The Greeks wrote the bible
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thanks for your replys.
Juantoo3
You are quite right...The Greeks did not write the NT... It was written by the Greek speaking Jews.
I look back at my first answer and wonder how on earth I put "The Greeks wrote the NT in koine Greek".
Greek was a common language at the time of Christ. There also would have been Romans conversing in Latin, and other peoples speaking in Aramaic. Possibly a mixture of various languages.
Aramaic has a close relationship (cognate) with Hebrew. It might have derived from Hebrew. Its also known that Hebrew (A late version, possibly an Aramaized version,) was still in use with Jewish officials. But ..Doh! me... The Greeks didn't write the NT.
Regarding one of your earlier threads on the evolution / creation debate, you questioned about trying to source the root for oriental languages back to the central point in Mesopotamia, to link it with an original language. I read some of the 'origin of language' discussion, as you suggested, but ran out of time, and I failed to answer for the same reason. Its more indepth, more appropriate to discuss on the Babel thread....But, briefly, the scriptures do not say that all languages originated from one language, but possibly upwards to seventy languages that were the 'God confused' stem languages from Babel. There was one original pre-Babel language, which possibly survived. From this, its reasoned that the number of original 'Babel' languages is said to go in line with the 70 post flood families originating from the 16 grandsons of Noah. Ancient place names and some languages can be traced back to a number of the names of the grandsons of Noah.
The oriental language link to Mesopotamia is intrinsic of the ancient Chinese characters. A link to the Babel area is found more so from 'within'... Within the original written Chinese language, rather than by other means. The original individual Chinese characters and radicals are illustrative of events in Genesis and the traditions that the ancient peoples of the middle east practiced. Pre flood and post flood. One well known set of three radicals are those found in the Chinese character for the word ship. There are plenty more.
...And thank you Bandit for your kind comments. Also I came across your name in another inter religious forum, (Small world) where you and 17th Angel were defending Jehovahs witnesses. Always getting 'ethereally spat upon' so grateful for your back up.
You are quite right...The Greeks did not write the NT... It was written by the Greek speaking Jews.
I look back at my first answer and wonder how on earth I put "The Greeks wrote the NT in koine Greek".
Greek was a common language at the time of Christ. There also would have been Romans conversing in Latin, and other peoples speaking in Aramaic. Possibly a mixture of various languages.
Aramaic has a close relationship (cognate) with Hebrew. It might have derived from Hebrew. Its also known that Hebrew (A late version, possibly an Aramaized version,) was still in use with Jewish officials. But ..Doh! me... The Greeks didn't write the NT.
Regarding one of your earlier threads on the evolution / creation debate, you questioned about trying to source the root for oriental languages back to the central point in Mesopotamia, to link it with an original language. I read some of the 'origin of language' discussion, as you suggested, but ran out of time, and I failed to answer for the same reason. Its more indepth, more appropriate to discuss on the Babel thread....But, briefly, the scriptures do not say that all languages originated from one language, but possibly upwards to seventy languages that were the 'God confused' stem languages from Babel. There was one original pre-Babel language, which possibly survived. From this, its reasoned that the number of original 'Babel' languages is said to go in line with the 70 post flood families originating from the 16 grandsons of Noah. Ancient place names and some languages can be traced back to a number of the names of the grandsons of Noah.
The oriental language link to Mesopotamia is intrinsic of the ancient Chinese characters. A link to the Babel area is found more so from 'within'... Within the original written Chinese language, rather than by other means. The original individual Chinese characters and radicals are illustrative of events in Genesis and the traditions that the ancient peoples of the middle east practiced. Pre flood and post flood. One well known set of three radicals are those found in the Chinese character for the word ship. There are plenty more.
...And thank you Bandit for your kind comments. Also I came across your name in another inter religious forum, (Small world) where you and 17th Angel were defending Jehovahs witnesses. Always getting 'ethereally spat upon' so grateful for your back up.
B
Bandit
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E99 said:
no problem. i think i have defended just about every religion out there today at one point or another. especially when the hell spitting & too much judging starts.
i guess that is what makes a non-dom Christian, special.
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
Kindest Regards, E99!
Thank you for the reply!
It would be interesting to hear your thoughts on the matter in the other thread, so we do not derail this one and can jump start that one. Thanks.
Thank you for the reply!
Again, speaking as a student and not a scholar, it is my understanding that Aramaic is the colloquial tongue of the "common" people, whereas formal Hebrew would have been used by scholars and administration type people (clerics, politicians, lawyers, etc). I am open to correction.E99 said:
I agree this would be better suited to the other thread, and would make a very welcome addition. In what I did look into, I found a few curiousities, some of which I think I mentioned there. Of course, if what you are saying here holds water by translation, then it would further support my understanding that the flood of Noah was not world wide and all encompassing, that there likely were isolated pockets of civilization that remained outside of the flood zone. Which, incidentally, seems to also be in agreement with some of the geological evidences I have seen presented by people like Glen Morton.
I am not 100% certain I am following you on this, you may have to spell this one out a little better for me. I have a vague understanding of Chinese ideogram construction. I also understand through some scholarly materials I have read that China and the East have some (seems to be few, at least at this point) rudimentary similarities with the Mesopotamian cultures. Whether these things were gained through commerce and trade, as I suspect, or through geneology and family ties, or even both, is to my knowledge a wide open question among scholarship.
It would be interesting to hear your thoughts on the matter in the other thread, so we do not derail this one and can jump start that one. Thanks.
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
Nah Bandit, it's what makes YOU special!Bandit said:no problem. i think i have defended just about every religion out there today at one point or another. especially when the hell spitting & too much judging starts.
i guess that is what makes a non-dom Christian, special.
bob x
Well-Known Member
This is an "urban legend", invented in the 19th century. There are no earlier references to any gate being called a "needle's eye".
An alternate explanation of "camel through the needle's eye" is that there was a mistranslation into Greek from a Semitic original (whether Hebrew or Aramaic is not important here) of cable into camel (our words "cable" and "camel" are ultimately from the Semitic, and the similarity which we can still see is stronger in the original words).
bob x said:
Says who...You? LOL This is this truth. The needle is a small door way. There is secular history up unto the 19th century that describes the Needle.
It is in the Bible which is over 2000 years old, so your urban legend, is older than you think, by about 1900 years.
I guess you got your information from alli baba and the 40 thieves. (hence your belief that it is all fiction...)
We know this for fact, and there are still needle doorways in the 21st century, in the middle east, still in existence.
Urban legend....True.
v/r
Q
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
Kindest Regards, all!
Bypassing the "urban legend" part, I have heard of the point bob was making regarding the comparison between camel and "rope." This is highlighted in my copy of the Peshitta. In effect, by this translation, "it is easier to thread a rope through the eye of a needle..." There is no overwhelming change in the lesson to be learned.
Either way, gate or rope, it makes the burden of the rich man pretty great. Which, in my opinion, is a no brainer and pretty obvious. The more we have, the more we fear to lose, and the more we will bend rules in order to keep that we seem to have.
The Lord giveth, and the Lord taketh, blessed be the name of the Lord!
My two cents.
Bypassing the "urban legend" part, I have heard of the point bob was making regarding the comparison between camel and "rope." This is highlighted in my copy of the Peshitta. In effect, by this translation, "it is easier to thread a rope through the eye of a needle..." There is no overwhelming change in the lesson to be learned.
Either way, gate or rope, it makes the burden of the rich man pretty great. Which, in my opinion, is a no brainer and pretty obvious. The more we have, the more we fear to lose, and the more we will bend rules in order to keep that we seem to have.
The Lord giveth, and the Lord taketh, blessed be the name of the Lord!
My two cents.
BobX
Your quote:
This is an "urban legend", invented in the 19th century. There are no earlier references to any gate being called a "needle's eye".
An alternate explanation of "camel through the needle's eye" is that there was a mistranslation into Greek from a Semitic original (whether Hebrew or Aramaic is not important here) of cable into camel (our words "cable" and "camel" are ultimately from the Semitic, and the similarity which we can still see is stronger in the original words).
Could it be a speciel evolutionary transformation from cable to camel ! It is true that the 'eye of the needle' gate is a fable, as much as stretching the imagination in believing that melanogaster ( genus drosophila ) the fruit flies new 'mutated species' the ferment fly has made a marked evolutionary transition from one kind to another. And as for abiogenesis... inanimate molecules generating extreme complex animated life by chance.....evolutions invisible foundation......well urban legend comes to mind.
"Camel" should not be rendered as rope or cable.
The Greek word for rope is ka´mi·los and the Greek word for camel is ka´me·los.
There was possibly a phonetic confusion of these two Greek words. To add to the confusion the Aramaic word 'gamla' means rope and camel." .......However, the Greek-English Lexicon (by Liddell and Scott) renders ka´mi·los as "rope" but states that it is possibly an emendation of the phrase, "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God," thus indicating that ka´me·los, (camel) rather than ka´mi·los, (rope) appeared in the original Greek text. Furthermore.......
The oldest extant Greek manuscripts of the Gospel of Matthew (the Sinaitic, the Vatican No. 1209, and the Alexandrine), uses the word ka´me·los (camel.) In line with this, Matthew wrote this account first in Hebrew and then may have translated it himself into Greek. He knew what Jesus meant. Matthew knew the proper word that was used.
"It is easier for a camel to get through a needle’s eye than for a rich man to get into the kingdom of God." (Mt 19:24; Mr 10:25) .....
The needle’s eye to be a small gate ?
The important thing to note is the original term used...The Greek word for "needle" found at Matthew 19:24 and Mark 10:25 is ' rha·phis,' a verb that has a meaning " to sew." Also, the Greek word appearing in the parallel passage of Luke 18:25 is ' be·lo´ne.' This word is used to refer to a literal surgical needle.
It seems to be clear that the words camel and needle are the correct words to use.
The illustration Jesus used expressed how difficult it would be for rich men not simply to begin serving God but actually to enter into the Kingdom.-1Ti 6:17-19; Lu 13:24.
It illustrates that it was even less possible for a rich man, clinging to his riches, to enter into kingdom of heaven. Rope, cable or camel, as Juantoo rightfully says neither can pass through the eye of a needle and those that put wordly possessions and affairs before Jehovah God have got to pass through that needles eye.
Your quote:
This is an "urban legend", invented in the 19th century. There are no earlier references to any gate being called a "needle's eye".
An alternate explanation of "camel through the needle's eye" is that there was a mistranslation into Greek from a Semitic original (whether Hebrew or Aramaic is not important here) of cable into camel (our words "cable" and "camel" are ultimately from the Semitic, and the similarity which we can still see is stronger in the original words).
Could it be a speciel evolutionary transformation from cable to camel ! It is true that the 'eye of the needle' gate is a fable, as much as stretching the imagination in believing that melanogaster ( genus drosophila ) the fruit flies new 'mutated species' the ferment fly has made a marked evolutionary transition from one kind to another. And as for abiogenesis... inanimate molecules generating extreme complex animated life by chance.....evolutions invisible foundation......well urban legend comes to mind.
"Camel" should not be rendered as rope or cable.
The Greek word for rope is ka´mi·los and the Greek word for camel is ka´me·los.
There was possibly a phonetic confusion of these two Greek words. To add to the confusion the Aramaic word 'gamla' means rope and camel." .......However, the Greek-English Lexicon (by Liddell and Scott) renders ka´mi·los as "rope" but states that it is possibly an emendation of the phrase, "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God," thus indicating that ka´me·los, (camel) rather than ka´mi·los, (rope) appeared in the original Greek text. Furthermore.......
The oldest extant Greek manuscripts of the Gospel of Matthew (the Sinaitic, the Vatican No. 1209, and the Alexandrine), uses the word ka´me·los (camel.) In line with this, Matthew wrote this account first in Hebrew and then may have translated it himself into Greek. He knew what Jesus meant. Matthew knew the proper word that was used.
"It is easier for a camel to get through a needle’s eye than for a rich man to get into the kingdom of God." (Mt 19:24; Mr 10:25) .....
The needle’s eye to be a small gate ?
The important thing to note is the original term used...The Greek word for "needle" found at Matthew 19:24 and Mark 10:25 is ' rha·phis,' a verb that has a meaning " to sew." Also, the Greek word appearing in the parallel passage of Luke 18:25 is ' be·lo´ne.' This word is used to refer to a literal surgical needle.
It seems to be clear that the words camel and needle are the correct words to use.
The illustration Jesus used expressed how difficult it would be for rich men not simply to begin serving God but actually to enter into the Kingdom.-1Ti 6:17-19; Lu 13:24.
It illustrates that it was even less possible for a rich man, clinging to his riches, to enter into kingdom of heaven. Rope, cable or camel, as Juantoo rightfully says neither can pass through the eye of a needle and those that put wordly possessions and affairs before Jehovah God have got to pass through that needles eye.
LOL, leave it to the Jews to figure out the truth of this:
Midrash Rabbah, Song of songs states:
"The Holy One said, open for me a door as big as a needle's eye and I will open for you a door through which may enter tents and [camels?]"
For that which is impossible for Man, all things are possible with God. All God needs is for a would be believer to crack open the door, just get a foot in, and God takes it from there.
The Needle and the camel (rope, animal, gate or mountain pass so narrow, or the ancient Inns' tiny doorways used to deter thieves), they all present the same moral, namely we can't do it ourselves, but we can make a start, then God takes over for us.
Another interesting parallel to this is the one of Jesus standing at the door to our hearts and knocking. Would be a very small door indeed, let alone small standing room inside...yet He knocks. If we open the door, He will come in and be with us, and dine with us.
my thoughts
v/r
Q
Midrash Rabbah, Song of songs states:
"The Holy One said, open for me a door as big as a needle's eye and I will open for you a door through which may enter tents and [camels?]"
For that which is impossible for Man, all things are possible with God. All God needs is for a would be believer to crack open the door, just get a foot in, and God takes it from there.
The Needle and the camel (rope, animal, gate or mountain pass so narrow, or the ancient Inns' tiny doorways used to deter thieves), they all present the same moral, namely we can't do it ourselves, but we can make a start, then God takes over for us.
Another interesting parallel to this is the one of Jesus standing at the door to our hearts and knocking. Would be a very small door indeed, let alone small standing room inside...yet He knocks. If we open the door, He will come in and be with us, and dine with us.
my thoughts
v/r
Q