn by Himself that no one believes until he makes the Messenger (pbuh) judge in all affairs. So whatever judgment he has passed then it is obligatory to submit to it, outwardly and inwardly, since it is the truth and what is there besides the truth except misguidance" [tafseer Qur'aanil-'Adheem (4/85-86)]

That is the reason why we should not follow Hadith but the Quran alone,I mean after all why guess when we dont have to.

Most of what you said was repetition but, after having a look at that website of yours where this big number game was being played to calculate the answers to my questions, i'm surprised that you claim that you use "common sense" and that you don't follow guesses. There is no where in the Qur'an that tells you to play this number game and follow this strategy to know things. The Qur'an keeps telling you to obey Allah and his Messenger, and all you can think of is to come up with this numbers business.

But anyway I'll just say this no I did not mean just the companions who were with Prophet Muhammed,but I ment the hole generation of people who brought us the Hadith and who get credits for it.

That is even worse and i'll tell you below why.

Anyway did any of Prophet Muhammed companions ever lied I dont know for sure,but it be fair to say that some have,maybe they did not tell any big lies but they could have told some not so big lies,after all we are human beings, we are not perfect.

Ignoring the fact that you consider pretty much everyone untrustworthy, since this is a small thing considering that you also include the Companions of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in them as well!! May Allaah protect us all from such thoughts. According to you, not only are the Companions (May Allaah be pleased with them) of Allaah’s Messenger(pbuh) capable of lying but they would do so in regards to Allaah’s Messenger(pbuh)!!!
The meaning of this doubt and attack is that all reliable narrators from the amongst salafus-saalih [2] were untrustworthy liars. it necessitates accusing them of either telling lies and misleading the people or of ignorance. Indeed, Allaah rescued them from these things and they knew the reality of the statement of the Messenger of Allaah(pbuh) "Whoever lies upon me deliberately, then let him take his seat in the Fire" [3]
In the end, the most gravest of matters;did not Allaah, the All-Knowing, say:
And the first to lead the way, of the Muhajirin and the Ansar, and those who followed them in goodness - Allah is well pleased with them and they are well pleased with Him, and He hath made ready for them Gardens underneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide for ever. That is the supreme triumph. [Qur’an 9:100]
You consider untrustworthy and capable of lies (and that too against the Messenger of Allaah(pbuh)) those regarding whom Allaah testified Himself that He was well pleased with!!?? Didnt Allaah know that these people would invent lies against His Messenger(pbuh)?? How can you claim that Allaah is well pleased with liers and that too of such a nature?!! You erroneously claim that you follow the Qur'anic teachings. Not only have you admitted that you possess no knowledge/understanding of matters of hadith but you have also demonstrated that you have less than that regarding the Qur'an.
At this point, I see no reason to continue this discussion especially in light of the fact that you have not only insulted the Companions(May Allaah be pleased with them) of Allaah's Messenger(pbuh), but that you have also invented a lie again Allaah, The Mighty and Magestic. And I seek refuge with Allaah from that!
You have crossed the line. This I cannot allow to go on anymore.
No doubt the best speech is the Book of Allaah and the best of guidance is the guidance of Mohammad(pbuh).
===================
[1] Sahih: Related by Abu Dawud and Tirmidhi.
[2] the people of the first 3 generations of Muslims about whom Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) said that they were the best of the people
[3] Authenticated by Sh. Albaani. He recorded 63 different routes for it!!! 63! This is a mutawatir hadith which means it is one which is reported by such a large number of people that they cannot be expected to agree upon a lie, all of them together. (Gtv13 dont forget the relevant example on that 2nd link)