BruceDLimber
Baha'i
lunamoth said:So anyway, I don't stand a chance here.
Most interesting that you conclude this and yet continue posting here nonstop....
Bruce
lunamoth said:So anyway, I don't stand a chance here.
lunamothAre Paul's epistles authoritative for Baha'is?[/QUOTE said:As earlier scripture that may now have been superseded by newer Revelation, yes!
Peace,
Bruce
lunamoth said:I was living quite peacefully here at CR until a barage of Baha'i showed up . . .
Interfaith dialogue? That requires an openness to learning about another's beliefs, not telling them that you understand it all better and have all the answers.
lunamoth said:PrimaVera said:Actually, that's precisely the passage I had in mind. Now, consider the implications of the text you highlighted. If one is not living in the spirit, is one under the law?/QUOTE]
Are Paul's epistles authoritative for Baha'is?
One is not under the Mosaic Law, though one should follow the Mosaic Law.
But Baha`i's are under the Law of the Aqdas, not the Torah.
Regards,
Scott
lunamoth said:Are you a perfect Baha'i? Do you follow all the laws perfectly?
I don't normally go for bludgeoning others with scripture, but since we are playing by fundamentalist rules, of course we can.
So you accept Paul's epistles, or even just Galatians, as authoritative for Baha'is?
While we are at it, exactly where in the Aqdas does Baha'u'llah say that the penalty for homosexual relationships is exclusion from the community.
Thanks,
lunamoth
PrimaVera said:lunamoth said:I'm not trying to callenge your beliefs. I just don't understand them. Repeatedly trying to justify your beliefs doesn't help me to understand them.
Hi Primavera,
That is becasue the only understadning you will accept is your own.
peace,
lunamoth
BruceDLimber said:L>While we are at it, exactly where in the Aqdas does Baha'u'llah say that the penalty for homosexual relationships is exclusion from the community?
As I trust you're well aware, Baha'u'llah (and 'Abdu'l-Baha after Him) each delegated interpretive authority to a specific individual, and Shoghi Effendi (for one) made this rule quite clear, as was his right and duty.
Peace,
Bruce
BruceDLimber said:Most interesting that you conclude this and yet continue posting here nonstop....
Bruce
BruceDLimber said:As earlier scripture that may now have been superseded by newer Revelation, yes!
Peace,
Bruce
BruceDLimber said:I would also humbly suggest that it rquires a more open and positive attitude than nonstop attack on a given religion such as the Baha'i Faith (whicih is frankly all I can remember seeing from you).
Dear Kettle,
You're black.
Love, Pot
Perhaps we can all try a friendlier approach?
Peace,
Bruce
Popeyesays said:lunamoth said:One is not under the Mosaic Law, though one should follow the Mosaic Law.
But Baha`i's are under the Law of the Aqdas, not the Torah.
Regards,
Scott
Scott, and Rick if you are reading, I appreciate your honest attempts at dialogue here. What you have posted is most worthy of consideration and polite discussion. I promise to return to this conversation when I can.
your friend,
Laurie
lunamoth said:Just call me a fool.![]()
lunamoth said:I'm doing you a favor, Bruce.
lunamoth said:You've been spoiling for the clash of ideas in every post with your "just the facts" and in your face style.
sara[h]ng said:I don't really understand the controversy with this. As with any group, the Baha'i Faith has the right to set it's own rules and see that the members of the group follow them. If someone does not like the rules it is their business, and their right and their obligation to leave said group. I understand that you have done this, Luna, and that's fine.
The Faith, again as with any group, has the right and obligation to insure, that if members of the group will not follow the group's rules, that the members leave.
You've made your beliefs known, both by leaving the Faith and by continued argument with the Baha'is here. You have your beliefs, they have theirs, and both need to be respected. There's no good reason to be upset about this.
- Sarah
arthra said:Lunamoth wrote:
I was living quite peacefully here at CR until a barage of Baha'i showed up to Blazen the Name of Baha'u'llah, telling everyone that they understand everyone else's religion better, that we all have our own religions wrong, we're all "inside a box", thousands of years of wisdom are written off as useless, problematic man-made dogma. It is proselytization, pure and simple. It may be presented in a gentle, obtuse manner, but it is clearly proselytization of the Baha'i Faith.
My comment:
Well I have noticed Luna moth that there's some hostility here but quite frankly I don't see Baha'is (or the "barage of Baha'is") doing what you suggest:
"that we all have our own religions wrong, we're all "inside a box", thousands of years of wisdom are written off as useless, problematic man-made dogma."
We had a topic on the principle of non-partisanship which got warped into "Baha'is and politics" and then which splintered off into any number of topics which well seemed to be presented and posed with somewhat of an "edge".
I really don't think Baha'is here are going around saying your religion is wrong...
It seems we are having difficulty discussing Baha'i topics on this Baha'i subject area without being accused of proselytizing. Why is that?
- Art
smkolins said:I think many people have sincere intentions on saying things close to their heart, but with no little talking past eachother, not infrequently hearing not eachother but echoes of every other time we dwelt on the issues and or heard others say things. I"ll be generous to assume I've been party to the problem even as I'm equally sure we've tried to free ourselves of the problem.
Despite who brings up the details of the problem, I do feel there is a repeated problem but haven't found the words to express it. Perhaps we are close to a resolution - darkest before the storm and all that. My own version of the idea is that one spends about as much time getting into a problem as out of it, and the stage where one becomes aware of the problem, even before doing anything about it, does not come at the begining of the solution but somewher midway or so.
For the fundamentalism to me is not in having quotes, but in assuming that one knows what they mean and can have no need to delve for meaning oneself but simply to use more words tell another what they obviously mean. On occasion I have seasoned conversations in various threads with quotes but most often because of a "that reminds me of" kinds of feeling - and out of respect for the scripture which I feel has a status beyond anything I have to say but still wish to understand.
Popeyesays said:The "Fruits of the Spirit" are best covered in the Epistles, in particular the Epistle to the Church of Galatia:
"5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
(He is of coursze, refering to the Mosaic Law)
5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
5:7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth? 5:8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.
5:9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
5:10 I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.
5:11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.
5:12 I would they were even cut off which trouble you.
5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
5:15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
5:26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.
6:3 For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.
6:4 But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.
6:5 For every man shall bear his own burden.
6:6 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.
6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
6:10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.
(King James Bible, Galatians)
Verses 10,11-13 (the first in blue above) to me speaks of those who choose to make trouble for the community through some kind of behavior which is not OF the community. Baha`i's are called upon to exercise judgement and justice in those circumstances.
Verses 19-25 fits in well with Baha`i Law. Again, Baha`i's are called upon to judge and work justice and given those tools by revelation.
As to the verses in red (6: 1-7), this is a very good description of the process of counseling, more counseling, warning, more warning and eventual removal of rights all for what purpose? Not to cast out, but to bring back.
"The general basis for the deprivation of voting rights is of course gross immorality and open opposition to the administrative functions of the Faith, and disregard for the laws of personal status; and even then it is the duty of the National Assembly, before exercising this sanction, to confer with the individuals involved in a loving manner to help them overcome the problems; second, to warn them that they must desist; three, to issue further warning if the original warnings are not followed; and finally, if there seems no other way to handle the matter, then a person may be deprived of voting rights.
"The Guardian however, wishes the National Assemblies to be very cautious in using this sanction, because it might be abused, and then lose its efficacy. It should be used only when there seems no other way to solve the problem."
(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 51)
Even a declared covenant breaker can come back to the faith if they are sincere.
Regards,
Scott