lunamoth
Episcopalian
miclason said:
I think you make a very good point.
peace,
lunamoth
shaking womens hands
- Thread starter BlaznFattyz
- Start date
I think you make a very good point.
peace,
lunamoth
The question was phrased and asked for the person who made the comment. I wouldnt have asked you that question. And, the fact that you cant understand it, doesnt make it wrong. You'll probably have to think out of the box.Awaiting_the_fifth said:
First, your insinuation that an educated/learned person wouldnt consider this something immoral is not taken lightly.
Second, your statement indicates that you think that Islamic Law is not practical and is just about restrictions for the sake of restrictions.
This is nothing but your own shortsightedness.
Besides, you should be here to learn, not to mock Muslims and thier teachings/injunctions.
Excellent. You have understood the matter by thinking about the other side. The fact is that the Minister was ignorant about Muslim ways; something that obviously should be corrected to avoid such incidences. And I agree with you that this is not an issue that should be big news. I suspect that the fact that Muslims were involved might have played a role in this regard.miclason said:
Awaiting_the_fifth
Where is my mind?
thipps said:
You misunderstand me, there was no sarcasm intended in my statement.
The gesture was made in a country where it is considered to be an insult to refuse to shake someone's hand. If this was a western representative in a muslim country I would agree with you, but these are muslim representatives in a western country and as such they must be prepared to make allowances for western culture.
miclason
miclason
...hmmm...you are talking about culture, but, for these muslim men it is not a matter of culture, but rather a matter or religion...I wouldn't want to do something that goes against my religious belief, nor would I feel comfortable making someone else go against his/her religious beliefs...cultural patterns are one thing, and one must make allowances for that, granted, but when something goes against your religion, it's different...
T
Tao_Equus
Guest
thipps said:
The trouble with your above statement is that you have provided no explanation as to why a simple common everyday thing to us 'westerners', as you earlier referred to us, as a handshake is imoral. The one reference I did see said 'to touch' a woman. This is very ambiguous and could be interpreted in any number of ways. And I am here to learn more about muslims but that does not mean that I am here to blindly accept every muslim's views or interpretations. It seems to me that you personaly have done little but insult the intelligence and the integrity of all the non-muslims that have come here in the hope of better understanding. You even gloated at getting one poster banned. You are a poor ambasador for your faith.
No, Tao_Equus - you misunderstand the situation and the arguements raised in this thread.
There is a specific proscription within Islam that explicitly prohibits touching women who are strangers. Therefore there is a will to observe this within Islam.
Of course, non-Muslims cannot be expected to blindly follow Muslim belief, but we should respect their views where possible.
Please also note that thipps is the moderators for the Islam section, not least because of his patient and friendly manner he normally addresses issues raised in this forum.
Also please note that the member who was banned made a concerted attempt to attack Muslim members here, and additionally used multiple aliases to try and do this when proceeding ones were banned. The member in question is now blocked across multiple IP ranges.
There is a specific proscription within Islam that explicitly prohibits touching women who are strangers. Therefore there is a will to observe this within Islam.
Of course, non-Muslims cannot be expected to blindly follow Muslim belief, but we should respect their views where possible.
Please also note that thipps is the moderators for the Islam section, not least because of his patient and friendly manner he normally addresses issues raised in this forum.
Also please note that the member who was banned made a concerted attempt to attack Muslim members here, and additionally used multiple aliases to try and do this when proceeding ones were banned. The member in question is now blocked across multiple IP ranges.
T
Tao_Equus
Guest
Sorry Brian, I read back through the thread in its enirety, as I had the first time.....and I stand by what I said above in relation to Thipps' insults. I will at some point get round to reading further threads and hope that what I have seen here was an abberation.
If you believe that thipps was insulting on this thread then that is your perogative to hold that opinion - however, please note that as a moderated community, it is generally unacceptable to start public discussions complaining about staff actions.
If *anybody* has any complaints about board staff - even myself - then please do feel free to raise them - in private. I have certainly dismissed and even banned moderators on other forums I admin, because of inappropriate activities, and will take any complaints seriously.
It is worth pointing out that this board is primarily for the discussion of Islam, and as there are issues touched upon in this thread which relate to various different threads here.
This thread itself is about the shaking of hands as a western custom being applied to the Muslim world, and I really wouldn't encourage this thread to be used for any purpose other than that.
If any person has any criticisms of how thipps has handled this thread then you are welcome to PM himself or myself with your personal suggestions.
If *anybody* has any complaints about board staff - even myself - then please do feel free to raise them - in private. I have certainly dismissed and even banned moderators on other forums I admin, because of inappropriate activities, and will take any complaints seriously.
It is worth pointing out that this board is primarily for the discussion of Islam, and as there are issues touched upon in this thread which relate to various different threads here.
This thread itself is about the shaking of hands as a western custom being applied to the Muslim world, and I really wouldn't encourage this thread to be used for any purpose other than that.
If any person has any criticisms of how thipps has handled this thread then you are welcome to PM himself or myself with your personal suggestions.
There is a difference of opinion among muslims as to whether shaking the hands of the opposite member is allowed or not. However since belief is a personal matter it is up to each individual what they believe in and what restrictions they observe.
I have found that the Danes seem to be deliberately confrontational with muslims. If a person's religion forbids him to shake hands with a Woman than that restriction should be respected.
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503546332
I have found that the Danes seem to be deliberately confrontational with muslims. If a person's religion forbids him to shake hands with a Woman than that restriction should be respected.
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503546332
BlaznFattyz
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 1,589
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 36
bloodnf said:
that was kind of the question, which is, is shaking hands a personal and religious belief, or is it an actual religious belief? i think you said two conflicting things in your post, you said it is a personal matter of belief, then you said it was religion that may forbid them? could it be that personal and cultural beliefs have swayed scripture, if any, that pertains to this matter into something its really not? just shaking hands can be for business and political reasons, can it not? it doesnt mean you are going to marry or have thoughts of marrying hillary clinton or whoever has their hand out, does it? are not women equal to strike deals and shake on it?
In light of the evidence presented by another poster, i find that very difficult to believe. I would be interested in knowing on what basis does this difference occur.bloodnf said:
No doubt true that it is upto people to observe a restriction or not, but this does not decide what is the truth of the matter in Islam.
The link didnt work. Could you please check it?
Yaqinud Din
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 80
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 0
All four sunni Madhhabs agree that it is Haraam
BlaznFattyz said:
I meant that religion and religious proscriptions are a matter of personal belief. If a person believes thtat their religion prohibits shaking hands with the member of the opposite sex, what gives anyone else the right to force the person to compromise his beliefs?
thipps said:
I checked Islam Online on this matter and found the following which I felt was a good summation.
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503546332
Stupid question here: how would I, as a female, acknowledge a Muslim male without creating a situation of "haraam"? Is bowing (such as is practiced in Japan) acceptable? Is there a special "rite" that is practiced? I have quite a few instances where I have to interact with Muslim men (including my primary care doctor) and I don't want to cause undue tensions.
Sorry for my stupid question.
Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine
Sorry for my stupid question.
Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine
T
Tao_Equus
Guest
bloodnf said:
Thank you for the link. It seems there is nothing to stop a handshake as long as there is no desire or fear of desire. Glad thats cleared up
Tao_Equus said:Thank you for the link. It seems there is nothing to stop a handshake as long as there is no desire or fear of desire. Glad thats cleared up
I have been going through this conversation and found some heated discussion and strict environment.However i am happy this discussion is going to end well and islamonline.net has cleared so many misconceptions I had about islam.Whoever posted that link was indeed a peace maker.
p.ali
No bowing Phyllis. Dont offer your hand. Just say hello. Give a slight nod of the head even if you like.Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine said:Stupid question here: how would I, as a female, acknowledge a Muslim male without creating a situation of "haraam"? Is bowing (such as is practiced in Japan) acceptable? Is there a special "rite" that is practiced? I have quite a few instances where I have to interact with Muslim men (including my primary care doctor) and I don't want to cause undue tensions.
Sorry for my stupid question.
Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine
The question isnt stupid.
Yaqinud Din
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 80
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 0
Lets take a look at the 4 Madhhabs
The Hanafi madhhab:
The Hanafi madhhab:
Ibn Nujaym said:
It is not permissible for a man to touch a woman’s face or hands even if there is no risk of desire because it is haraam in principle and there is no necessity that would allow it.
Al-Bahr al-Raa’iq, 8/219
The Maaliki madhhab:
Muhammad ibn Ahmad (‘Ulaysh) said:
It is not permissible for a man to touch the face or hand of a non-mahram woman, and it is not permissible for him to put his hand on hers without a barrier. ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) said: “The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) never accepted a woman’s oath of allegiance by shaking hands with her; rather he (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) used to accept their oath of allegiance by words only.” According to another report, “His hand never touched the hand of a woman, rather he would accept their oath of allegiance by words only.”
(Manh al-Jaleel Sharh Mukhtasar Khaleel, 1/223)
The Shaafa’i madhhab:
Al-Nawawi said:
It is not permissible to touch a woman in any way.
Al-Majmoo’, 4/515.
It is not permissible for a man to touch a woman’s face or hands even if there is no risk of desire because it is haraam in principle and there is no necessity that would allow it.
Al-Bahr al-Raa’iq, 8/219
The Maaliki madhhab:
Muhammad ibn Ahmad (‘Ulaysh) said:
It is not permissible for a man to touch the face or hand of a non-mahram woman, and it is not permissible for him to put his hand on hers without a barrier. ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) said: “The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) never accepted a woman’s oath of allegiance by shaking hands with her; rather he (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) used to accept their oath of allegiance by words only.” According to another report, “His hand never touched the hand of a woman, rather he would accept their oath of allegiance by words only.”
(Manh al-Jaleel Sharh Mukhtasar Khaleel, 1/223)
The Shaafa’i madhhab:
Al-Nawawi said:
It is not permissible to touch a woman in any way.
Al-Majmoo’, 4/515.
Wali al-Deen al-‘Iraaqi said:
This indicates that the hand of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) did not touch the hand of any woman apart from his wives and concubines, whether in the case of accepting the oath of allegiance or in other cases. If he did not do that despite the fact that he was infallible and beyond suspicion, then it is even more essential that others heed this prohibition. It appears from the texts that he refrained from doing that because it was haraam for him to do so. The fuqaha’ among our companions and others said that it is haraam to touch a non-mahram woman even if that is not touching parts of her body that are not ‘awrah, such as her face. But they differed with regard to looking when there is no desire and no fear of fitnah. The prohibition on touching is stronger than the prohibition on looking, and it is haraam when there is no necessity that would allow it. If it is the case of necessity, e.g. medical treatment, removing a tooth or treating the eyes, etc., if there is no woman who can do that, then it is permissible for a non-mahram to do that because it is the case of necessity.
Tarh al-Tathreeb, 7/45, 46
This indicates that the hand of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) did not touch the hand of any woman apart from his wives and concubines, whether in the case of accepting the oath of allegiance or in other cases. If he did not do that despite the fact that he was infallible and beyond suspicion, then it is even more essential that others heed this prohibition. It appears from the texts that he refrained from doing that because it was haraam for him to do so. The fuqaha’ among our companions and others said that it is haraam to touch a non-mahram woman even if that is not touching parts of her body that are not ‘awrah, such as her face. But they differed with regard to looking when there is no desire and no fear of fitnah. The prohibition on touching is stronger than the prohibition on looking, and it is haraam when there is no necessity that would allow it. If it is the case of necessity, e.g. medical treatment, removing a tooth or treating the eyes, etc., if there is no woman who can do that, then it is permissible for a non-mahram to do that because it is the case of necessity.
Tarh al-Tathreeb, 7/45, 46
The Hanbali madhhab
Ibn Muflih said:
Abu ‘Abd-Allaah – i.e., Imam Ahmad – was asked about a man who shakes hands with a woman. He said, No, and was emphatic that it is haraam. I said, Should he shake hands with her from beneath his garment? He said, No.
Shaykh Taqiy al-Deen also favoured the view that it is prohibited, and gave the reason that touching is more serious than looking.
AlAdaab al-Shar’iyyah, 2/257
Ibn Muflih said:
Abu ‘Abd-Allaah – i.e., Imam Ahmad – was asked about a man who shakes hands with a woman. He said, No, and was emphatic that it is haraam. I said, Should he shake hands with her from beneath his garment? He said, No.
Shaykh Taqiy al-Deen also favoured the view that it is prohibited, and gave the reason that touching is more serious than looking.
AlAdaab al-Shar’iyyah, 2/257