What Is Truth?The Great Historical Question Answered.

[Bandit]

You know that really makes me think. Yes it lends some validity for remembering it and having someone transcribe it for you 20-40 years after it occurred.... But more than that I would think the accounts would be soooo much longer. I look at the volumes that have been put out by those without that connection to Jesus and the events, and the fact that they must have been story tellers (telling the story) for all that time, you'd think there would be so much more to say. (not at all saying what was said wasn't enough) speaking of speaking volumes You've done quite well rewording my thought to make it understandable. As you discussed about growing up with the finger of God having written the bible...and then gone through some independent study learning more... it reminds me of the rude awakening my preacher had hearing from a Jesuit Priest in a masters level theology class, "You don't really think the garden of eden happenned do you? You don't realize Genesis is allegory?" He said many in the class needed smelling salts...but it was just the lesson they needed in order to finish the rest of the courses...

Tis a shame they don't teach 'truth' in Sunday school, or even church, thinking the masses aren't ready for it...only those that are serious students are prepared to handle it. I for one think the world would be better if all the cards were laid face up on the table instead of so close to the vest...I think christianity has lost more people due to not giving us the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth....

Let google copy the books from the vatican library!

namaste,

it sounds like you have a lot of anger & anomosity which i can relate to to an extent, but i dont see the point in letting it eat at you.
all i have seen since the first day you joined here is negative post after negative post against the bible & Christianity- not a good way to find whatever it is you are looking for.

is someone forcing you to do something you dont want to do? or do you want to force others to do & believe what you want them to believe?

i dont trust the vatican & never will, but do you see me constantly criticising them & other religions that i do not agree with on a regular basis?

i think you do have some issues Wil, with the bible & Christianity & so do I, but i put it all behind me.
i hope you will take this as constructive & do the same. You cannot change the past & if you dont like something then dont dwell on it & move on & you will be happier for doing so.
be happy.

 

[wil]

it sounds like you have a lot of anger & anomosity which i can relate to to an extent, but i dont see the point in letting it eat at you.
all i have seen since the first day you joined here is negative post after negative post against the bible & Christianity- not a good way to find whatever it is you are looking for.

is someone forcing you to do something you dont want to do? or do you want to force others to do & believe what you want them to believe?

i dont trust the vatican & never will, but do you see me constantly criticising them & other religions that i do not agree with on a regular basis?

i think you do have some issues Wil, with the bible & Christianity & so do I, but i put it all behind me.
i hope you will take this as constructive & do the same. You cannot change the past & if you dont like something then dont dwell on it & move on & you will be happier for doing so.
be happy.

I obviously have either issues hidden to me, or am absolutely terrible at putting my thoughts in words. I am not negative against the bible, I have a number of them around the house, in my car and at work, to be able to use whenever I find the time or need to read or look up something. I have parrallel bibles so I don't have to flip back and forth on pages... I consider myself a christian, ie learning to follow the teachings of Jesus. I continually take classes to learn more about theology, the bible, and its teachings and enjoy it immensely. I don't go to church every Sunday because I'm told to, or because I'll go to hell if I don't, I go because I want to, I love it, and wouldn't miss it.

I'm sorry you see my comments as negative. I am nothing but interested in finding out 'What is the Truth?' and find the Nag Hamadi texts, Dead Sea Scrolls, the Jefferson gospels, Paramahansa Yogananda, Tich Nat Hanh, Eckardt Tolle, the vedas, the gita and so much more....not only as enlightening and illuminating as the bible, but also deepening my respect for the books contained in it. And the fact that the writers, translations, interpretations and cannonizations all had influencing biases and power issues, not only strenghthens my understanding of what I am reading but increases the usefulness of same in my life.

Don't worry bandit, I have no issues with what you say about me, only have issues with myself that I may be missinterpretted so easily.

rule #2 don Miguel Ruiz...don't take anything personally.

namaste,

 

[Bandit]

I obviously have either issues hidden to me, or am absolutely terrible at putting my thoughts in words. I am not negative against the bible, I have a number of them around the house, in my car and at work, to be able to use whenever I find the time or need to read or look up something. I have parrallel bibles so I don't have to flip back and forth on pages... I consider myself a christian, ie learning to follow the teachings of Jesus. I continually take classes to learn more about theology, the bible, and its teachings and enjoy it immensely. I don't go to church every Sunday because I'm told to, or because I'll go to hell if I don't, I go because I want to, I love it, and wouldn't miss it.

I'm sorry you see my comments as negative. I am nothing but interested in finding out 'What is the Truth?' and find the Nag Hamadi texts, Dead Sea Scrolls, the Jefferson gospels, Paramahansa Yogananda, Tich Nat Hanh, Eckardt Tolle, the vedas, the gita and so much more....not only as enlightening and illuminating as the bible, but also deepening my respect for the books contained in it. And the fact that the writers, translations, interpretations and cannonizations all had influencing biases and power issues, not only strenghthens my understanding of what I am reading but increases the usefulness of same in my life.

Don't worry bandit, I have no issues with what you say about me, only have issues with myself that I may be missinterpretted so easily.

rule #2 don Miguel Ruiz...don't take anything personally.

namaste,

i believe you then & i love you like a brother & if it took me to say what i said to get you to see what i am trying to say, then i am glad. i thought in other places you were not claiming Jesus & the Bible & making a mockery of it or so i should say that is the how the approach keeps coming off with a lot of sarcasm. (i think)

i dont judge people to heaven or hell & go around trying 'save' people.
but if see someone standing on a cliff, i am going to say step back away from there so you dont fall. others may say nothing because they do not care & others may push you off.
and if you do fall, i am going to send a rope down to you to get you back to safety...even if you hate me for it.
i agree with almost everything you say in this post because i have done the same studies & have come to the same conclusions. so i suppose you can just search for truth forever, but at some point it does not hurt to lay some foundation work in the process, which i think you are trying to do.

what i think we should agree on is that MEN & RELIGION cause harm, but the bible itself does not bring harm, & Jesus does not bring harm, when truly & objectively study with a sincere & honest heart w/o all the preconceived dogma attached.
can we at least agree on that?

can we also agree that a lot of things we read are simply others opinions as far as the scholarly approach? & that appraoch is different than seeking truth between the lines of the scriptures?
the more you saturate yourself with the scriptures, one day you will see, it is very much so alive & i cant explain that, but they are alive.

i am also wondering if the history of Christianity & Rome brings you pain the same way it does for me? i have spent years struggling with that & years being shunned from people in denominations- but when i look at what really happened in the bible, before men starting abusing it, i find that peace & joy & hope, & i pray that you are finding that also.
now, i am being very sincere in my post today, with no sarcasm & i think that is needed at times to make real connections. i think you are doing things the right way & have the right approach about going to church also I really hope there is a good one in your area for you to fellowship with because we all need that.

i try to be a good listener Wil, & i can feel things that others feel.
at any rate, i am out of here for the weekend I will be holding you up in prayer as a special prayer this weekend because we all need to pray for each other.

Jesus said, I am the way the truth and the life & then in another place he asked, "What is truth?" & he left that up to you to decide. so remember that as you seek for truth.
dont believe me because i say so, test the scriptures & your own faith for yourself...
and what if, Jesus was telling the truth.

have a nice weekend & stay warm.
Peace & love in Christ

 

[Quahom1]

What is truth...

Truth is that we live, and then we die. It is the absolute truth.

Hope is that Jesus can by our accepting His promise, make us live again.

Faith is that Jesus will make us live again.

Love, is what we're supposed to do to each other in the mean time.

Finally, the "truth" is by Hope, Faith, and Love, we positively affect those around us, we make a difference, and we come to peace within ourselves. We live the good life, and fight the good fight. We do what is right, not scream about what our rights are. We give until it hurts, not take until they bleed. We concern ourselves with what we will leave behind, not what we can't take with us.

In math, three positives can not make a negative sum, nor a negative factor. That is the absolute truth.

Positive energy can not cause negative results.

Christianity is truth, because Jesus taught the way of truth. One can never go wrong by sticking to the rules of truth. Becuase by sticking to the rules of truth, people begin to trust. Trust begins hope, which begins faith, which generates love, which creates trust...nice cycle
v/r

Q

 

[presser_kun]

Hi, Bandit.

It took me a few days to get around to reading your thoughts, and now I'm ready to respond.

so, we can spend all our time only seeing it from a historic, scholarly, or fairy tale view, OR search for what God wants us to know.

I think God wants us to know the truth (no captital "t") about how the Bible we have today came to be. Learning about its origins can help us better understand what it says to us.

Here's an old illustration from a hermenutics class I took once. It's long, but it has a good point to make. I hope you'll take the time to read it.

While digging in the ruins of ancient Chicago in 3000 C.E., three Chinese anthropologists come upon a sealed time capsule. They take it into a lab and break the seal in a near vacuum environment to prevent destruction of the contents.

Among the artifacts is a newspaper with the headline, "Dewey Defeats Truman." Carefully turning the pages of the paper with sterilized tongs, the anthropologists look for information.

On the editorial page there is a cartoon drawing of an elephant hitting a donkey on the head with a baseball bat.

"Oh, look," says the first anthropologist. "This tells us something of the ancient American culture. They enjoyed entertainments involving animals that were forced to hurt each other. No wonder their civilization wasn't sustainable. They were so primitive!"

"No, you don't know your history," says the second anthropologist. "Look at the date of the paper. In the mid-20th century there was a team sport called baseball that was quite popular. Each team was represented by an animal mascot. This cartoon is an allegory. It means that the Elephants beat the Donkeys in a baseball game."

"Neither one of you truly know your history," said the third anthropologist. "In 20th century America the two great political parties of the day were also represented by animal mascots: elephant for republicans, donkey for democrats. The date of the paper is early November in an election year. The cartoon appears on the editorial page, which was devoted to politics. This is a humorous look at how badly the democrats were beaten in the presidential election that year.

"Of course," said the third anthropologist, the cartoon and the headline were wrong. It was the democrats who won that election."

The point is that knowing the historical context matters.

How can we know what God is saying to us if we don't understand the life and times of the people who wrote the Bible?

I guess what I'm saying is that looking into the beginnings and development of scripture is one of the holiest things we can do - at least it is for me.

I have trouble believing that God wants me to be kept in the dark, like a superstitious caveman dazzled by the words of the shaman/priest who holds the secret knowledge. This is what I think is happening when well-meaning Christians tell me to "just believe" and not to listen to those who want to question the Bible.

trying to convince someone to eat or not to eat spinach because they like or dont like spinach, is an agenda.

Well, if you thought someone was in danger of driving off a cliff, you'd try to keep her from it, right? Would the driver, thinking nothing was wrong, say you had an agenda?

hmmm.....

 

[presser_kun]

i take a more positive approach because i want to know what the scriptures are trying to say to me in spirit as well as how i should be in the flesh to make me a better person.

More of us should take this approach.

something happened that brought me back home today & maybe that was so that we could take a few minutes out of life & try to relate.

I like that, Bandit. Trying to relate is, possibly, one of the most god-like, Christ-like things we can do.

peace,

press

 

[presser_kun]

...reminds me of the rude awakening my preacher had hearing from a Jesuit Priest in a masters level theology class, "You don't really think the garden of eden happenned do you? You don't realize Genesis is allegory?" He said many in the class needed smelling salts...but it was just the lesson they needed in order to finish the rest of the courses...

*laughs* I went through a very tumultuous time when I learned of such things. Quite upsetting, really, and yet I grew from the experience.

Tis a shame they don't teach 'truth' in Sunday school, or even church, thinking the masses aren't ready for it...only those that are serious students are prepared to handle it. I for one think the world would be better if all the cards were laid face up on the table instead of so close to the vest...I think christianity has lost more people due to not giving us the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth....

Let google copy the books from the vatican library!

I'm in hearty agreement with both sentiments!

peace,

press

 

[Curios Mike]

presser_kun wrote

then I think he wants us to treat each other with respect.

That is a truth even Jesus preached: Matt 22:35-40
35 Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, 36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?" 37 Jesus said to him, " 'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."
NKJV

These two statements wether direct or pariphrased or Written by someone who dont even know Christ; are the basis of All truth on how to treat your fellow man.

OK what is truth.... what goes up must come down, if you crash your car in a wall, inertia will carry your body the rest of the way.... How many great scientist did it take to find these truth.... Should science even been used to figer out something so simple. Those are cominsensical Truths. As well as the 2 great comandments. What other truths do we need? DO you need to know if God exists??? What do you believe? What is faith? Is it the Truth, that you do not believe in a God. Or Do u need to feel the nails to believe Jesus existed? Was Jesus a false prophet claiming to be something he wasnt? Or is he actually the son of God? What if Shakespear wrote most of the Bible?

But now on a slightly more serious note , what if Gods word is not nessicarily what is written a book, or books, but rather what he is writing in your life, or heart? If you can valify this...... you can valify God in your life!

 

[Bandit]

More of us should take this approach.



I like that, Bandit. Trying to relate is, possibly, one of the most god-like, Christ-like things we can do.

peace,

press

hi presser_kun
i am going out of town for the holiday & will get back to this in a week or so. i think we relate very well & looking forward to it.

 

[presser_kun]

What other truths do we need? DO you need to know if God exists??? What do you believe? What is faith? Is it the Truth, that you do not believe in a God. Or Do u need to feel the nails to believe Jesus existed? Was Jesus a false prophet claiming to be something he wasnt? Or is he actually the son of God? What if Shakespear wrote most of the Bible?

But now on a slightly more serious note , what if Gods word is not nessicarily what is written a book, or books, but rather what he is writing in your life, or heart? If you can valify this...... you can valify God in your life!

I'm having trouble understanding your point. Can you clarify what you mean?

peace,

press

 

[Curios Mike]

I guess what I'm trying to say is, the ability to prove God exist is not nesisarily through science, or a copy right. But the impact he has in your life. But this can only happen if you 1st believe he exist.

1 John 5:9
9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son.
NKJV

 

[Quahom1]

I guess what I'm trying to say is, the ability to prove God exist is not nesisarily through science, or a copy right. But the impact he has in your life. But this can only happen if you 1st believe he exist.

1 John 5:9
9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son.
NKJV

I think Mike that that is the beauty of God. One does not have to believe He exists, in order for Him to act in one's life.

v/r

Q

 

[Saltmeister]

I was taught as a boy that the Bible is the word of God.

In college, I found out that it was written by men.

I think it really depends on what you mean by "the Word of God."

Before the world was created, the Word already existed; He was with God, and He was the same as God. John 1:1

What this says is that the Word itself is God -- God is His own Word. The Bible also says that Jesus was God's Word.

The Word was in the world, and though God made the world through Him, yet the world did not recognise Him. He came to His own country, but His own people did not receive Him. John 1:10-11

Bible therefore cannot be regarded as "the Word of God" because the Bible itself is not God, and God is His own Word. So if the Bible is not the Word of God, what is it? I think the correct way to think of the Bible is to say that it is a collection of writings by people who discovered God. They discovered who God was and wrote about Him. They were intimate with God and were what you could call "true believers" in the sense that what they wrote about God was truthful.

The "Truth" we're concerned about is about God. The Bible didn't come as a book of science or history. It came as a book about God. It's aim is not to convey scientific or historical truth, but the Truth about God.

Of course, many people have claimed to speak on God's behalf, so we have to distinguish between those who spoke/wrote the Truth about God and those who were fakes. So how do we know? We read and listen to what they say. God is a living person with personality. If we know what kind of God we have, then we know what kinds of writings He would inspire people to write.

I think the books of the Bible (Old and New Testaments) were chosen because it was believed that these were the books that contained the Truth about God and His Kingdom. The Jewish Rabbis and Early Church leaders who canonised it believed the writings to have been inspired by God to bring us all back to Him and His Kingdom (our home).

I think that's the Truth about the Truth. We don't belong in this world. We belong somewhere else. God wants to bring us back to that the home where we really belong. The Bible was meant to lead us back to God and that Home Sweet Home.

Jesus, the Word of God, came to tell us this Truth about the Truth.

It's all about God and Home Sweet Home.

 

[wil]

God is a living person with personality.

???

 

[mee]

Like his Father Jehovah, Jesus Christ is "full of undeserved kindness and truth." (Joh 1:14; Eph 4:21) While on earth, he always spoke the truth as he had received it from his Father. (Joh 8:40, 45, 46) "He committed no sin, nor was deception found in his mouth." (1Pe 2:22) Jesus represented things as they really were. Besides being ‘full of truth,’ Jesus was himself "the truth," and truth came through him. He declared: "I am the way and the truth and the life." (Joh 14:6) And the apostle John wrote: "The Law was given through Moses, the undeserved kindness and the truth came to be through Jesus Christ."—Joh 1:17

 

[Saltmeister]

Quote: God is a living person with personality.

???

If you're confused, what I was saying was that while the Bible may have been written by men, maybe this is the big secret in the Bible. The authors "discovered" God.

The world is full of religions, full of different ways of looking at the meaning of life, the purpose of life, etc. Buddhism, Yoga, New Age, Islam, etc. There are also many different concepts of God. Religions have been with us since the beginning of the human race, so these issues have been around for thousands of years.

It may be that the authors of the Bible realised that in the midst of all these religions, there was only one correct concept of God. These were the people who discovered "The Truth about God." They were the ones who truly understood God. This is what I mean by "discovering" God. From a Christian point of view, these people could have been Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Paul, Peter, James and John. Many more could be included in this list, including those who aren't prophets or apostles.

Jesus said that "God is a Spirit, and His people must worship in spirit and in truth." (John 4:24)

A lot of Christian leaders can really get Christianity mixed up with politics, or start being legalistic about what we're allowed to do and what we should not do. There's those that think that Christianity is about whether President George Bush should declare war against countries harbouring terrorists, or whether abortion should be legal or if homosexuals should be allowed to marry. How does that align with the Way of Christ? I read Romans, 1/2 Corinthians, Galatians, .. . . 1/2 Peter and 1/2/3 John and I wonder how these ideas could come from Christianity?

When I said that thing about God being "a living person" it was to say that God isn't just a principle. Some people think of God as a principle of good, rather than someone who actually has a mind of His own. Instead of God actually existing, some people think it's us human beings working together with their good will that "create God" rather than God actually having been around all along.

It's a bit like the New Age notion of "God is everything." The New Age philosophy is that good and evil don't really exist. It teaches that we're all part of a "System of Life" that is evolving to some future form of perfection. In the New Age philosophy, God doesn't create us, we create God. Imagine that you're God and you create humans. The humans you create then turn their backs on You and say that you didn't really create them -- No, they created You!!!! That would really hurt.

Our concept of God really really matters to God. He is personal. My point was that in the midst of all these religions with their varying notions of God, the authors of the Bible probably got it right. They got it right because they understood God for what He truly was.

He is a Spirit, not something we build with our own hands. We didn't create Him; we discovered Him. The prophets discovered Him first, so they wrote about Him so that we never have to go far to find Him. All we need to do is read the Bible.

This may well be the Truth about the Truth.

 

[wil]

I'm so glad you answered I dearly hoped we weren't back to that larger than life anthropormorphic being throwing plagues and lightning bolts from sunday school...

The humans you create then turn their backs on You and say that you didn't really create them -- No, they created You!!!! That would really hurt.

Now it would hurt, if 'he' would have human emotions and not be above all that...but I think we both allow a little more credit than that.

 

[presser_kun]

I think it really depends on what you mean by "the Word of God."

Hi, Saltmeister.

What I mean is that the Bible is the word (lower case "w") that comes from God, and not the Word (capital "W") of God, the Logos, the "in the beginning"-ness of Jesus.

Most of what you say is true, I think. At least what you said about the book.

I challenge you, however, on your thinking about God's nature. Here's a quote from The Cloud of Unknowing, written by a 14th century English mystic:

"Shall I, a gnat, which dances in Thy Ray, dare to be reverent?

I like this quote a lot. It reminds me of how much bigger God is than any of our conceptions, either as individuals or as societies, cultures, and/or civilizations.

God may, indeed, be a personality, but I suspect that it's only a ruse to get us to speak to him. Sort of like the scene at the end of Contact, in which Jody Foster's character is walking a beach with a being that looks like her father. The alien from an advanced civilization tells her that he/it is appearing to her in this form because "it's better for you this way."

Do you ever wonder if we'd really be able to take it if God revealed his true nature to us?

~ ~ ~

Hm, we're off topic here. Evidences in support of creationism is the proper subject. I won't try to obliquely connect my thoughts here to our central discussion, but - since I'm already this far into it (^__~), I'll share one more quote, which goes rather the other direction (i.e., supporting the "God is a personality" concept).

An "impersonal God"-- well and good. A subjective God of beauty, truth and goodness, inside our own heads -- better still. A formless life-force surging through us, a vast power which we can tap -- best of all. But God Himself, alive, pulling at the other end of the cord, perhaps, approaching an infinite speed, the hunter, king, husband -- that is quite another matter. There comes a moment when the children who have been playing at burglars hush suddenly: was that a real footstep in the hall? There comes a moment when people who have been dabbling in religion ("Man's search for God!") suddenly draw back. Supposing we really found Him? We never meant it to come to that! Worse still, supposing He had found us? --C. S. Lewis

This quote, btw, is from this page:

http://www.tentmaker.org/Quotes/godquotes.htm

There are some interesting thoughts by some interesting people there.

peace, and -- as Bartles and James used to say -- thanks for your support.

press

 

[Bandit]

Hi, Bandit.



Well, if you thought someone was in danger of driving off a cliff, you'd try to keep her from it, right? Would the driver, thinking nothing was wrong, say you had an agenda?

hmmm.....

possibly. i saw a movie where this lady put sleeping pills into peoples drinks & they drove off the cliff...she definately had an agenda to kill them so she could get rich...but she eventually got caught.

cant remember what all we were talking about here...seemed like it was about the bible.
i dont question the bible being true. there are very few scriptures that i question. my questions come from believing it & searching for the wisdom of God that is hidden in it, not questioning to try & prove it wrong. from a simple historical perspective, i dont think it has ever been wrong- but then others will have a different view than i do.
if you want to question it that way, that is up to you. i certainly am not going to try & stop or convince anyone of anything.

 

[presser_kun]

i dont question the bible being true. there are very few scriptures that i question. my questions come from believing it & searching for the wisdom of God that is hidden in it, not questioning to try & prove it wrong. from a simple historical perspective, i dont think it has ever been wrong- but then others will have a different view than i do.

if you want to question it that way, that is up to you. i certainly am not going to try & stop or convince anyone of anything.

Your siggy says . . .

He Looked beyond my fault and saw my need.

Perhaps that's the best answer to whether or not the Bible is true, or God exists, or any of these questions that plague us endlessly.

peace,

press