Abraham est. Mecca, the Qu'ran bids no-entry for non-Muslims yet Guru Nanak visited?

[Samuel Linton Boot]

Extract from the 'Critical Lives' book 'Muhammad' by Yahiya Emerick. (This is a good book by the way, from it one gains a sense of Muhammads (peace be upon him) wonderful, wise and compassionate yet human character.)

(Page 10)
"..Abraham built a large shrine near his family's well. He dedicated the valley to the worship of the one true God and asked his Lord to bless it and make it a place for all humanity to gather for prayer and pilgrimage. the bible mentions the great valley of Becca and the pigrimage in the book of Psalms:

"O Lord Almighty, my King and my God. Blessed are those who dwell in your house; they are ever praising you. Blessed are those whose strength is in you, who have set their hearts on pilgrimage. As they pass through the valley of Baca, they make it a place of springs; the autumn rains also cover it with pools." (Psalm 84:4-6)

....In time, a permanent settlement arose at this spot, and the valley of Becca became known as the city of Mecca.

(Page 280)
...new verses of the Qu'ran came that forbade the entry of any non-muslims to the holy precincts of Mecca. Forever more, mecca would be the sanctified shrine of Islam..."

So what if I as a member of 'all humanity' want to 'gather for prayer and pilgrimage' in Mecca? Do I have to convert to Islam or is there a looser definition of Muslim I can claim for myself, or can I simply put on a white robe and be a Muslim for the duration of the pilgrimage? Is this what Guru Nanak (peace be upon him) did ? How do Muslims regard Guru Nanakji today?

 

[n4h1z]

Peace to samuel...

So what if I as a member of 'all humanity' want to 'gather for prayer and pilgrimage' in Mecca? Do I have to convert to Islam or is there a looser definition of Muslim I can claim for myself, or can I simply put on a white robe and be a Muslim for the duration of the pilgrimage? Is this what Guru Nanak (peace be upon him) did ? How do Muslims regard Guru Nanakji today?

This is just a personal view ok...don't take it as the whole Moslems view.
First how do you define "all humanity". What does it believe in? What does the followers have faith in? What is their practice?
Whatever your answer is, if it leads to the conclusion of you saying "I bear witness there is no god but Allah (God in Arabic), and Muhammad is His messenger" then...nobody has no right to stop you from entering Makkah and Madinah. Makkah is a holy city also known as "Tanah Haram" (forbidden land) in my native tongue. This is because some of the things u can do back home is not permissible there.
Example: you can't simply uproot or destroy any plant without any reason to do so...etc etc
So, basically one has to be a moslem in order to enter the holy cities, Makkah and Madinah. If a non-Muslim was to sneak in and simply put a white robe...he may go unnoticed by anybody but he must remember that Allah the all-Knowing God, knows what everybody know not.

About Guru Nanak going to Makkah, i never heard about that b4. Maybe you can share some info and source with us...
As far as i know sikhism are monotheist and strictly against idol worshipping. They pray five times a day too (if i'am not mistaken). Guru Nanak is the last of the great 10 Gurus. And they live by the 5k's. What i know, Sikhism, somehow, is influenced by the teachings of Islam....

Peace...

 

[ma70]

Re: Abraham est. Mecca, the Qu'ran bids no-entry for non-Muslims yet Guru Nanak visit

Sorry for my lack of knowledge about Sikhism, but please correct me if am wrong...

didn't Sikhism emerge from Hinduism and Islam? and since Guru Nanak was the founder of Sikhism, maybe he was greatly influenced by Islam and thats why he wanted to perform pilgrimage.

Long time ago, there werent THAT many people coming from all around the world to perform pilgrimage. Now a day, its even hard for Muslims to perform the pilgrimage due to strict rules, let alone non muslims. Over 2 million people perform pilgrimage every year. Up to my knowledge, the Saudi government allows each person to perform pilgrimage once in every certain amount of years, for safety reasons (so it wont get over crowded). So basically, the priority is for Muslims amongst whom pilgrimage is a must.

As a result of that, i think that the only way for you to perform pilgrimage is to convert to Islam. Dont forget that pilgrimage isnt only the physical actions that one performs, but it actually involves much more prayer and belief "according to the Islamic teachings".

 

[Samuel Linton Boot]

Peace to 'n4h1z' and 'ma70'
Thanks for your responses. I do believe in this: "I bear witness there is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is His messenger" but I am not what people would usually call a Muslim.
Guru Nanak was the first of the ten Gurus of the Sikhs, they are monotheist and against idolatry. Nanak worked to promote harmony between Hindus and Muslims and Sikhism is often regarded as a blend of the two, indeed the 'Granth Sahib' contains the words of both Muslim and Hindu saints. Info. on Nanaks pilgrimage to Makkah can be found here.

http://www.ikonkar.com/sikhism/Sakis/god_is_everywhere.htm



http://www.urday.com/gurunanak.htm

 

[ma70]

Re: Abraham est. Mecca, the Qu'ran bids no-entry for non-Muslims yet Guru Nanak visit

If you believe that there is no god but God, then you should worship him in the way he prescribed. Also, if you believe that Muhammad is the prophet of God, then you should follow his teachings and way of worshipping God. If you do so, you are a Muslim. If you dont, you just admitted that you believed in something and chose not to follow it...

 

[mansio]

Re: Abraham est. Mecca, the Qu'ran bids no-entry for non-Muslims yet Guru Nanak visit

Baha'is believe that there is no god but God and that Muhammad is a prophet of God but they are not Muslims.

 

[ma70]

Re: Abraham est. Mecca, the Qu'ran bids no-entry for non-Muslims yet Guru Nanak visit

So in what sense do they believe in him? Or do they simply believe in him and ignore him?

 

[iBrian]

Re: Abraham est. Mecca, the Qu'ran bids no-entry for non-Muslims yet Guru Nanak visit

Baha'is believe in progressive revelation - ie, that what Mohammed taught then was true and right for Muslims then, but since the return of Baha'u'llah in the 19th century, the dictates of Islam have been superceded, along with most major religious movements.

As for Guru Nanak - I've certainly heard of his trying to reconcile Islam and Hinduism - not heard of the story about Mecca - a source on that story would be good, as it might make for an interesting read.

 

[InChristAlways]

Re: Abraham est. Mecca, the Qu'ran bids no-entry for non-Muslims yet Guru Nanak visit

"O Lord Almighty, my King and my God. Blessed are those who dwell in your house; they are ever praising you. Blessed are those whose strength is in you, who have set their hearts on pilgrimage. As they pass through the valley of Baca, they make it a place of springs; the autumn rains also cover it with pools." (Psalm 84:4-6)

....In time, a permanent settlement arose at this spot, and the valley of Becca became known as the city of Mecca.

Are you sure it is not a valley in Zion?

[size=+2] [/size] As they pass through the valley of Baca [#1056], they set a fountain of springs; the former rains cover it with blessings." 7 They go from strength to strength ; [Each one] appears before God in Zion.

1056 Baka' baw-kaw' from 1058, weeping; Baca, a valley in Palestine:--Baca. 1058 bakah baw-kaw' a primitive root; to weep; generally to bemoan:--X at all, bewail, complain, make lamentation, X more, mourn, X sore, X with tears, weep.

 

[ma70]

Re: Abraham est. Mecca, the Qu'ran bids no-entry for non-Muslims yet Guru Nanak visit

Baha'is believe in progressive revelation - ie, that what Mohammed taught then was true and right for Muslims then, but since the return of Baha'u'llah in the 19th century, the dictates of Islam have been superceded, along with most major religious movements.

As for Guru Nanak - I've certainly heard of his trying to reconcile Islam and Hinduism - not heard of the story about Mecca - a source on that story would be good, as it might make for an interesting read.

thanks for the explanation,

I know that this is going out of the original topic, but I think that i didnt make my point clear.

If they believed that at Muhammad was a prophet and that at a certain time his teachings were right, then they should know that his teachings dictated that he was the last prophet sent by God, which no prophet claimed before (up to my personal knowledge). He also taught that any new innovations in religions are not accepted. Personally, i think that they are contradecting themselves in what they believe and what they do.

Again, i was just trying to make my point clear. Sorry if I offended anyone, as it wasnt my intention.

 

[wil]

Re: Abraham est. Mecca, the Qu'ran bids no-entry for non-Muslims yet Guru Nanak visit

his teachings dictated that he was the last prophet sent by God, which no prophet claimed before (up to my personal knowledge). He also taught that any new innovations in religions are not accepted.

this seems to actually be a common thread in religions. ie proclaiming this is the be all and end all, and any changes are verboten. I believe both Judaism and Christianity have that implication.

Tis part of the connundrum, if you believe the bible to be the truth, the word of God and the highest authority, where do you find your proof of this other than in the bible....using what the book says to prove the book is true. (Using what Mohamed says to prove what Mohamed says is true). Of course then if you have better proof outside the bible to prove the bible is true then are you saying that is a more reliable authority?

That is the blessing of spirituality and religions, the problem is we take which is a personal decision and think it belongs to everyone.

 

[ma70]

Re: Abraham est. Mecca, the Qu'ran bids no-entry for non-Muslims yet Guru Nanak visit

Are you sure it is not a valley in Zion?

[size=+2] [/size] As they pass through the valley of Baca [#1056], they set a fountain of springs; the former rains cover it with blessings." 7 They go from strength to strength ; [Each one] appears before God in Zion.

1056 Baka' baw-kaw' from 1058, weeping; Baca, a valley in Palestine:--Baca. 1058 bakah baw-kaw' a primitive root; to weep; generally to bemoan:--X at all, bewail, complain, make lamentation, X more, mourn, X sore, X with tears, weep.

In this case, it sounds like if he is referring to the valley of Zion. I think that this would make a great topic of discussion, "What is Judaisms, Christianity and Islams thought about Makkah".

 

[bhakthi]

Re: Abraham est. Mecca, the Qu'ran bids no-entry for non-Muslims yet Guru Nanak visit

If you believe that there is no god but God, then you should worship him in the way he prescribed. Also, if you believe that Muhammad is the prophet of God, then you should follow his teachings and way of worshipping God. If you do so, you are a Muslim. If you dont, you just admitted that you believed in something and chose not to follow it...

Bhakthi- "There is no god but God." There is something strange about this prayer.God has always known by His Name.He was never known as just GOD.
.God has been known as The Almighty,The Most High, Elohim,Adonai,Yah, etc but not simply god.There is God and there is god.Almost every Roman emperor wanted to be known as a god. God has given his children the privilege of calling him Father.”To as many as received him to them he gave right to become children of God.”John;1:12 [ Allah never did this.]”He cannot beget”- The Koran says. But the True God has a Son .He is Almighty He can beget [Psalm;2:1]and He has children too whom he begot.[“They are born of God.” John;1:13 ]-The Bible says.4} The God in heaven sent His Son into the world as the Savior of the world.And spoke from heaven about His Son,”This is my Beloved Son listen to him.”

 

[Samuel Linton Boot]

Re: Abraham est. Mecca, the Qu'ran bids no-entry for non-Muslims yet Guru Nanak visit

Are you sure it is not a valley in Zion?

I was quoting the book mentioned in the original post. So I am not sure but in the course of answering your post I have looked at the relevant passage in the bible and searched 'Valley of Baca' on the web. Indeed the bible passage says pilgrims passed through the valley of Baca on their way to Mount Zion, however there is no valley in Palestine called Baca simply speculation that there might have been one there in the past. So it seems the Valley of Baca, mentioned in the Psalms, probaly does refer to the Valley of Bakkah, which later became known as Makkah, as there is no known alternative location posited.

 

[Samuel Linton Boot]

Re: Abraham est. Mecca, the Qu'ran bids no-entry for non-Muslims yet Guru Nanak visit

As for Guru Nanak - I've certainly heard of his trying to reconcile Islam and Hinduism - not heard of the story about Mecca - a source on that story would be good, as it might make for an interesting read.

I first came across this in a book telling the life stories of the ten Gurus.

The story of the miracle at Mecca is related here http://www.urday.com/gurunanak.htm as well as his further travels on to Baghdad scroll down to 'The Fourth Journey' 'Preaching in Mecca'.

and this is interesting: http://www.islaminterfaith.org/feb2003/interview.html

 

[Samuel Linton Boot]

Re: Abraham est. Mecca, the Qu'ran bids no-entry for non-Muslims yet Guru Nanak visit

If they believed that at Muhammad was a prophet and that at a certain time his teachings were right, then they should know that his teachings dictated that he was the last prophet sent by God, which no prophet claimed before (up to my personal knowledge). He also taught that any new innovations in religions are not accepted.

I have trouble with this. I cannot accept Muhammed (PBUH) meant what he said in the way in which you understand, just as I cannot accept Jesus (PBUH) said that the only way to the Father is through him. Perhaps these words were meant for those actually present before them and not for the whole of mankind forever.

How do you define a Prophet? Does a Prophet have more or less authority than a Saint?

"The messenger believes, as do the faithful, in what God has revealed to him from his Lord. Each one believes in God, his angels, his books, and his messengers, without making any distinction between any of his messengers. They say, "We hear and we obey. Grant us, Lord, your forgiveness for to you is the ultimate return." (Qur'aan 2:285)

 

[InChristAlways]

Re: Abraham est. Mecca, the Qu'ran bids no-entry for non-Muslims yet Guru Nanak visit

As they pass through the valley of Baca [#1056], they set a fountain of springs; the former rains cover it with blessings." 7 They go from strength to strength ; [Each one] appears before God in Zion.

1056 Baka' baw-kaw' from 1058, weeping; Baca, a valley in Palestine:--Baca. 1058 bakah baw-kaw' a primitive root; to weep; generally to bemoan:--X at all, bewail, complain, make lamentation, X more, mourn, X sore, X with tears, weep.

I was quoting the book mentioned in the original post. So I am not sure but in the course of answering your post I have looked at the relevant passage in the bible and searched 'Valley of Baca' on the web. Indeed the bible passage says pilgrims passed through the valley of Baca on their way to Mount Zion, however there is no valley in Palestine called Baca simply speculation that there might have been one there in the past. So it seems the Valley of Baca, mentioned in the Psalms, probaly does refer to the Valley of Bakkah, which later became known as Makkah, as there is no known alternative location posited.

I am always more curious when a form of the word is only used one time in the Bible such as this one:

There is one verse containing the word Baka' (Strong's 01056) .

So I look up how the root of that word is used in the rest of the OT and wonder why it is used as a form of "weeping/wailing".

[size=+2] Jeremiah 9:1 Who doth make my head waters, And mine eye a fountain of tears? And I weep [#1058] by day and by night, For the wounded of the daughter of my people.

Why would the sons/children of Israel and Judah go "weeping" to seek the Lord God [Mt Zion?] and what does "those day" signify? [translations may vary]

[/size](Young LT) Jeremiah 50:4 In those days, and at that time, An affirmation of Jehovah, Come in do sons of Israel, They and sons of Judah together, Going on and weeping[#1058] they go, And Jehovah their God they seek.

​

Joel 1:5 Awake, ye drunkards, and weep [#1058], And howl all drinking wine, because of the new wine, For it hath been cut off from your mouth.

1058 bakah baw-kaw' a primitive root; to weep; generally to bemoan:--X at all, bewail, complain, make lamentation, X more, mourn, X sore, X with tears, weep.

 

[mansio]

Re: Abraham est. Mecca, the Qu'ran bids no-entry for non-Muslims yet Guru Nanak visit

3emeq haBakha' (not Baka') means "valley of the Balsam Tree". It's a valley that lead to the Western Gate of Jerusalem. It was the last stage for pilgrims going to the Temple.

 

[InChristAlways]

Re: Abraham est. Mecca, the Qu'ran bids no-entry for non-Muslims yet Guru Nanak visit

Jeremiah 9:1 Who doth make my head waters, And mine eye a fountain of tears? And I weep [#1058] by day and by night, For the wounded of the daughter of my people.

Why would the sons/children of Israel and Judah go "weeping" to seek the Lord God [Mt Zion?] and what does "those day" signify? [translations may vary]

(Young LT) Jeremiah 50:4 In those days, and at that time, An affirmation of Jehovah, Come in do sons of Israel, They and sons of Judah together, Going on and weeping [#1058] they go, And Jehovah their God they seek.

​

Joel 1:5 Awake, ye drunkards, and weep [#1058], And howl all drinking wine, because of the new wine, For it hath been cut off from your mouth.

3emeq haBakha' (not Baka') means "valley of the Balsam Tree". It's a valley that lead to the Western Gate of Jerusalem. It was the last stage for pilgrims going to the Temple.

Thanks mansio. Almost sounds like the "weeping" willow tree

Perhaps it is "symbolic", as the jews do weep at the "wailing wall" in Jerusalem for the loss of their Temple and Tabernacle destroyed through God in the first century?
Steve

http://www.eliyah.com/lexicon.html

1057 baka' baw-kaw' the same as 1056; the weeping tree (some gum- distilling tree, perhaps the balsam):--mulberry tree. AV - mulberry tree 4; 4
1) balsam tree - a shrub which drips sap

1058 bakah baw-kaw' a primitive root; to weep; generally to bemoan:--X at all, bewail, complain, make lamentation, X more, mourn, X sore, X with tears, weep.

of Baca 01056 Baka' {baw-kaw'} from 01058;; n pr loc AV - Baca 1; 1
Baca = "weeping"
1) a valley in Palestine [size=+2]
[/size]

 

[mansio]

Re: Abraham est. Mecca, the Qu'ran bids no-entry for non-Muslims yet Guru Nanak visit

The valley of Bakha' has nothing to do with weeping.

To weep is bakhah a word built on a B-K-H consonant root.

Bakha' the balsam tree is built on a B-K-' consonant root.