What about the people that hadn't heard - could they have lived a fulfiling live?

[Thomas]

My argument, as a Catholic, with the doctrines of the Reformation (Protestantism, Church of England...) is that they limit the freedom of God to act, confining him to salvivic action only within His church - but define the church as the physical body which they represent.

The Catholic notion of Church - or more rightly of the original Greek 'ekklesia' or 'people called forth' - is that the physical Church is the witness and Presence of God in the world (the Deposit of Faith) - without the Church there would be a calling, but no Presence - whilst at the same time God can act as He wills (the spirit bloweth where it listeth) and as he sees fit.

We know this because Christ himself spoke of salvation in the same terms to Jew and Gentile alike - notably the Samaritan woman at the well, or the Centurian who's daughter was ill; that his mission to the apostles was to the world, not just the Jews, and that Paul was called as the Apostle to the Gentiles ... so although the Old Testament is a Covenant between God and the Jews; the New Testament is a Covenant between God and man as a creature made in the image and likeness.

The conversion of Cornelius in Acts states just this - that the Holy Spirit descended upon Cornelius and his kin PRIOR to their reception into the Church.

It was Clement of Alexandria who spoke of 'Christians before Christ' and it was Newman, the famous convert from the Church of England, who spoke of 'anonymous Christians'.

The latter term is the most telling, whilst outwardly 'anonymous Christians' implies those who respond to the call of God but have no knowledge of His church, the term also signifiers the nature of the relationship with Jesus - the Saviour is no less present in, with and to them as he is to the Christian, but the Christian knows His name and his story, as it were, whilst to the anonymous the first 'anonymity' is that of the Divine Presence in the soul.

Thomas

 

[TexLittlefield]

.......
now i cant say everyone is hearing, though everyone has the ability to hear if they choose to hear & faith cometh by hearing & hearing by the Word of God-but would hope that those who have an ear (a spiritual ear) are hearing.
.........
Paul says I will show you my faith by my works & James says faith without works is dead.

>>>Paul says I will show you my faith by my works<<<<

But how would he show HIS (Christ's) faith ?

What "saves" ?

YOUR faith in Christ ?

or Christ's faith , which you possess, because he gave it [faith] to you ?


>>>>everyone has the ability to hear if they choose to hear<<<<<

"everyone" ?

1Corinthians 1:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God.......
niether can he know them,because they are spiritually discerned.

Seems "no one" can , unless the ability is "given"

So who is this "ability" given to ? Everyone?

 

[wil]

Re: What about the people that hadn't heard - could they have lived a fulfiling live

My argument, as a Catholic, with the doctrines of the Reformation (Protestantism, Church of England...) is that they limit the freedom of God to act, confining him to salvivic action only within His church - but define the church as the physical body which they represent.

That may the Catholic viewpoint, but that does not mean that it is the Protestant viewpoint or God's.

I'm wondering how anyone can 'limit' God?

 

[Bandit]

>>>Paul says I will show you my faith by my works<<<<

But how would he show HIS (Christ's) faith ?

What "saves" ?

YOUR faith in Christ ?

or Christ's faith , which you possess, because he gave it [faith] to you ?


>>>>everyone has the ability to hear if they choose to hear<<<<<

"everyone" ?

1Corinthians 1:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God.......
niether can he know them,because they are spiritually discerned.

Seems "no one" can , unless the ability is "given"

So who is this "ability" given to ? Everyone?

Hi TexLittlefield

as far as i can see, faith is an individual ability & each person has it, not everyone knows how to activate it. when it is activated, it does not do nothing.
um, you decide for yourself what you should believe & what you should do.
i am going to keep my own ducks in order the best i can & not worry about everyone elses ducks, unless they ask me for help.

faith cometh by hearing & hearing by the Word of God-

i have already said what i feel about it, for me.
peace unto you

 

[TexLittlefield]

as far as i can see, faith is an individual ability & each person has it, not everyone knows how to activate it.....

So whose "fault" is it if they "don't know how to 'activate' " ?

um, you decide for yourself what you should believe & what you should do.

"decide for yourself"

would that include infants , for example ?

 

[Bandit]

So whose "fault" is it if they "don't know how to 'activate' " ?



"decide for yourself"

would that include infants , for example ?

i would say their own fault because they choose not to hear the Word & wander off into other things. children & infants learn to have faith in their parents & dont even realize it. i dont think anyone can expect a child to know what that is, because i did not know what faith is until much later in life yet i was willing to hear the scriptures all of my life. i believe there is an age of accountability.

so it is easy to see why Jesus taught child like faith in God, the faith of a mustard seed etc.

i dont know what your beliefs are but i know there are over 400 scriptures in the bible on faith & that tells me how important it is & i believe every one of those scriptures. Christianity is one of the few (maybe only) beliefs that i know who seriously teaches faith, & that is faith in Jesus Christ.

is that what you want to hear?
what do you think?

 

[TexLittlefield]

i would say their own fault because they choose not to hear the Word & wander off into other things.

That would mean "we" did did a good thing when we 'heard'....
and "they" didn't. Or ,in other words, "we" deserve salvation ..and "they"
don't. "We' DID the 'good deed' {we heard}... and "they" didn't;
not deserveing of salvation.
Correct ?

.....because i did not know what faith is until much later in life yet i was willing to hear the scriptures all of my life.

Exactly

It is not necessary to 'know' what faith is...at any time in your life.....
if you have received it as a gift.
Understanding doesn't save.....faith does.

Which begs the question...how did that faith get there ?

If someone didn't understand enough to ask for it.

 

[Bandit]

They would mean "we" did did a good thing when we 'heard'....
and "they" didn't. Or ,in other words, "we" deserve salvation ..and "they"
don't. "We' DID the 'good deed' {we heard}... and "they" didn't;
not deserveing of salvation.
Correct ?.

that sounds about right to me. so many people just flat out reject & exclude Jesus & the blood of Jesus as a reality. at the same time i think there are millions of people (native american indians) for example, who lived for hundreds of years not knowing about Jesus & not even knowing there was a bible, who believed in God, & Jesus was reaching out to them also, they just did not realize it or understand the way we do today. there is no reason as far as i am concerned that they too will be saved.
i know God is a merciful loving God.

Faith is not just about salvation. We walk by faith & not by sight. We learn to walk in the spirit through faith.
there is a real relationship with God when we do this. you know?

Exactly

It is not necessary to 'know' what faith is...at any time in your life.....
if you have received it as a gift.
Understanding doesn't save.....faith does.

Which begs the question...how did that faith get there ?

If someone didn't understand enough to ask for it.

i think it is always there people just dont know how it works. i must say if it was not for the scriptures, i would not know what faith in God is either. the Word of God is a true establishment & faith builder & i think prayer helps a lot too.

how did faith get there?

faith cometh by hearing & hearing by the Word of God.
NOW Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

my answer is not going to change

so faith is a real thing & it has substance, but i think the key here is having faith NOW. not tomorrow but right now & that takes time to learn. AND having that faith in God, not just anything or anyone, because we are people & we can fail, but God cannot fail.
Faith in God can be excercised & when we do it, the faith grows bigger & stronger like a mustard bush.
hope that all makes sense.

 

[Pico]

Re: What about the people that hadn't heard - could they have lived a fulfiling live

Yes, but doesn't answer my question - what about the people that haven't heard???

My mom is probably the churchiest person I know, and she goes to Bible studies and stuff like that.

She told me that after everyone dies; that since God wants everyone to be with him; Jesus will come to then and give them one last chance to accept him, or to fall forever.

I dunno where in the Bible it talks about that, but she's studied it--probably pretty extensively--I haven't.

 

[Nattering Nabob]

Re: What about the people that hadn't heard

So what about the people that hadn't heard?

Romans Ch. 2

12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

 

[Silas]

Re: What about the people that hadn't heard - could they have lived a fulfiling live

People dont go to hell because they dont hear the gospel, rather they go there for their law breaking (sins). God will always do what is right and just and fair (Gen 18:1). If anyone is willing to know God, God will make a way for Christ to be known to them that they may believe upon the Christ and be saved. In ages past (OT times), many believed God's promise concerning the coming Messiah and their faith were counted as righteousness because His [the Messiah's] righteousness were imputed to their account. Likewise, in the NT time and still now, we believe in the promise that came, i.e., Jesus, and our faith is counted as righteousness and His perfection or righteousness is imputed/credited to our account.

All that said, I think it is important to repeat that if anyone wants to know God, God will make a way for them to hear about Christ, whether through a missionary, written words, an angel, or whatever else. We can know that God exist by Creation alone (Psa 19:1-5). Also, we can know who God is by our Conscience. God has written His laws upon our hearts and given us a moral alarm - namely, the conscience, which by the way means "with knowledge" - Con meaning "with" and science meaning "knowledge," so that when we break any of the laws He has written on our hearts, the alarm (conscience) will sound and we will break that law "with knowledge" that it is wrong to do so. If we humble ourselves and acknowledge the obvious facts that we arent as good as we claim to be or would like to be, because our conscience testifiies to that fact, that we can call out to God for help and He will save us by revealing Christ, the Savior of man, who can take away their sins and give them a new nature. Anyone who wants to be saved will be! God has made it so easy, you only need to be humble enough to admit your faults and want to give up sin. C.S. Lewis once said in his famous "liar lunatic lord" trilimma, the following:

"In a civilization like ours, I feel that every man must come to terms with the claims of Christ on his life, else he is guitly of pervading the question."

What is the question? Jesus asks everyone..."Who do you say that I am?" If you believe that He is who He claims to be - namely, Lord or all lords and God, then repent and believe in your heart and trust in Him by following Him for the rest of your life, and YOU WILL BE SAVED!!

 

[Quahom1]

Re: What about the people that hadn't heard - could they have lived a fulfiling live

People dont go to hell because they dont hear the gospel, rather they go there for their law breaking (sins). God will always do what is right and just and fair (Gen 18:1).

People go to hell when God tells them to, and that is between the individual and God...

I'm certain there are many "christians" who will be meeting the hotter environment, once Jesus declares He never knew them...I believe their primary "sin" will be self-righteous pride, and arrogance.

 

[Silas]

Re: What about the people that hadn't heard - could they have lived a fulfiling live

People go to hell when God tells them to, and that is between the individual and God...

I'm certain there are many "christians" who will be meeting the hotter environment, once Jesus declares He never knew them...I believe their primary "sin" will be self-righteous pride, and arrogance.

I agree with what you said, even with the pride part. Pride is such a wicked sin I believe, and I deal with it in my own walk. But, I am certian that if one desires to be changed and follow after Christ and trust in what He acomplished on behalf of sinners, they are, as scriptures declear... "gone from death to life." Therefore, hell is not their destiny, as God in His amazing grace swore. It is amazing what God has done, I feel. To send His Son to be the propetation for sinners, whereby they may be justified before God and be freed from the law. Absolutely amazing!

 

[Quahom1]

Re: What about the people that hadn't heard - could they have lived a fulfiling live

I agree with what you said, even with the pride part. Pride is such a wicked sin I believe, and I deal with it in my own walk. But, I am certian that if one desires to be changed and follow after Christ and trust in what He acomplished on behalf of sinners, they are, as scriptures declear... "gone from death to life." Therefore, hell is not their destiny, as God in His amazing grace swore. It is amazing what God has done, I feel. To send His Son to be the propetation for sinners, whereby they may be justified before God and be freed from the law. Absolutely amazing!

but you are not the one to judge...and that is what ticks off non christians. Christ is between HE and the individual. Not you or anyone else, He, and the individual. Paul judged no one. What he did do was mediate between opposing parties. He was an arbitor, not a judge. Does that make sense? We are arbitors...not judges...not yet.

v/r

Joshua

 

[Silas]

Re: What about the people that hadn't heard - could they have lived a fulfiling live

but you are not the one to judge...and that is what ticks off non christians. Christ is between HE and the individual. Not you or anyone else, He, and the individual. Paul judged no one. What he did do was mediate between opposing parties. He was an arbitor, not a judge. Does that make sense? We are arbitors...not judges.

v/r

Joshua

Makes perfect sense! But, I dont judge. Why did you say that? I only say what the Bible says - namely, "those that dont believe are already condemned." This is the same as Paul or anyone who preaches bibically. The gospel isnt therapy and isnt good news until one understands that they have fallen short of God's glory by breaking all of His laws. Until they get that fact, the gospel will always be as the Bible says, "Foolish," "Offensive" "a stumbling block," etc. When they understand this fact, i.e., the fact that they are guilty and deserving of God's Justice, the good news about Jesus becomes precious! And, only then can we sing with the ex-slave trader, John Netwon, "Amazing grace, how sweet the song that saved a wretch like me. I once was lost but now I'm found, was blind but now I see."

 

[Quahom1]

Re: What about the people that hadn't heard - could they have lived a fulfiling live

Makes perfect sense! But, I dont judge. Why did you say that? I only say what the Bible says - namely, "those that dont believe are already condemned." This is the same as Paul or anyone who preaches bibically. The gospel isnt therapy and isnt good news until one understands that they have fallen short of God's glory by breaking all of His laws. Until they get that fact, the gospel will always be as the Bible says, "Foolish," "Offensive" "a stumbling block," etc. When they understand this fact, i.e., the fact that they are guilty and deserving of God's Justice, the good news about Jesus becomes precious! And, only then can we sing with the ex-slave trader, John Netwon, "Amazing grace, how sweet the song that saved a wretch like me. I once was lost but now I'm found, was blind but now I see."

I'm sorry Silas. I don't live and die by the bible. It is a guide, but my life is mine. And I look to God for guidence, but I choose ultimately, my destiny. I will answer to God one day, but in the mean time I am left to my own devices, and to prayers answered or not...

As the Romans so elloquently and simply stated..."Io solo". And as the Brits expressed "May God defend" That means I am me. And God watches out for me. May I do right by God, but I do as me.

Mayhap, I will give my life to God. But so far He is content with my giving my life to mankind...and you are not my judge. And I really take offense to you thinking you are more saved than me.

Perhaps you are. But that is not your decision to make, now is it?

v/r

Joshua

 

[Silas]

Re: What about the people that hadn't heard - could they have lived a fulfiling live

Quahom

I'm sorry Silas. I don't live and die by the bible. It is a guide, but my life is mine. And I look to God for guidence, but I choose ultimately, my destiny. I will answer to God one day, but in the mean time I am left to my own devices, and to prayers answered or not...

I'm really sorry to hear that, Q! If only you knew, at least to some degree, how wicked our hearts and minds are (Jer. 17:9), you would trust the Bible and not lean on your own understanding, like Proverb 3:5 said. You have to come to understand, bro, that ultimately you're flawed like everyone else, even me. We're born in sin and shaped in iniquity, we're flawed. Our conscience and mind and heart are all tained by sin, we cannot trust ourselves. Our guide must come from higher than ourselves if we want to grow in God. I know you might not agree, but does that make sense?

As the Romans so elloquently and simply stated..."Io solo". And as the Brits expressed "May God defend" That means I am me. And God watches out for me. May I do right by God, but I do as me.

"There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death" (Proverb 14:12). There are certain absolute truths in the world. Everyone knows this, yet not all admit it lest they have to conform to these immutable truths. You hear some people say "this is right for me" and yet others say "you're wrong, that is immoral and therefore we should not do it." Ultimately, bro., there must be something higher than us - a higher law to govern us or else we'd be like the example I gave. Some people will do certian things and say it is good and yet others will condemn that very thing as immoral and there will not be peace between the two groups. There must be a higher law for us to be govern by if we are to have peace. The Bible offers truth and claims to be God's words to give us light on how to live in every arena in life. Have you ever studied the Bible?

Mayhap, I will give my life to God. But so far He is content with my giving my life to mankind...and you are not my judge. And I really take offense to you thinking you are more saved than me.

Dont take offensive to anything I say because I only say what I say in hopes that God uses it to His glory in saving people. Dont think that I am self-righteous, because I am not. I wrestle with my own sins as a young man daily. Between my lusting and proud heart alone, I am left humbled, knowing that its ONLY by God's grace I am what I am. I only look to share certain truths with others in the hopes that they become inspired to "test" it out, for lack of better words. I want to ask you a question, Joshua. Please dont take offense. How do you know you are saved?

Perhaps you are. But that is not your decision to make, now is it?

It is the very hard job of every Christian to tell the lost about their sins and then reveal the good news of Christ if they are humbled by the truth of their sins, lest we throw perls to swine. Again, the gospel isnt therpy and it is only good news after we have come to realize our guilt and worthiness of God's wrath. Only then does Jesus become precious to Him and we desiere to live and die for Him. If anyone comes to Christ without repentance and faith, they remaind dead in sins and is lost. These are the sort you mentioned earlier...those that hear Jesus' dreadful words, "Depart from me you worker of evil, I never knew you!"

 

[Quahom1]

Re: What about the people that hadn't heard - could they have lived a fulfiling live

Quahom


I'm really sorry to hear that, Q! If only you knew, at least to some degree, how wicked our hearts and minds are (Jer. 17:9), you would trust the Bible and not lean on your own understanding, like Proverb 3:5 said. You have to come to understand, bro, that ultimately you're flawed like everyone else, even me. We're born in sin and shaped in iniquity, we're flawed. Our conscience and mind and heart are all tained by sin, we cannot trust ourselves. Our guide must come from higher than ourselves if we want to grow in God. I know you might not agree, but does that make sense?

I beg your damn pardon. You have no idea who I am, or where I've been, or what I have seen. You know nothing about me. Take your wickedness, hell fire and crap, and stuff it sir. I'll deal with God in my own fashion, and He will deal with me. You have no say on the matter (thank God). One should worry about the board in one's own eye...preacher...

 

[Silas]

Re: What about the people that hadn't heard - could they have lived a fulfiling live

I beg your damn pardon. You have no idea who I am, or where I've been, or what I have seen. You know nothing about me. Take your wickedness, hell fire and crap, and stuff it sir. I'll deal with God in my own fashion, and He will deal with me. You have no say on the matter (thank God). One should worry about the board in one's own eye...preacher...

Its been said time and agian that when a spiritually dead man hears of his sin, he is quickly offended and in anger is quick to both defend and justify himself. Yet, when the spiritually awaken man hears of his sin, he is driven to tears and grows in a deeper appriciate for God's Grace. I'm sorry you felt offended by what I said, Q. I honestly didnt mean to offend you! I'll drop it.

 

[Quahom1]

Re: What about the people that hadn't heard - could they have lived a fulfiling live

Its been said time and agian that when a spiritually dead man hears of his sin, he is quickly offended and in anger is quick to both defend and justify himself. Yet, when the spiritually awaken man hears of his sin, he is driven to tears and grows in a deeper appriciate for God's Grace. I'm sorry you felt offended by what I said, Q. I honestly didnt mean to offend you! I'll drop it.

It is also said that an innocent man will fight for his innocence until the cows come home. He will not give his accuser an in for one second.
And he will cry the tears of the frustrated. You did mean to offend. I will not give in to your "argument". You don't know me, nore do you know many people. You assume all are dead to God, except for you of course. I feel sorry for you.