Differences Between Moksha And Nirvana

Aupmanyav said:
Yes, energy may have its properties, you may term it as being conscious (double-slit experiment) but kindly acknowledge that this consciousness is totally different from human consciousness.
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Such an acknowledgement would be untrue, although humans are a very unique expression of it. Through speech and language, we have come to question its nature, but this doesn't mean it is different than other expressions fundamentally.

Indeed, to look at human behavior, it becomes quite obvious we are not nearly as unique as we think we are. For me, our insistence on being the highest form of life is very arrogant and patently false, even on this planet.
 
Aupmanyav said:
Yes, energy may have its properties, you may term it as being conscious (double-slit experiment) but kindly acknowledge that this consciousness is totally different from human consciousness.
Click to expand...

It would be erroneous to take the double-slit experiment as evidence of consciousness - it is evidence of quantum physics, and more profoundly, the effect of observation on reality (I am more minded of the concept of "we are all the universe observing itself").

Human consciousness is as different from Divine Consciousness, the Universal Mind, as a drop of water is to an ocean.

It is still the same substance (or should that be, 'the same immaterial'? :D) simply on a different scale. All living things have this.
 
I said:
It would be erroneous to take the double-slit experiment as evidence of consciousness - it is evidence of quantum physics, and more profoundly, the effect of observation on reality (I am more minded of the concept of "we are all the universe observing itself").

Human consciousness is as different from Divine Consciousness, the Universal Mind, as a drop of water is to an ocean.

It is still the same substance (or should that be, 'the same immaterial'? :D) simply on a different scale. All living things have this.
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I put many conditions for accepting properties/consciousness of the sub-atomic particles. Do not overlook them. I said:

Yes, energy may have its properties, you may term it as being conscious (double-slit experiment) but kindly acknowledge that this consciousness is totally different from human consciousness.

But you introduce "divine consciousness" and "universal mind", and compare them to an ocean and human/animal consciousness to a drop. Are they same, only bigger forms of human/animal consciousness. Please tell me more about them. Where do they reside? How do they act?
 
I am slowly abandoning the atheist... but the panentheistic self that remains (as described) is very demanding on my hard core logical intellect
 
"...the panentheistic self that remains (as described) is very demanding on my hard core logical intellect."

--> I don't see why a panentheistic self should be demanding on one's hard core logical intellect.
 
mryaso said:
... but the panentheistic self that remains (as described) is very demanding on my hard core logical intellect
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I often think panentheism is just a fudge so people can have the best of both worlds.

Whilst panenthism is acceptable in the sentimental sense, once you start looking at qualities and categories, and approach the Godhead from a metaphysical perspective, there is nothing in creation that can be predicated as being 'divine' according to its own nature.

I think the notion that 'everything is divine' is too often a self-serving egoism. That the Divine is immanently present to all things should not be read, as it so often is, to mean that the Divine is all things.

If anyone can show me anything in nature that is, by its nature, divine, I would be surprised. That would seem to constitute an empirical proof of God ...

As for moksha, nirvana and kaivalya, these are all metaphysical qualifications that I would have thought cannot ultimately be proved?
 
oḿ pūrṇam adaḥ pūrṇam idaḿ pūrṇāt pūrṇam udacyate
pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya pūrṇam evāvaśiṣyate

ॐ पूर्णमदः पूर्णमिदं पूर्णात्पुर्णमुदच्यते
पूर्णश्य पूर्णमादाय पूर्णमेवावशिष्यते ॥
ॐ शान्तिः शान्तिः शान्तिः ॥

That which is perfect and complete arises from perfection and completeness
The perfect and complete yields the perfect and complete
What remains is only perfect and complete

Every atom proves the Godhead, as indeed, no atom could exist without it.
God is transcendent, and this has received due emphasis for thousands of years.

Now, the Immanence of God, which St. Paul called `Christ within us, the Hope of Glory' ... shall be made manifest. This is what the Vaishnavas affirm as Angustha_purusha, presented in the Katha Upanishad thus:
"The purusha, who is of the size of a thumb, resides in the body.
The purusha who is the size of a thumb is a light (jyoti) without smoke."
​
Also from Wiki:
"This "being" dwelling inside the heart has been equated with the ‘jiva’ or the ‘self’ which carries the consciousness and a meta-physical body (prakriti), also termed as the karana sharira. The karana sharira has most transcendental existence and accumulates the experiences of the physical, earthly life. This 'jiva' is a spark of divinity, and its place in the body is the heart region."
​
and:
"The visualizations regarding the size of the 'self' has been of great significance in the Upansihads. The Brhadaranyaka Upanishad in V. 5.6.1 and the Chandogya Upanishad in V.3.14.3 maintain the size of the self to be equalt to a seed. The Shatapata Brahmana, V.10.6.3, mentions that the self:
...in the interior of my heart, is as tiny like a rice or barley or millet seed and golden like a smokeless light (or flame)."
​
Some will recall that Christ Jesus specifically made reference to "Faith the size of a mustard grain" as being all that is required in order to move mountains. This is telling, as I cannot remember the last time I saw ANY PERSON move a mountain.

At any rate ...

From jiva we arrive at jivanmukti, which is one who has attained Moksha, or Nirvana. Nirvana is certainly no place, as it exists within no fewer than seven dimensions, and is thus not only transcendent of ordinary space and time, but also conceptuality and even the realm of Buddhi, or Bodhichitta. It is the plane of ATMA, which is the highest spiritual Principle in Mankind ... Man, whose name we derive from Manas, the principle of Mind in the individual, in contrast with MAHAT [Egyptian Ma'at], which refers to Divine Ideation itself.

The following page (aside from imperfect translation into English) may be helpful in understanding Indian philosophy ...

Samkhya

Moksha and Nirvana mean, respectively, release, freedom, liberation ... and ... that sphere of Divine, conscious activity into which the Spiritual Triad [Atma-Buddhi-Manas] is freed at the end of its long cycle of human peregrinations. It is only accurate to refer to Nirvana as a Void or emptiness if we are contrasting it with all earthly experience [samsara, sangsara], and even with the `Heaven-world' of Devachan which the Soul visits in-between incarnations. Relative to those - even the Devachanic experience - it is true that Nirvanic existence is utterly transcendent. We find the Christ making a reference to Nirvana in the following, familiar words:
"There is a Peace which passeth understanding ... "
​
Here, even the PERFECT Understanding of Buddhi is yielded for the Atman, for Nirvana. Buddhi is that faculty altogether transcendent of Mind as we know it, as the philosopher knows it, and as the theologian knows it. Only the Mystic, and the Occultist [esotericist] ... of whatever tradition, can be said to understand the Bliss of Buddhi, the true Joy and Compassion of Bodhichitta or `Buddha-Mind,' correlate with the Christian Agape.

Tremendous misunderstanding has resulted from early attempts to present the idea of Nirvana to a Western audience unfamiliar with either the experience, or the terminology of Hinduism and Buddhism. It is no small wonder that religionists and savants have utterly failed, even in modern times, to grasp the significance and implications of Nirvana. It doesn't hurt if one has actually experienced the Samadhi/Satori of Nirvana, rather than simply read book after book and article after article ABOUT Nirvana ...

Simply put, a Mukta, or Liberated Jiva, is one who has attained to Nirvana. And keep in mind, every Theosophical Mahatma [Adept] is one who has not only attained, by merit, to the liberation of the Soul, s/he has also pledged to remain in Service to Humanity until freed from that obligation by the Planetary Lord [Himself], acting or expressing via Sanat Kumara [`Siva']. Thus, not all Nirvanees actually enter Nirvana, and by definition a `Nirmanakaya' is "one who ... save men from themselves by being with them, and by continuously instilling thoughts of self-sacrifice, of self-forgetfulness, of spiritual and moral beauty, of mutual help, of compassion, and of pity" (G. de Purucker).

Jesus and Buddha, also Sri Krishna, are all good examples of someone who was essentially born a Nirvanee, or Jivanmukta, having attained to this status in prior incarnations. Technically, Jesus was born a high initiate, as was St. Paul, and both were required to undergo the Renunciation [Crucifixion] experience as part of their development. In one case, death of the physical body resulted (sort of), while in the other, this was not the case (St. Paul makes the statement: "I die daily").

Once the individual undergoes this Renunciation experience, s/he becomes an Arhat, or Paramahamsa [`Great Swan'] as it is known in the East, and the Spiritual Triad incarnates directly... expressing the Divinity of the Monadic Unit [Will, Love-Wisdom, Active Intellect]. At this point, the Agnishvatta or Manasaputra, the `Son of Mind' which esotericists know of as the Soul, has fulfilled its obligation - undertaken from the very first human incarnation, many long lifetimes ago ... for all of us. The `Soul' is thus, freed, and Divinity is then literally, directly manifest for each of us ... for the Monad-in-expression. This is `the Divine Design,' majestic as it is.

In esoteric Buddhism, the Spiritual Triad [Atma-Buddhi-Manas] is the reincarnating Ego, or Soul, which appears in each new birth with the skandhas, or `bundle of attributes' that make up the personality. A way to see this is suggested by Shakespeare's well-known lines:
"All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players.
They have their exits and their entrances,
And one man in his time plays many parts ..." [As You Like It]
​
The Soul is the player, and we are but the character playing this particular part. We do indeed have our entrances, and also - as sure as the S*N - we will have our exit. This is the Universal LAW, and even Deity incarnate observes it, for without such willing submission, there would be no Cosmos. The Law of Sacrifice applies, as Above, so Below. Every esotericist learns this, as s/he also learns to perfect the other Aspects of the Soul, leading - eventually and inevitably, for us ALL, to Jivanmukti, or Moksha.

It is vital to understand that neither Nirvana, nor various of the other exalted spiritual states, actually requires that the person die, or enter into a permanent Nirvana, from which no further incarnation is possible. There is much confusion over such subjects, yet it is always wisest to learn directly from sources who have themselves undergone these experiences, rather than from speculations of those who have not ... or who cannot really grasp the Principles and concepts involved.

If one wishes to emphasize the transcendent God Whom and which remains altogether beyond God's Creation, it is useful to quote Sri Krishna, saying thus in the Bhagavad Gita:
"Having pervaded this whole universe with a fragment of Myself,
I remain." (emphasis added)​
In short, this means that God does not cease to be transcendent, or the Godhead, simply because God is also incarnate in, and even AS, the world (whatever world, whichever plane, arupa and rupa, all Seven systemic planes, or even all Seven of the Cosmic Planes). This idea was emphasized, or rather, its misunderstanding lampooned, by Kevin Smith in his movie Dogma, wherein God gets in trouble in the beginning by getting beat up by some hockey players (demons, in disguise) ... and thus, put in the hospital, jeopardizing all of existence. pshaw! :p
 
No one can be born a 'nirvanee' (Hindu mythology says only Shukadeva, the son of Veda Vyasa, was so born :)). People learn and then become realized. Even Jesus studied (Did not he kill a fellow-student just by looking at him and the boy dropped dead?) and so did Rama, Krishna, and Buddha. (Nice long post, Taijasi. :)
 
Aupmanyav,

I would have to say that - while exoteric presentations may hold that Nirvana, by definition, means `gone' [Tathagata, for example] - an esoteric interpretation is that sometimes a Jivanmukta does indeed return. The exceptions are Bodhisattvas and Buddhas, and the class of beings called Nirmanakayas.

My understanding of this is necessary limited, as I think would also apply to everyone who posts here. However, my best guess is that once [a person becomes (a)] Buddha, the remaining possibilities are extremely limited. Even the Asekha Adept is supposedly not born through normal means. And it was Shakyamuni Himself, the most recent Buddha, who appeared as Padmasambhava the Lotus-born. When asked, "Where did you come from?" or "How did you come to us?" the reply was: "I simply appeared." Thus, it is through Kriyashakti that the Adept makes his vehicle, and not via the ordinary processes of human birth (as there is no further karma to exhaust, and no requirement under the Law to enter the world as mortals do).

Even the word kumara means `mortal-with-difficulty,' and in one place in Vol. 3 of The Secret Doctrine we are told that one of the four, or five, or seven Kumaras has indeed taken mortal appearance upon our planet, after the Buddhahood (and Nirvana) of Shakyamuni ... ironically to help offset (the understandable) error which this Buddha may have set in motion. The error involves, ironically (and again, in ways which I don't think we can yet grasp), too great a Love, too great a Compassion for the struggling Sons of Men [Manasaputras, Ashnishvattas] ... by releasing too much of the occult-esoteric doctrine, which even the Buddha's Arhats could not properly employ for Liberation.

From the same occult source (Vol. 3 of the SD), we find Blavatsky suggesting that Shakyamuni "occupied the body" of Jey Rimpoche [Tsongkapa, `Onion-Man' of Tibet] from time to time. The conclusion made by most esotericists, including HPB herself if I am not mistaken, is that Tsongkapa has thereby - as well as through his own merits - become an Adept himself, although I do not hold to this view, nor to the view that HPB is yet an Arhat or Adept. This is incidental, but what is important is that IF the Buddha [Shakyamuni] did appear via Tsongkapa, it seems clear that what he did was to overshadow him, rather than INCARNATE as Tsongkapa. There is a big difference, even though for one such as the Buddha, what sacrifice is entailed - amounts to the same [as taking a voluntary rebirth].

This is very much the process as applied to Maitreya Buddha, currently Maitreya Bodhisattva, known to Christians 2100 years ago as the Christ, and in a former incarnation as Sri Krishna. Here, as you would almost certainly agree, Aupmanyav, I am stating an esoteric - rather than a traditional, conventional, or widespread exoteric view (of Hinduism or Buddhism, except perhaps the esoteric portions thereof). Nevertheless, I haven't the faintest, slightest, shadow of a hint of a fart of a doubt, that it was the same Soul, appearing - most likely in a true incarnation as Sri Krishna, then later as Jesus in Palestine, but only via overshadowing, which means that we are dealing with two Souls in the case of Jesus of Nazareth ... and the world at large, of exoteric religion, is not quite ready for the full story.

Later, approaching the year 1925, Jiddu Krishnamurti again served as a vehicle for the Christ - this same Soul that was Sri Krishna and also overshadowed the Galilean Adept ... but the experiment did not prove fully successful, and Krishnaji himself repudiated the event, disbanded the Order of the Star, and even declared that `Truth is a Pathless Land,' meaning that one needs no Master or Guru in order to attain to Enlightenment [Moksha, Liberation, Salvation, etc.]. With this I must disagree, based both on personal experience, insight, corroboration from other sources, and common sense. Krishnamurti did attain to arhatship ... but along the Deva line, which means that he himself made it impossible to further serve as the medium of the World Teacher, and this is also confirmed by many sources - both Theosophical and otherwise.

The real point, however, is that we have many instances of overshadowing. Another noteworthy example is the Master Jesus, after his incarnation as Apollonius of Tyana, taking the student Mohammed, and overshadowing him in precisely the same manner as he himself was earlier the vehicle for the Christ. We are dealing with energies that make this possible, wise and profitable for all the world of men, of incarnating Jivas. In the case of Jesus and Mohammed, both are, or were, on the 6th Ray. In the case of the Christ, it is the 2nd Ray, which is mirrored by and into the 6th, such that Jesus [formerly Joshua, High Priest, formerly Joshua, Son of Nun] become the natural, perfect vehicle (this having certainly been arranged from the world of the Soul, prior to his incarnation). Later, the Buddha, another 2nd Ray Soul, overshadowed the 2nd Ray Initiate Tsongkapa. It is no surprise that what we often see happening here is the 2nd Ray involvement of another, fellow 2nd Ray Soul ... or, in the case of Jesus, a similarly appropriate 6th Ray Soul, as the Era of Pisces began astrologically in 255BC, Jesus himself [the Teacher of Righteousness] being born in 105BC, 150 full years into Pisces.

Of note is that Pisces is ruled by Neptune astrologically, and this is the 6th Ray Sacred Planet, Eloha, or Prajapati - as the Hindus would term it in Sanskrit. Currently, as most folks realize, we are already in the Era of Aquarius, this having begun in the year 1900AD astrologically, bringing 7th Ray Uranian energy into manifestation, producing Group Consciousness, and inaugurating an age of Group Initiation ... in which the Guru-Shishya relationship of long-standing tradition will be - not so much altogether replaced, immediately, but rather gradually superseded by Initiation in group format.
 
Further thoughts, as a follow-up ...

Meanwhile, the World Teacher appears to the world in three ways which the person of spiritual inclination (although not necessarily of a religious mindset) is likely to recognize. The quotation that follows is excerpted from Alice Bailey's Externalization of the Hierarchy, from May of 1947. This is an update of the Tibetan Teacher's earlier message, in which Alice herself wrote down that the Christ would likely not appear before Humanity by means of an incarnation - or overshadowing - on the physical plane. It was simply not part of the Hierarchy's intention, or plans, owing to Humanity's karma ... until the Decision of the Christ himself [Kalki Avatara, the World Teacher and Bodhisattva] in 1942, to come to us again in this manner.
"Many years ago I indicated that the Christ would come in three ways, or rather, that the fact of His Presence could be proved in three distinctive phases.​

​
I said then that the first move which the Hierarchy would make would be the stimulation of the spiritual consciousness in man, the evocation of humanity's spiritual demands on a large scale, and the nurturing—on a worldwide scale—of the Christ consciousness in the human heart. This has already been done, and with most effective results. Of the factual nature of this process the vociferous demands of men of goodwill, of welfare workers and of those pledged to international cooperation, to the relief of world distress and to the establishment of right human relations are the undeniable expression. That phase of the preparatory work which is indicative of His coming has now reached a stage where nothing can arrest its progress or slow down its momentum. In spite of appearances, this uprising of the Christ-consciousness has been successful, and what may appear as reverse activity is of no importance in the long run, and only of a temporary nature.​
​
The second move of the Hierarchy, I told you, would be the impressing of the minds of enlightened men everywhere by spiritual ideas embodying the new truths, by the "descent" (if I may so call it) of the new concepts which will govern human living, and by the over-shadowing of all world disciples and the New Group of World Servers by the Christ Himself. You will recall how, in the Bible story, Christ symbolically evoked the recognition of John the Baptist and imparted the things of the Kingdom of God to the disciples who walked to Emmaus, though they recognised not their Companion. This planned move of the Hierarchy is also progressing well; men and women everywhere and in every department of life are enunciating those new truths which should in the future guide human living; they are building those new organisations, movements and groups—large or small—which will familiarize the mass of men with the reality of the need and the mode of meeting it. This they are doing because they are driven thereto by the warmth of their hearts and their loving response to human distress; without formulating it thus to themselves, they are nevertheless working to bring into visibility the Kingdom of God on earth. No denial of these facts is possible, in view of the multiplicity of this type of organizations, books and speeches.​
Thirdly, I told you that Christ might come in person and walk among men as He did before. This has not yet taken place, but plans are being laid which will enable Him to do so. Those plans do not involve the birth of some nice child in some nice home on earth; they will not produce the wild claims and the credulous recognition of the well-meaning and the unintelligent, as is so frequently the case today, nor will someone appear and say: This is the Christ. He is here or He is there. I would point out to you, however, that the widespread appearance of such tales and claims, though undesirable, misleading and wrong, nevertheless demonstrates human expectancy of the imminence of His coming. Belief in His coming is basic in the human consciousness. How He will come, in what manner, I may not and should not say. The exact moment has not yet arrived, nor has the method of His appearance been determined. The factual nature of the two earlier and preparatory moves, already made by the Hierarchy under His direction, are the guarantee that He will come and that—when He does—mankind will be ready."​
​
For at least two or three reasons, I am not seeking to stress that any of the above is the correct interpretation of events, or that it is the clarification on Moksha and Nirvana which we should necessarily take away. Rather, I offer it only as a possibility, since it all fits my findings, and rings true with what I have experienced and confirmed with others ... of esoteric background.

One reason I am not interested in a heated discussion is that it's just not worth it. Either what is shared makes sense, is helpful, and CAN be corroborated and confirmed by one's own insight, experience and testing. Or otherwise, it merely points out that there are other interpretations of the exoteric accounts, and goes no further. This is true whether we are dealing with Hinduism or Buddhism, Christianity or Judaism, Islam or the Pagan/Wiccan religions, or even of modern disciplines such as science and philosophy, psychology, etc.

Another reason it's not worth getting too concerned about differences, is that this is the exoteric forum on Eastern religions and philosophies. If this were a post or a thread on the esoteric forum, I might be more inclined to discuss or suggest a dozen additional sources and types of confirmation. Instead, I simply wish to show that not everyone holds to the conventional views regarding the Christ, Sri Krishna, Jesus and Buddha, Mahatmas, Adepts, Arhats and Rishis ... Initiates and Initiation, incarnation, etc.

And finally, none of us can really PROVE to, for and of ourselves that Nirvanees cannot further incarnate ... *until* we ourselves have reached this future attainment and degree of evolution. This I would conservatively place a good handful of lifetimes ahead, for everyone here ... noting that such advanced souls as H.P. Blavatsky herself stated plainly that she did not expect to become an Adept for several more lifetimes, while even the Mahatma KH made clear in the Mahatma Letters [to A.P. Sinnett] that "he was unhappily not [yet the highest Adept which it is possible for us to become]." Later, in Theosophical teachings, we find that this Mahatma did indeed attain to a higher `post,' which I would reasonably speculate to be that of Chohan (6th Degree Initiate) ... keeping in mind that a Bodhisattva, World Teacher, or `Christ' is of the 7th Degree, and a Full Buddha the 8th.

The Tibetan Master who worked with Alice Bailey was observed, firsthand, in his youth by HPB when she visited Tibet the first time ... and this Master states clearly on multiple occasions that he became Asekha Adept [5th Degree] in 1875 - quite a few years later. At that time, any human Jiva seeking `graduation' or Liberation from our planet's rounds of rebirth would have had to attain to the 5th degree ... which state of affairs has supposedly applied since the days of Atlantis, a million or so years ago. However, coincident with changes that occurred during the early part or half of the 20th century, the requirements for Liberation have been stepped up, as does occasionally occur, and now we will need to reach the 6th degree of Initiation in order to enter the `Way of Higher Evolution' [MahaParaNirvana, along one of seven, or perhaps more Paths]. This is a further reason why I truly do not believe that either HPB, nor Tsongkapa, nor most of the figures we read about as students during the days of Theosophy, the Arya Samaj, etc., have attained to true Adeptship. Granted, some of the Theosophists, both from way back then and also nowadays, would have you believe otherwise (even writing extensively about so-and-so being "approved for arhatship," etc.) ... but my insight & intuition tells me that there is much glamour in such accounts - meaning it is mostly bunk.

One last link I would share, is that of the Tibetan Teacher writing via Alice Bailey, regarding Avatars. The link is from the 1300-page Treatise on Cosmic Fire, which was provided as the psychological key to The Secret Doctrine, being this same Master's earlier work (with assistance), written down by H.P. Blavatsky. The section is on thought elementals and fire elementals, and is entitled, (d.) Avatars, Their Nature and Their Work. Five types of avatars are listed, being: Cosmic Avatars, Solar Avatars, Interplanetary Avatars, Planetary Avatars and Human Avatars. This may have direct relevance for those interested in further pursuing the question of Moksha, Nirvana, and special states of evolution for one type of being after reaching the goals which apply to ALL MEN.

(Amen &) ~

Namaskar

~*~
 
:) Taijasi, I am not at all into esoterics and mysticism. I consider Blavatsky to be a fake, and find no value in Aurobindo, UG, or Jiddu. Hindus consider eras by Nakshatras (Asterism) and not by Zodiac. I am a strong atheist. I do not believe in re-birth. Tibetan buddhism is full of superstitions. First thing your post was too long and it hardly had anything to hold my interest. I like posts up to five lines with the meaning given clearly. Naturally, I could not make head and tails of your two posts above.
 
Energy is energy. What is divine - nice, good, beneficial, etc. In that case energy is devilish too. Look at how it rakes up typhoons and shakes the earth.
 
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