How can Muslims be assured that the Qur'an is the Word of God?

Bol777

And what should we think of the errors in the Quran ?
Is it to "decrease the faith of the believers" ?

Before you quote a verse from the Quran you should check it.
74:31 says : "alladhina fi qulubihim maradun" "those in whose hearts is a disease".
The Quran writers thought the mind was in the heart. God would not have made such a mistake.
 
Peace to all....

Historians are not very sure about which verse was revealed in Mecca and which one in Madina. In the same chapter there may be verses from both.

Utterly false. The Quran was revealed to Muhammad PBUH in 22 years 2 months and 22 days. It was not difficult at all for the Quran scribes to differ which verse was revealed in Makkah or Medina. Note that the verses which tells the defeat of Rome and its' victory in future is the first four verses of Sura Rome. Surely the first four sura must have been revealed in Makkah, no doubt about that. Otherwise it wouldn't have been categorized as Makkiyah.

Anyway the Quran we have now is not the original writings from Muhammad's time, which were destroyed, but the recension of Uthman. Moreover all the descriptions of how that recension was made are from later traditions.So there is no proof that the verses 30:3-4 were written down before 622.

Go to this thread "The First Quran" you can get more info---> http://www.comparative-religion.com...33&page=1&pp=15
You can look for answers there about the Quran in the time of Utman.

There is proof that 30:3-4 is revealed b4 622. Allah appointed Muhammad as His Messenger when he was 40, which is 610.As i have stated in my last post, the Hijrah to Medina was not untill 622. The Sura Rome is revealed somewhere between 610 and 622 because it is categorized under Makkiyah (chapters revealed in Makkah).The rest you can figure it out yourself.

The Persian were Zoroastrians, who are included among monotheists. At least they are not considered as pagans.

Zoroastrianism originated from persia and is a monotheistic religion. But the thing here is the persians a superpower at that time didn't recognize zoroastrianism. Only small number of persians embraced this religion and till present the number of zoroastrians never got near to 1 million. The persians who were battling with the romans were mageans (majusi)...worshipping fires and idols not God as how Abrahamic religions perceive God, in other sense the persians at that time were pagans.

The Quran makes mistakes and it does not correct them.
That is the big difference and the reason why I prefer to rely on historians than the Quran.As you are going to ask me for the Quran's mistakes I give you a short list:
- man created from mud (old pagan myth that passed in the Bible then in the Quran)
- Solomon has an army of men, jinns, birds and ants
- there are seven skies or heavens
- heart is the seat of thinking and intelligence
- sperm originates from the kidney area
- Jews consider Uzayr the Son of God as Christians do with Jesus
- heaven, earth and ants can talk (case of animism)
- shooting stars are used to pelt devils
- Noah and the Flood is another pagan myth
- the crossing and death of a pharaoh in the Red Sea is unknown of history
- birds throw stones to repel an invading army
- etc

The Quran does not correct any mistake because there is non to correct. The list that you've given is nothing of an evidence to proove that the Quran is full of "mistakes" because there is no argument at all...it is no more than just a list. Please provide your arguments as to why these events are "mistakes" in the Quran. Maybe you might want to be more detail and it'll help to make this discussion more livelier.

Before you quote a verse from the Quran you should check it.
74:31 says : "alladhina fi qulubihim maradun" "those in whose hearts is a disease". The Quran writers thought the mind was in the heart. God would not have made such a mistake.

The full text of 74:31 is as below:
"And We have set none but angels as Guardians of the Fire; and We have fixed their number only as a trial for Unbelievers,- in order that the People of the Book may arrive at certainty, and the Believers may increase in Faith,- and that no doubts may be left for the People of the Book and the Believers, and that those in whose hearts is a disease and the Unbelievers may say, "What symbol doth Allah intend by this ?" Thus doth Allah leave to stray whom He pleaseth, and guide whom He pleaseth: and none can know the forces of thy Lord, except He and this is no other than a warning to mankind." Sura Al-Mudahtsir (The one enveloped), verse 31

In this verse the part which states "those in whose hearts is a disease" is a common literature in Quran to describe someone with an ill will. It never meant to say that the mind was in the heart. Anyone can easily understand the meaning of a diseased heart when they read through the whole verse. A diseased heart is to describe a malevolence personality in someone. So again there is no clear point of argument here saying that it is a "mistake" in the Quran.
And FIY the writers do no more than just writing the Quran...
not Authoring:cool:

Peace:)
 
The belief that the heart is the seat of the mind and the soul is an old Semitic belief that is found in the Bible and was taken up by the Quran.
It explains for example why the menstruating woman is deemed impure in Judaism and Islam.
The soul being in the heart is in the blood too.
God forbade the consumption of blood for that reason. Blood carrying the soul, which is from God, belongs to God.
The menstruating woman spoils so to speak God's deposit in humans.

Quran 18:57 says : "We put a thick veil on their hearts so that they don't understand." It implies the heart is the seat of understanding.

Quran 22:46 says : "Haven't they got hearts to understand and ears to hear ?" Understanding and hearing are associated with their respective organs.

The list of mistakes in the Quran is not a complete list as I wrote it down from my memory.
So you just dismiss that list as nonsense. It's the easiest way out for you but is it the most intelligent ?
There are two possible reasons why you dismissed it : 1) accepting it would be against the Quran 2) you are unable to contradict it.

The Magi are not members of another religion but the name given to the Zoroastrian priests.
 
;) Peace to mansio and all....

The Torah, Gospel and Quran is revealed to the semites which includes Jews and Arabs. All three of these holy scriptures came from the same source, which is God Himself. God somehow had use the same style of literature in all three books. The Bible and the Quran have something in common not because there's a writer (a human) who copied some parts of Bible and copied it into the Quran...it is because the Author of both books is the same Author and thus He maintains His Own Style with His Words.

So you just dismiss that list as nonsense. It's the easiest way out for you but is it the most intelligent ?
There are two possible reasons why you dismissed it : 1) accepting it would be against the Quran 2) you are unable to contradict it.

I dismiss it because you didn't provide any xplanation / reason to why it is a "mistake". Any Tom,Dick & Harry could have made the same list. If you have provided a reason to support your prosecution, then God willing..i would be able to contradict it.

The Magi are not members of another religion but the name given to the Zoroastrian priests.

Mageans are well-known for their worship of fire and idols. If mageans were Zoroastrians, then they wouldn't have worshipped any other beings besides Ahura Mazda (The Wise Lord), The only one God in Zoroastrianism. Mageans also never have been associated with Dasatir and Avista, the holy scriptures of Parsiis.

I would like to reply to other arguments in your last post...but time is not on my side...i have to go back to work now...c ya later;)

Peace:)
 
Nahiz

-- Qur 9:30 "Jews said: Uzayr is son of God!
Christians said: The Messiah is son of God!..."
Search the beliefs of the Jews and search the Bible, you won't find such a thing that Uzayr is son of God. Remember that Jews are as strict monotheists as Muslims.

-- The molding and animation of a man-like statue from mud or clay by a deity or a sorcerer, is an age-old myth that was taken up by the Bible and the Quran.
Science shows that man has not appeared from a piece of clay.

-- Qur 86:6-7 "[Man] has been created from spilled(?) water (=semen), issueing from between the kidney (or back) area and the ribs".
Everybody knows sperm comes from the testicles.

-- History doesn't know of Moses and a pharaoh drowning with his army in the Red Sea. It is strange that the Quran doesn't give the name of the pharaoh. If you know of an history book about Egypt that mentions the corresponding Egyptian documents just tell me.

-- How come man-made legends are in the Quran if it is supposedly from God ? The Sleepers in the Cave is an old Mediterranean folklore story taken up by the Greek, then by Christians.
-- The story of Dhul Qarnayn is a rewrite of the Legend of Alexander from Greek and Christian authors.

It is sure that any Dick, Tom and Harry can have my (uncomplete) list but saying that won't make it disappear.

The Zoroastrian priests were the magi (magus in the singular). Today's last Zoroastrians, the Parsees of India, call their priests mobeds which is derived from magi.
The fire is not worshipped by Zoroastrian, but it symbolizes the power of God.
Zoroastrianism is not a true monotheism as it has dualistic features. That religion has influenced Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
 
mansio said:
Zoroastrianism is not a true monotheism as it has dualistic features. That religion has influenced Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

Some think that it was Zoroaster that introduced Satan into the Jewish faith. Some say it was Zoroaster himself who was influenced by the Satan concept that may already have been in the Jewish faith.

This is a passage in Isaiah that is believed to have referred to Satan. Isaiah was a prophet who lived from 760 BC to about 690 BC. He died at least 50 years before Zoroaster was even born!!!

How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!
You said in your heart,

"I will ascend to heaven.
I will raise my throne above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain.
I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High."
Isaiah 14:12-13

My encyclopedia tells me that the first 39 chapters were regarded as being written by Isaiah himself, while the later chapters 40-66 were regarded as having come from other sources. This passage comes from Chapter 14, which is within the first section.

If chapter 14 was indeed written by Isaiah himself and this was a reference to Satan, then it means that the Satan concept already existed in the Jewish faith.

I also think it strange that if Zoroaster introduced the Satan concept into the Jewish faith, why are Judaism and Zoroastrianism so dissimilar in their concepts of this devilish force of evil? This passage in Isaiah portrays Satan as an originally incorrupt angel that becomes ambitious and arrogant, imagines himself having a lot of power, rebels against God and then has a terrible downfall. God Himself is infinitely more powerful than him.

The Zoroastrian embodiment of evil, on the other hand, is a god of evil and is behind all the forces of evil. He is not an angel, but an uncreated god.

My view is that just because two religions have a very similar concept doesn't mean one influenced the other. They just happened to come up with the same ideas.

Take for example Harry Potter. The story even of a child on a broomstick is not new. It may actually be quite common. If someone else comes up with another story of a child on a broomstick, that doesn't mean he/she has copied or even been influenced by the author that writes Harry Potter. The two authors write what suits their taste and their work is their professional pride.

The idea of a child on a broomstick is a very simple concept that two people can come up with independently because it is inherently very simple. They may, however, come up with their own variations.

Similarly, a being that is an embodiment of evil is a very simple concept and you cannot simply say that one copied the other just because one of the two people who came up an idea using this simple concept copied the other just because one of them came up with it first.

One must be objective when looking at this Jewish-Zoroastrian situation and not try and look for reasons why the Jews didn't come up with it first, like "Isaiah was really written centuries later."

Sure, we shouldn't assume the Jewish idea came first, but on the other hand we shouldn't assume that just because only some parts of Isaiah were written by Isaiah himself that chapter 14 was not written by him -- and that it necessarily came centuries later. Even if Zoroaster did come up with it first, that doesn't mean Judaism borrowed from it. The embodiment of evil is still a very simple concept that anyone can come up with independently.

They simply come up with variations of it that may be totally different.
 
mansio said:
Zoroastrianism is not a true monotheism as it has dualistic features. That religion has influenced Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

Some think that it was Zoroaster that introduced Satan into the Jewish faith. Some say it was Zoroaster himself who was influenced by the Satan concept that may already have been in the Jewish faith.

This is a passage in Isaiah that is believed to have referred to Satan. Isaiah was a prophet who lived from 760 BC to about 690 BC. He died at least 50 years before Zoroaster was even born!!!

How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!
You said in your heart,

"I will ascend to heaven.
I will raise my throne above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain.
I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High."
Isaiah 14:12-13

My encyclopedia tells me that the first 39 chapters were regarded as being written by Isaiah himself, while the later chapters 40-66 were regarded as having come from other sources. This passage comes from Chapter 14, which is within the first section.

If chapter 14 was indeed written by Isaiah himself and this was a reference to Satan, then it means that the Satan concept already existed in the Jewish faith.

I also think it strange that if Zoroaster introduced the Satan concept into the Jewish faith, why are Judaism and Zoroastrianism so dissimilar in their concepts of this devilish force of evil? This passage in Isaiah portrays Satan as an originally incorrupt angel that becomes ambitious and arrogant, imagines himself having a lot of power, rebels against God and then has a terrible downfall. God Himself is infinitely more powerful than him.

The Zoroastrian embodiment of evil, on the other hand, is a god of evil and is behind all the forces of evil. He is not an angel, but an uncreated god.

My view is that just because two religions have a very similar concept doesn't mean one influenced the other. They just happened to come up with the same ideas.

Take for example Harry Potter. The story even of a child on a broomstick is not new. It may actually be quite common. If someone else comes up with another story of a child on a broomstick, that doesn't mean he/she has copied or even been influenced by the author that writes Harry Potter. The two authors write what suits their taste and their work is their professional pride.

The idea of a child on a broomstick is a very simple concept that two people can come up with independently because it is inherently very simple. They may, however, come up with their own variations.

Similarly, a being that is an embodiment of evil is a very simple concept and you cannot simply say that one copied the other just because one of the two people who came up an idea using this simple concept copied the other just because one of them came up with it first.

One must be objective when looking at this Jewish-Zoroastrian situation and not try and look for reasons why the Jews didn't come up with it first, like "Isaiah was really written centuries later."

Sure, we shouldn't assume the Jewish idea came first, but on the other hand we shouldn't assume that just because only some parts of Isaiah were written by Isaiah himself that chapter 14 was not written by him -- and that it necessarily came centuries later. Even if Zoroaster did come up with it first, that doesn't mean Judaism borrowed from it. The embodiment of evil is still a very simple concept that anyone can come up with independently.

They simply come up with variations of it that may be totally different.
 
Peace to all....

by mansio…

The Zoroastrian priests were the magi (magus in the singular). Today's last Zoroastrians, the Parsees of India, call their priests mobeds which is derived from magi.

The fire is not worshipped by Zoroastrian, but it symbolizes the power of God.

Zoroastrianism is not a true monotheism as it has dualistic features. That religion has influenced Judaism, Christianity and Islam.





I would like to know which source did you refer to on the above statement. Especially the one regarding Zoroastrianism for not being a true monotheism with dualistic features. Also in what influenced did it had on the 3 major Faiths.

Anyway I would like to share with you some reference that I have on the concept of God in Zoroastrianism according to Dasatir. According to dasatir, Ahura Mazda has the following qualities:



i) He is One

ii) Nothing resembles Him

iii) He is without origin or end

iv) Without a body or form

v) Neither the eye can behold Him, nor the power of thinking can conceive Him.

vi) He is above all you can imagine of

vii) He is nearer to you thanyour own self.



Qualities of God according to Avesta, in the Gathas and the Yasna:



i) Creator (Yasna 31:7 & 11, 44:17, 50:11, 51:7 )

ii) Most Mighty – the Greatest ( Yasna 33:11, 45:6 )

iii) Beneficient – ‘Hudai’ ( Yasna 33:11, 48:3 )

iv) Bountiful – ‘Spenta’ (Yasna 43:4,5,7,9,11,13,15, 44:2, 45:5, 46:9, 48:3 )



(sorry, currently I dun have any good, exact text & translation of these holy scriptures, still looking for a reliable soft copy )
In these reference, the Zoroastrian seems to be very much monotheistic.
God willing i'll try to answer your doubts....i've been quite busy lately. my time management is terrible...any tips to share?:)

Peace....
 
Last edited:
Peace to mansio and all....

I manage to allocate some time to write on this. Hope this could help u...

-- Qur 9:30 "Jews said: Uzayr is son of God!

Christians said: The Messiah is son of God!..."

Search the beliefs of the Jews and search the Bible, you won't find such a thing that Uzayr is son of God. Remember that Jews are as strict monotheists as Muslims.




Full text...

" The Jews call Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah.s curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!" Quran 9:30



If you read the next verse from the same surah 9:31



"They ( the Jews) take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords** in derogation of Allah, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary; yet they were commanded to worship but One Allah. there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him: (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him)."



** "to be their lords" here literally means to blindly obey the teachings of their priests and anchorites eventhough their priests and anchorites commands them to do sinful things and forbid what has been permitted by Allah.
It is understandable when we read both of these verses, Allah condemned the Jews for calling Uzair (Ezra) the son of Allah.


Yes, Judaism is strictly monotheistic. The Jews are accused for associating Allah with Uzair is not based on the teachings of Judaism but based on what the Jews have committed. The Old Testament have gone through a lot of modification since the time of King Jeraboam who ruled the northern Kingdom of Israel from 786 - 746 BC. King Jeraboam even changed the way his people worship God. Due to tribal hostilities and wars between the northen Kingdom of Israel and the Southern Kingdom of Judah, King Jeraboam saw a need for him to get hold of his people by altering the holy book.

Peace...:)
 
As-salaamu 3alayka Nahiz

I should have said that Zoroastrianism has sometimes evolved between monotheism and dualism, the fight between the Lord of good Ahura Mazda and the Lord of evil Angra Mayniu. Manicheanism has drawn dualism, its main feature, from Zoroastrianism.
The main theological problem that monotheist religions have to address is the problem of the existence of evil.
If God is perfect evil cannot come from him. If evil comes from him he is not perfect. So the temptation is great to attribute evil to another god, which would be dualism.

You make a mistake with 9:31. Those who took their scholars, their monks and the Messiah as lords are the Christians, not the Jews.
You don't show me where in the Bible is written that Jews took Uzayr as son of God because such verses do not exist.
The usual excuse that the Bible has been corrupted must first of all be proven.

How about addressing my few other arguments from my last message?
 
Peace to mansio...

I should have said that Zoroastrianism has sometimes evolved between monotheism and dualism, the fight between the Lord of good Ahura Mazda and the Lord of evil Angra Mayniu. Manicheanism has drawn dualism, its main feature, from Zoroastrianism.

Will you show me the source of that...coz i have limitedd sources on zoroastrianism (reliable sources)..thanx

The main theological problem that monotheist religions have to address is the problem of the existence of evil.
If God is perfect evil cannot come from him. If evil comes from him he is not perfect. So the temptation is great to attribute evil to another god, which would be dualism.

I think saltmeister have answered your question already. He/she did make a good point with the Harry potter example. It is a very simple concept. God has made everything in pairs; young-old, happy-sad, male-female, good-bad,..and the list goes on...

You make a mistake with 9:31. Those who took their scholars, their monks and the Messiah as lords are the Christians, not the Jews.
You don't show me where in the Bible is written that Jews took Uzayr as son of God because such verses do not exist.

I apologise,..my mistake.
But it is also a fact the Jews before Christianity have been astrayed in some aspects by their priests during the time of Kingdom of Israel. Example is the building of the two temples to worship golden calves by King Jeraboam. One temple in Dan and the other in Bethel. King Jeraboam also appointed priests from non-levites to the fuction of the altar of the calf. The pious priests from the levi family didn't have place in King Jeraboam new religious structure.

The usual excuse that the Bible has been corrupted must first of all be proven.

It can be prooven..but not here. It would be out of topic, wouldn't it...:rolleyes:

Peace...
 
Peace to mansio all...as promised

-- Qur 86:6-7 "[Man] has been created from spilled(?) water (=semen), issueing from between the kidney (or back) area and the ribs".Everybody knows sperm comes from the testicles.





“He is created from a drop emitted-“ 86:6

In Arabic: “ Khuliqa mimmaa innda fiq’ ”

“Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs:” 86:7

In Arabic: “ Yagh rujumimm bainish shulbi wat’ Taraa’ib”



The word “drop” here refers to semen as you already know. Semen or sperm is a fluid that contains spermatozoa. Semen consists of two parts, the cellular part (spermatozoa / sperm cells) and noncellular part (seminal plasma / sperm fluid).



Referring to other verses in the Quran, sperm is known as “nutfah”…e.g :



“He has created man from a sperm-drop; and behold this same (man) becomes an open disputer!” 16:4

In Arabic:” Khalaqal insaanu min nutfatin fa’izaa huwaa khasii mum mubiin”



“Then We placed him as (a drop of) sperm in a place of rest, firmly fixed;” 23:13

In Arabic: “ Tsumma ja’alnaa hu nutfataan fiiqaraa rimmakiin”



“Verily We created Man from a drop of mingled sperm, in order to try him: So We gave him (the gifts), of Hearing and Sight.” 76:2

In Arabic: “ Innal khalaq’nal insaana min nutfatinn amsyaa jinnab’taliihi faja’alnaa hu sami’amm bashhiira”



“From a sperm-drop: He hath created him, and then mouldeth him in due proportions;” 80:19

In Arabic: “ Min nutfatin khalaqohuu faqoddarah”



It’s clear that sperm or to be more specific spermatozoa is known as “nutfah” in Arabic.

The “drop” that emitted from the backbone and ribs is not sperm cell because the word “mimma” was used instead of “nutfah”. The word “mimma” in 86:6, could be referring to seminal plasma (semen fluid) not spermatozoa. Wallaahualam, Allah knows best….



Peace...:)
 
Peace to mansio and all...

-- History doesn't know of Moses and a pharaoh drowning with his army in the Red Sea. It is strange that the Quran doesn't give the name of the pharaoh. If you know of an history book about Egypt that mentions the corresponding Egyptian documents just tell me.





The Quran didn’t mention in detail which pharaoh ruled ancient Egypt in the time of Moses. But actually it is told in the Quran, not by name but by important event that happened.



“Said the chiefs of Pharaoh's people: "Wilt thou leave Moses and his people, to spread mischief in the land, and to abandon thee and thy gods?" He (pharaoh) said: "Their male children will we slay; (only) their females will we save alive; and we have over them (power) irresistible." 7:127



“And remember We rescued you from Pharaoh's people, who afflicted you with the worst of penalties, who slew your male children and saved alive your females: in that was a momentous trial from your Lord.” 7:141



Both of the verses above mentioned one similar event. The pharaoh who ruled ancient Egypt at that time carried out a mass murder on male children / babies of the Jews. If we flip through history books on ancient Egypt, there is a record of one ruthless pharaoh who mass kill male babies and his name was Ramses II. The Bibllical source also approves this. Ramses II died while Moses was in refuge in Madyan. Ramses II was succeeded by his son Merneptah.



In 1975, Dr. Maurice Bucaille with other doctors received permission to examine the mummy of Merneptah, the findings of which proved that Merneptah probably died from drowning or a violent shock which immediately preceded the moment of drowning. The medical study of the mummy of Merneptah has yielded further useful information on the possible nauseas of this Pharaoh's death. The study also discovered salt composites found in the mummy’s lung tissue.



What is important to note here is that the Qur’an gives an additional piece of information in Surah Yunus (Jonah) chapter 10 verse 92.

“This day shall We save thee in the body, that thou mayest be a sign to those who come after thee! but verily, many among mankind are heedless of Our Signs! ” 10:92



Thus the Qur’anic verse, that “We save thee in the body, that thou mayest be a sign to those who come after thee”, has been fulfilled by the pharaoh’s body being kept at the Royal Mummies’ room in the EgyptianMuseum in Cairo.



Peace....:)
 
-- How come man-made legends are in the Quran if it is supposedly from God ? The Sleepers in the Cave is an old Mediterranean folklore story taken up by the Greek, then by Christians.

The seven sleepers were a group of youths who lived during the period of King Decius’s reign. Some where between 249-251 A.D, King Decius went to Ephesus in Turkey to enforce his law on the Believers. The story of the seven sleepers took place long after the Greek civilization. May I know which source did u refer to that say the seven sleepers is a Mediterranean folklore taken up by the Greeks? It is not a man-made legend. It is a true story and evidence of the event can be seen till this very moment. The cave where they have slept for 309 years is now a tourist spot.


Peace...:)
 
Peace to all...

-- The story of Dhul Qarnayn is a rewrite of the Legend of Alexander from Greek and Christian authors.

There is no mention in the Qur’aan of how long Dhu’l-Qarnayn (Alexander) lived, or of the era in which he lived.

Dhu’l-Qarnayn who is mentioned in the Qur’aan is not Alexander the Macedonian or Greek who built Alexandria. This Alexander is the one who died at the age of 33, as mentioned in the Christian books. Alexander of Macedonia lived 323 years before the birth of the Jesus Peace Be Upon Him.

Dhu’l-Qarnayn who is mentioned in the Qur’aan lived at the time of Ibraaheem (peace be upon him), and it is said that he became Muslim at the hands of Ibraaheem (peace be upon him), and he went on pilgrimage to the Ka’bah walking. The scholars differed concerning him, as to whether he was a Prophet or a righteous slave and just king, but they agree that he was a Muslim, a monotheist (believer in Tawheed) and one who was obedient to Allaah.

The correct view is to refrain from stating what he was, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “I do not know whether Tubba’ was a Prophet or not, an do not know whether Dhu’l-Qarnayn was a Prophet or not.”

(Narrated by al-Haakim and al-Bayhaqi; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Jaami’, no. 5524).

The difference between this righteous slave, and the Macedonian Alexander who was a kaafir, is well known to Muslim scholars.

Below is an article on this matter…I hope this could be a help to your benefit in search of the truth about Dhul-Qarnayn.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/4229/aldtg.html

Why Zul-Qarnain of the Qur’an is not Alexander the great?

By Khalid Jan



Popular opinion amongst the Muslims and quite recently, within the mainstream evangelical Christians identify Zul-Qarnian (of the Qur’an) with Alexander the great. This claim, in the light of history needs to be analysed while keeping in view the sublime story of Zul-Qarnain found in chapter 18 of the Qur’an. Before we initiate a point-by-point examination of whatever data available on hand, we must bear in mind that Qur’an does not mention the title "Alexander the great," but rather Zul-Qarnain (two-horned one) which may also mean "period or century." (1) In addition, "who was he? In what age and where did he live? The Qur’an gives us no material on which we can base a positive answer." (2)

Evidence_1:

The story of Zul-Qarnain begins in the Qur’an with: "And they ask you about Zul-Qarnain. Say: 'I shall recite to you something of his story.' Verily, We established him in the earth, and We gave him the means of everything." [v83-v84] The most important point made in verse 84 is that Allah endowed upon Zul-Qarnain the worldly power and prestige to enable him to rule justly. If a man of God is under the divine protection, then naturally, under no circumstances, the forces of evil can overpower him. Let us now see if, from the following historical record of Alexander the great, we recognise Zul-Qarnain of the Qur’an: Alexander: "Hearing of the river Indus, ...drove the army eastward across the Hindu Kush (327 B.C.). His army had understood the need to consolidate all the Persian dominion, but believed this new venture to be a madman’s act. Actually, Alexander thought that he was entering the last peninsula of the earth: that beyond it lay the Ocean of the East. He reached the Indus with a growing following, a moving state of allied peoples and their families, while his remaining Macedonians laid down pontoon bridges, shored up roads over immense ranges, and fought battles when necessary. Passing from the friendly country around Taxila (near Attock), they encountered the hostile Paurava rajah at the JhelumRiver where the Macedonian infantry had to fight against armoured elephants for the first time. Alexander and his spearhead could not approach the elephants, which terrified the horses. This shook the Macedonian veterans who mutinied en masse at the river Ravi. Deeply angered, because he believed the end of the land lay not far off, at Ocean, Alexander was obliged to retreat (326 B.C.)." (3)

From the above narrative, we can easily observe that Alexander’s army considered this new venture to be a madman’s act and running away from the battleground upon seeing elephants in the enemy’s army. Both of these acts are in clear opposition to the verse 84 where Zul-Qarnain is given the utmost power: "Verily, We established him in the earth, and We gave him the means of everything." When a man of God is given the power to rule justly upon the earth, he’s also sustained by his followers who are ready and willing to follow their leader, and sacrifice themselves for the sake of God. No hardship, calamity or force can play any role against them. But, unfortunately, Alexander’s cowardly actions, such as becoming angry just because he was unable to fight Paurava Raja’s ((a Rajah) belonging to, or descended from Puru, a king of Lunar Dynasty) (4) army which consisted of elephants do not match that of a man of God.

Evidence_2:

Zul-Qarnain was indeed a believer in monotheism. In one of his voyages, as described in the Qur’an, he found some people, and said to them: "as for him who believes in (Allah’s Oneness) and works righteousness, he shall have the best reward (Paradise), and we (Zul-Qarnain) shall speak unto him mild words." [v87] On the other hand, we do not find Alexander being a believer in the Oneness of God, as the following record demonstrates it: "Alexander eagerly assimilated the religious mysticism of the Nile and of Magian Persia. Not only did he protect these religions, but also as a sole ruler, he necessarily assumed the semidivine aspect of an Asian despot, wearing Persian attire at ceremonies and accepting prostration in his presence."(5) Furthermore, "Alexander’s greatest work was the spread of Greek influence..." (6) The comparison so clearly separates Alexander from Zul-Qarnain that no further explanation is needed.

Evidence_3:

In Zul-Qarnain’s third voyage, he found a habitation between two mountains whose people asked for his help against the aggression of Gog and Magog - for which they were going to pay him a tribute. And in the words of the Qur’an, Zul-Qarnain replied to them: "(the power) in which My Lord has established me Is better (than tribute.)" [v95] The manner in which Zul-Qarnain responded, is a testimony in itself that he had no interest in the material gain of this world. His mission endorsed by God was to be just and kind to oppressed, and harsh with those who inflict hardship upon the helpless. In contrast, when we analyse Alexander in similar capacity, we get a picture opposite to what has been cited above for Zul-Qarnain: "In Susa and Persepolis his (Alexander’s) headlong pursuit won him the imperial treasure of some 180,000 talents in bullion and coin - so fabulous an amount that he demonetised the gold to equate it with the smaller Graeco-Macedonian silver coinage," (7) and "at Damascus the Persian army’s treasure and supply train were captured, giving Alexander wealth for the first time." (8) From these two historical records, can we picture Zul-Qarnain as he is depicted in the above Qur’anic verse? Obviously not!

Evidence_4:

So far, it has been established that Zul-Qarnain of the Qur’an was a believer in the Oneness of God. In the case of Alexander the great, following few historical accounts further confirm that he was not a monotheist:

"In the spring of 331 Alexander made a pilgrimage to the great temple and oracle of Amon-Ra, Egyptian god of the sun, whom the Greeks identified with Zeus. The earlier Egyptian pharaohs were believed to be sons of Amon-Ra; and Alexander, the new ruler of Egypt, wanted the god to acknowledge him as his son. The pilgrimage apparently was successful, and it may have confirmed in him a belief in his own divine origin." (9)

"Shortly before he died, Alexander ordered the Greek cities to worship him as a god. Although he probably gave the order for political reasons, he was, in his own view and that of his contemporaries, of divine birth." (9)

Conclusion:

In the days gone by, access and availability to social, academic and scientific knowledge was either limited or non-existent. People of learning used to base their opinions on whatever information was on hand. There were also those who accepted matters as conclusive without having first analysed it from all the different angles. In the case of those Muslim commentators on the Holy Qur’an who identify Zul-Qarnain with Alexander the great, we simply cannot blame them for their erroneous interpretation. The time-domain they lived in and the resources available to them, they, accordingly, explained the Qur’anic text to the best of their ability. Despite the fact that they were all sincere and good hearted scholars, they were bound to incorporate within their work certain cultural elements of which they were part of: "no other man has been claimed - in legends - by so many nations. Egyptian fable makes him god. Arabo-Persian tradition represents Is-kander as a hero-saint." (10) The only common factor on which these scholars based their opinions is the expeditions carried by Alexander and Zul_Qarnain. Other than this, there are hardly any other characteristics that are common in both.

References:



  1. Cyril Classe, The Concise Encyclopaedia of Islam, Harper & Row, 1989, p_32
  2. Yusuf Ali, The Holy Qur’an, note 2428
  3. Encyclopaedia Americana, Volume 1, p_540
  4. Margaret & James Stutly, A dictionary of Hinduism, Ronledge & Kegan Paul, 1977
  5. Encyclopaedia Americana, Volume 1, p_540
  6. Encyclopaedia of Religion & Ethics, Volume 1, p_307
  7. Encyclopaedia Americana, Volume 1, p_540
  8. Ibid., p_539
  9. Funk & Wagnalls Encyclopaedia, CDROM ver, by future vision multimedia inc., 1995 INFOPEDIA
  10. Encyclopaedia Americana, Volume 1, p_540
Peace....:)
 
Nahiz

To have information on Zoroastrianism and Zoroaster you read history books or you Google on those two names as you already know.

I like your word "reliable" which is typically Muslim. Every knowledge in the world is reliable except when it contradicts the Quran. Then it is no longer reliable.

I haven't answered Saltmeiter's message yet . If you agree with him it means that you accept that God has created evil. At least the problem of introducing dualism or not is solved.

I understand that you can't prove yet that the Jews considered Uzayr as son of God.

Nutfa has nothing to do with spermatozoa. It means drop or semen.

"Mimma" (from what) in verse 86:5 refers to "maa'in daafiqin" (spilled water) in verse 6. There's no "nutfa" around.

In which history book did you hear about a pharaoh carrying out a mass killing of Jewish/Israelite children ?
Where are the historical proofs of the sojourn of a huge number of Israelites in Egypt, of the existence of Moses and of a crossing of the Red Sea ?

Pharaoh Merneptah I, one of the numerous sons of Ramses II, states on a stela at his tomb that he subdued Israel during his campaign in Palestine. How could he have done that if he was supposedly killed before ?
 
Nahiz

The Seven Sleepers legend refers to the frequent theme in folklore about a hero who, after a long magical sleep, wakes up in a changed society.
You don't need to be God to devise such a story. Or is God just as smart as men ?
The legend has nothing to do with Islam (except the borrowing) since the seven youths were Christians.
In Cyprus people show you the place where Venus was born. Does it mean Venus existed ? Don't be naive. There are at least three different places in Turkey where the Seven Sleepers are supposed to have slept.

We all know that Dhu l-Qarnayn isn't the historical Alexander the Great.
He is the Alexander from the legends about Alexander the Great.
 
Peace to all...

To have information on Zoroastrianism and Zoroaster you read history books or you Google on those two names as you already know.

I like your word "reliable" which is typically Muslim. Every knowledge in the world is reliable except when it contradicts the Quran. Then it is no longer reliable.

Typically Muslim?!...hold on there. What i meant by "a reliable source" is something which is in total acceptance by zoroasters themselves. I can get tons of info through google, but is it in accordance with the zoroasters faith? There are many fabricated source on the net. The best thing for us is just to be aware and don't depend on just one source.
So far i haven't found any good source. The best source if you want to know about zoroastrianism is a zoroastrian himself...at least a faithful one. I know there are some in this room.

Please don't accuse me for being "typically Muslim"...if i was to look for info on ancient Greeks belief for a project paper, which we know the ancient Greeks are polytheistic and that clearly contradicts the Quran. Does that mean as a Muslim i have to reject the facts about the Greeks belief? Surely i will fail my project paper. I can get thousands of info on the net or books but the question is I still have to get the most reliable one. Reliable as in accurate, exact as how it has existed...That will help me get an 'A'....what i'am trying to express here is i asses and evaluate information based on its' factuality and reliability.

I haven't answered Saltmeiter's message yet . If you agree with him it means that you accept that God has created evil. At least the problem of introducing dualism or not is solved
.

Saltmeister's xplanation is simple and straight to the ponint. I believe God created everything....good-evil, rich-poor, beautiful-ugly, heaven - hell....The way i see it, God create all this is to test us, to see who are the believers and who are the disbelievers. God shows us two roads, the righteous path and the evil path. He'd given us the notion which path is the best for us and which is not. He'd even told us what we'll get at the end of each path. It is up to us to choose the right path for ourselves. Mankind can think...they have brains, wits, intelligence, wisdom etc etc....its not hard for mankind to identify which is the righteous path and which is not

Nutfa has nothing to do with spermatozoa. It means drop or semen.

"Mimma" (from what) in verse 86:5 refers to "maa'in daafiqin" (spilled water) in verse 6. There's no "nutfa" around.
My point was to show you that 86:6 did't refer to sperm as in spermatozoa. If the verse was pointing to spermatozoa, Allah would have used the word "nutfah" just like in other verses, not mimma. That is why i give references to other verses in Quran which literally points to spermatozoa. That is also why i gave some additional info on composition of semen; cellular and non celluar (fluid)....Allah knows best..

In which history book did you hear about a pharaoh carrying out a mass killing of Jewish/Israelite children ?
Where are the historical proofs of the sojourn of a huge number of Israelites in Egypt, of the existence of Moses and of a crossing of the Red Sea ?

you could look up on the net...there's a lot of site regarding ramsesII and the killing of israelite babies. My book source, i refered to a book by Muhammad Ali Shahbuni, titled; "kemuliaan para nabi" (The prophets virtuousness). I don't know wether any translation available in English and/or on the net.
You can also refer to Dr. Maurice Bucaille books
1) The origin of man
2) The Bible, Quran and science
3)
The Bible, Quran and science: The holy scriptures examined in the light of modern knowledge
4)
[font=&quot] Moïse et Pharaon: Les Hébreux en Egypte : quelles concordances des livres saints avec l'histoire?

[/font]
The Seven Sleepers legend refers to the frequent theme in folklore about a hero who, after a long magical sleep, wakes up in a changed society.
You don't need to be God to devise such a story. Or is God just as smart as men ?

Doesnt mean that if there is a similar folklore, the events in the Quran or Bible derives from it. There are many tales and myths of brave heros and warriors have conversations with God or Gods..but does it mean that the event where Moses spoke to God on mount Thursina is a myth too. U can't compare the validity of events recorded in the Quran or Bible with myths and folklore. It doesn't work like that.

The legend has nothing to do with Islam (except the borrowing) since the seven youths were Christians.
In Cyprus people show you the place where Venus was born. Does it mean Venus existed ? Don't be naive. There are at least three different places in Turkey where the Seven Sleepers are supposed to have slept.
[font=&quot]
The Torah, Gospel and Quran came from the same source, Allah (God) Almighty. That is why there are some similar events recorded in them. There is no borrowing as the Author is the same.
Yes, the sleepers are followers of the teaching's of Jesus, and the folowers of Jesus are believers. Muslims are believers of Jesus too. No Muslim is a Muslim if he/she doesn't accept Jesus as a Messenger of God....not just Jesus but Moses, John,Jacob, Isaac, Job, Aron, Zachariya etc etc....
I didn't refer to the place in Cyprus but in Ephesus, Turkey....
which source did you refer to that say there was at least three places in Turkey? as far as i know there is only one.

Peace....:)
[/font]
 
Nahiz

I repeat that I don't see any connection between nutfa and spermatozoa in the Quran. Nutfa means drop and is used for a drop of semen. Nowhere does it point to spermatozoa.

The internet sites about Ramses remind that he is supposed to be the pharaoh of the Bible. They don't say it is a real fact.
Dr Bucaille isn't an historian. I'm a Frenchman myself and have never heard of him except on Muslim sites or in Muslim bookstores.

The Seven Sleepers from the legend were Christians (who think Jesus is divine and part of God, otherwise they wouldn't be Christians).
 
Peace to mansio and all...

I repeat that I don't see any connection between nutfa and spermatozoa in the Quran. Nutfa means drop and is used for a
drop of semen. Nowhere does it point to spermatozoa.

Notice the word sperm is used in the English translation referring to "nutfah" in 16:4, 23:13, 76:2, 80:19
...and then refer back to the english translation of 86:6, the word "mimma" is used which meant "drops emitted".
Notice that the english word sperm is not used in 86:6 In Malay language nutfah is translated into "benih" or "mani". I think this probelm is only due to linguistic problems only. The Quran is translated into many different languages and each language has a few translators. Example:

They ask thee concerning Zul-qarnain Say, "I will rehearse to you something of his story."18:83-translated by Yusuf Ali

They will ask thee of Dhu'l-Qarneyn. Say: I shall recite unto you a remembrance of him."18:83-translated by M.Pickthall

Here we can see the sentence structure is the same, but the words used in it differs one or two. But the most important aspect is the meaning delivered by these two translators is the same. That is why the original(Arabic) language of the Quran is preserved so any translation or grammatical problems can be referred to the original text.

The internet sites about Ramses remind that he is supposed to be the pharaoh of the Bible. They don't say it is a real
fact.
Dr Bucaille isn't an historian. I'm a Frenchman myself and have never heard of him except on Muslim sites or in Muslim
bookstores.

If you want to get the real facts on Ramses II genocide on hebrew babies and Merneptah, maybe you want to consider referring to the hieroglyphs and the wall paintings. But i think referring to books written by a doctor who'd examine Merneptah mummie is sufficient enough, eventhough he's not a historian. To examine a mummie it doesn't take a historian but a doctor or archeologist who has in depth knowledge in this field. Don't judge a book by the writers' belief. And also it doesn't take the book to be sold in big book stores to define its' validity. Dr.Bucaille embraced Islam after his findings on the consistency of Quran with the facts of historical evidence. As far as i know, no other doctors or historian or archeologist have examined the mummie of Merneptah.

Peace..
 
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