Interfaith as a Faith
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RubySera_Martin
Well-Known Member
bolo said:
THANK YOU, Bolo! I know I'm not the only one but I won't endanger the reputation of the other person I know for sure who thinks like this. World Council of Churches, with head-quarters in Europe, refuse to believe it. I think people who make it their job to fix the world's religious problems should at least be aware that the problems exist. They denied it when told by a resident. Perhaps they have changed their mind by now but they sure didn't believe me the other winter when they visited the school where I'm studying. They actually requested a change of topic.
I guess they had just come from a visit in Texas or somewhere and they had been treated well. The thing is, the churches that participate in ecumenicalism are not the militant fundamentalists. So of course they didn't see anything worth worrying about. They probably pulled up as close as possible to the front entrance of the building they were visiting, which probably was one of the few relatively liberal places in the area. As international delegates, they would naturally have been treated well.
Anthropology teaches us to listen to the people we are visiting. These people didn't. My prof explained that it's because they're from Europe and don't encounter it on the daily basis we do. And here in Ontario it's mild compared to the Belt Buckle of the US. It's been through interaction on forums like this that I became aware of the sinister threat.
My profs listen to my concerns and complaints about fundamentalism but they seem to think it's mainly personal stuff for me. I've found one prof who does not feel this way. I told him what I want to study and he told me it's an important topic. I asked him why he says that. He needed some time to find the words to explain it but it resonated exactly with my own intuitions. This is a very serious problem. The world will never go back to its pre-Bush days. It cannot. It's been too long.
The way this topic fits into the thread is that interfaith endeavors are obligated to work closely with the context in which they exist. So long as we deny the politico-religious situation this cannot be done effectively.
RubySera_Martin
Well-Known Member
Quahom1 said:
reality...
Lol!!! The reality is that most balls are not as smart as this one.
RubySera_Martin
Well-Known Member
Brian, listen carefully to what Bolo is saying and I think you will get the picture. Take into consideration that Bolo is in the thick of it while you are on the other side of the ocean.I said:
http://msnusers.com/OpenChristianDebate/general.msnw
arthra said:
Yes, sorry if it sounded a bit disrespectful, but I was quoting.
I think anybody with an inquiring mind would be interested in participating in an inter-faith program on a cultural level. At the moment, when there are so many misconceptions about Islam caused by the terrorist incidents, I feel that would be very valuable.
On a recent tour of Thailand I was very interested in finding out more about Buddhism, and visited some temples and a Buddhist monastery.
However, I would only participate in a religious service that recognized Jesus Christ as God. My preference is a Pentecostal church, but I would worship with any Christian denomination. When I was in Rome I stayed at a Benedictine monastery for 2 weeks and enjoyed attending some of their worship services.
My concern when reading this thread and others, is that fundamentalists tend to get stereotyped - as does any group. Sure, I believe my faith is the one true faith, but not everyone is called to walk the same path. I would rather fellowship with a devout Muslim than a hypocritical Christian.
Ken
RubySera_Martin said:
I think it's fair to say the issue is much more of a US issue than British one.
While I can certainly appreciate that there is a lot of aggression in spreading certain ideas/ideals by many different belief systems in the US, I really don't think CR itself is in any danger of being subverted, and neither the UK anytime soon.
And as before, I'm not going to start discriminating against Christians on this site merely for having a fundamentalist position. We seek civility, the ability to discuss without denigrating. We have Christian fundamentalists here who accept that and are very welcome for it.
I've met plenty of "liberals" whose positions of extreme intolerance simply looked like a mirror of the very things they claimed they were fighting against.
Personally, I don't think anyone benefits from a position of "The evils of the world can be blamed on ____ ", where ____ can be "gays" "blacks" "white" "women" "men" "lefties" "fundies" etc.
In my opinion, it's just another form of prejudice, and you can't fight prejudice with prejudice, hate with hate. Communication, education, and perserverence, perhaps. And that starts with dialogue. That's what interfaith is for, isn't it?
2c.
arthra
Baha'i
Hello Kenod!
Thanks for your reply to my post.
Kenod wrote:
"I think anybody with an inquiring mind would be interested in participating in an inter-faith program on a cultural level. At the moment, when there are so many misconceptions about Islam caused by the terrorist incidents, I feel that would be very valuable."
I think that's an excellent point and I would personally welcome you to participate in a forum we occasionally have sponsored by our Inter-faith Council. We had one on the Middle East situation awhile ago that was very well received in the community and I totally agree there are misconceptions about Islam that should be explored...
God's blessings!
- Art
Thanks for your reply to my post.
Kenod wrote:
"I think anybody with an inquiring mind would be interested in participating in an inter-faith program on a cultural level. At the moment, when there are so many misconceptions about Islam caused by the terrorist incidents, I feel that would be very valuable."
I think that's an excellent point and I would personally welcome you to participate in a forum we occasionally have sponsored by our Inter-faith Council. We had one on the Middle East situation awhile ago that was very well received in the community and I totally agree there are misconceptions about Islam that should be explored...
God's blessings!
- Art
Thanks Ruby, sadly until some promoters of interfaith between rampant fundamentalism and the more ‘trusting’ types are actually at the receiving end of what this is all about they will never be able to appreciate what persons like you and I are seeking to explain to them in good faith. They will never be able to differentiate between a genuine practitioner at interfaith and a smiling evangelist who is exceptionally well -funded and trained to infiltrate such events for the prime reason of 'Missionary Outreach' to others.
We can only warn!
RubySera_Martin
Well-Known Member
Just read up on this thread. Brian, you imagine my problem with fundamentalism is intolerance. It's not. It's far, far more than intolerance. Okay, okay, anything can be made to fit a mold called "intolerance" but we are talking about something far more sinister than simple intolerance.
You imagine fundamentalism is just a specific set of religious ideas. It's not. It's far, far more than that. And it's not just an American problem. It's a global problem.
However, I think it is imperative that we differentiate between individuals who hold certain religious beliefs and a sinister global threat. We are talking about human beings who have found what they think is the best religious choice for them. We must respect that. And I do. On the level of the individual.
On the level of global politics fundamentalism is more than a threat. It's a reality. If you are at all aware of what happens beyond your own boundaries, which perhaps you aren't, then you will know that I speak the truth.
When the world's most powerful man is a pawn of the Religious Right, then we are in trouble. This has been the case for a very long time. Not even the world wars lasted longer than this war on terrorism has been going on. In another few years we will have put in another "Hundred Years' War." And there is no end in sight.
Someone suggested I refer to such things as global warming. I think that person was being sarcastic in the extreme. Even this war on terrorism is but the tip of the iceburg of the threat of fundamentalism. What Bolo is talking about is far more serious than a little war.
As for your attack on the liberal Christians, Brian, I don't think you understand. So far as I know, not one of us said we were better or more peaceful. We are saying that we want to discuss topics that are not allowed on the regular Christian board, due to the large number of very conservative Christians on there.
If you are at all familiar with forming groups and how they function, you will know that sometimes conflict is necessary simply for people to figure out who's who and what the group is about. In this case, we are talking about the formation of a totally new religious movement. We are at the cutting edge of exploration and search for a theology that can be called Christian but better meet the needs of people today than traditional Christianity.
We are scattered all over the globe and come from very diverse backgrounds and experiences. Most of us have existed on the outer margins of Christianity all our lives because we could neither leave nor stay. A forum like your created for discussion of the issues is desperately needed. Such forums are beginning to appear on the internet.
My problem with you is that you contribute to the problem by hating me for posting and hating me for not posting. You're going to suggest a gentler term than that but it adds up to the same thing--you don't like me. You can delete my membership and all my posts but you cannot change the truth of what I say. Christian fundamentalism is the Number #1 threat of the planet.
I guess normal people would rather kill the prophets and break the mirrors than fix their ignorance and face reality. So Brian if you really and truly want to know why I say fundamentalism is this planet's number one threat, you will absorb what Bolo is saying, and then do some really serious research.
Start with the faith statements of American schools, churches, and other Christian organizations, large numbers of which are posted on the internet and open to the public. Make special note of the faith statements of American megachurches. Research the global outreach programs and missions these churches operate. Look at the positive and negative implications of these beliefs. Research the role of the American Religious Right in global politics and foreign policy TODAY.
I don't know how better to answer your question.
You imagine fundamentalism is just a specific set of religious ideas. It's not. It's far, far more than that. And it's not just an American problem. It's a global problem.
However, I think it is imperative that we differentiate between individuals who hold certain religious beliefs and a sinister global threat. We are talking about human beings who have found what they think is the best religious choice for them. We must respect that. And I do. On the level of the individual.
On the level of global politics fundamentalism is more than a threat. It's a reality. If you are at all aware of what happens beyond your own boundaries, which perhaps you aren't, then you will know that I speak the truth.
When the world's most powerful man is a pawn of the Religious Right, then we are in trouble. This has been the case for a very long time. Not even the world wars lasted longer than this war on terrorism has been going on. In another few years we will have put in another "Hundred Years' War." And there is no end in sight.
Someone suggested I refer to such things as global warming. I think that person was being sarcastic in the extreme. Even this war on terrorism is but the tip of the iceburg of the threat of fundamentalism. What Bolo is talking about is far more serious than a little war.
As for your attack on the liberal Christians, Brian, I don't think you understand. So far as I know, not one of us said we were better or more peaceful. We are saying that we want to discuss topics that are not allowed on the regular Christian board, due to the large number of very conservative Christians on there.
If you are at all familiar with forming groups and how they function, you will know that sometimes conflict is necessary simply for people to figure out who's who and what the group is about. In this case, we are talking about the formation of a totally new religious movement. We are at the cutting edge of exploration and search for a theology that can be called Christian but better meet the needs of people today than traditional Christianity.
We are scattered all over the globe and come from very diverse backgrounds and experiences. Most of us have existed on the outer margins of Christianity all our lives because we could neither leave nor stay. A forum like your created for discussion of the issues is desperately needed. Such forums are beginning to appear on the internet.
My problem with you is that you contribute to the problem by hating me for posting and hating me for not posting. You're going to suggest a gentler term than that but it adds up to the same thing--you don't like me. You can delete my membership and all my posts but you cannot change the truth of what I say. Christian fundamentalism is the Number #1 threat of the planet.
I guess normal people would rather kill the prophets and break the mirrors than fix their ignorance and face reality. So Brian if you really and truly want to know why I say fundamentalism is this planet's number one threat, you will absorb what Bolo is saying, and then do some really serious research.
Start with the faith statements of American schools, churches, and other Christian organizations, large numbers of which are posted on the internet and open to the public. Make special note of the faith statements of American megachurches. Research the global outreach programs and missions these churches operate. Look at the positive and negative implications of these beliefs. Research the role of the American Religious Right in global politics and foreign policy TODAY.
I don't know how better to answer your question.
Yes, there can be no possible allegations of "intolerance" which ever stand up against one who only ‘warns’ in fairness about very real missionary dangers.
I reiterate that clever evangelists have been for many centuries abusing the trust, friendliness and blanket naivety of others at interfaith liaisons for the single purpose of creating 'outreaches' to these people. Any genuine examination of how the forces of fundamentalism have usurped other faiths throughout the decades is crystal clear evidence of this. The BIG difference today is that they are just more expert at what they do, e.g. gain converts with more practiced expertise and better-funded methods worldwide. They are not in ‘any’ way interested in sharing the cup of genuine tolerance and understanding for they already have been extremely well-trained to know ‘more’ about the beliefs, traditions, festivals and customs of others than the actual practitioners themselves. They perceive ‘all’ other faiths as being rivals to their limited brand of sectarianism, needing to be either subjugated or ‘spiritually rehabilitated’ and they have greater funding and proficiency in their circles than you could ever imagine. Now, why anyone will not or cannot see this plain fact (which is self-admitted in Christian theological dogma - spreading the gospel/good news etc) is especially bizarre and would lead me for one to seriously question their ‘motives’ on a site which I assume is dedicated to human harmony and spiritual tolerance. Yes, fundamentalism is a global problem and one which needs to the strongly challenged for one set of elitist sectarian beliefs can never result in true concord. Why anyone would wish to help such radical forces gain a foothold at trusting interfaith events is very VERY odd!
I reiterate that clever evangelists have been for many centuries abusing the trust, friendliness and blanket naivety of others at interfaith liaisons for the single purpose of creating 'outreaches' to these people. Any genuine examination of how the forces of fundamentalism have usurped other faiths throughout the decades is crystal clear evidence of this. The BIG difference today is that they are just more expert at what they do, e.g. gain converts with more practiced expertise and better-funded methods worldwide. They are not in ‘any’ way interested in sharing the cup of genuine tolerance and understanding for they already have been extremely well-trained to know ‘more’ about the beliefs, traditions, festivals and customs of others than the actual practitioners themselves. They perceive ‘all’ other faiths as being rivals to their limited brand of sectarianism, needing to be either subjugated or ‘spiritually rehabilitated’ and they have greater funding and proficiency in their circles than you could ever imagine. Now, why anyone will not or cannot see this plain fact (which is self-admitted in Christian theological dogma - spreading the gospel/good news etc) is especially bizarre and would lead me for one to seriously question their ‘motives’ on a site which I assume is dedicated to human harmony and spiritual tolerance. Yes, fundamentalism is a global problem and one which needs to the strongly challenged for one set of elitist sectarian beliefs can never result in true concord. Why anyone would wish to help such radical forces gain a foothold at trusting interfaith events is very VERY odd!
I said:
One or two serious points need to be addressed herein...
I’m sure that Ruby can answer this one but it has to be said that ‘fundamentalism’ is the number one enemy simply because it demands total and unquestioning allegiance to a doctrinal plan which is elitist, biased against others and seeks to spread this particular spiritual prejudice, which is founded ‘not’ on solid hysterical truths but only blind faith, to others via expert missionary tactics. Of course not that long ago even speaking like this would have resulted in a little visit from the Inquisition and a nice trip to the blazing stake following a fun night or two in the prison. The very same theological credos that sent so many innocent dissenters to that stake are 'still' in place today, the holy books have NOT been changed, and many dearly believe that we would all be better off if we revived their somewhat savage usage into contemporary society - for our own good you understand!
Now where do you think that would leave liberal-minded persons who believe in ‘pro-choice’ issue and personal liberty with anti-biblical topics like abortion, gay rights, euthanasia, minority beliefs etc?
Can you perhaps feel the heat of that stake around here yet?
Ruby, I don't hate you - I simply found your behaviour disruptive, and responded on that point.
As for the whole fundamentalism issue - I don't deny there is aggressive marketing out there, but to claim it as the "Number 1 threat to the planet" I think is more than overstating it. I'll put Climate Change top of that, which is driven by irresponsible consumerism worldwide, rather than due to any specific religious worldview.
To be honest, I don't see a conspiracy with interfaith issues at all and am surprised to see them suggested. It's true that different religious groups want to have a strong voice in interfaith, but I see many sides doing this and act accordingly.
What I find comes across more in this thread is that some people dislike intolerance to the point of intolerance themselves - a paradoxical outlook where those who hate are hated, surely?
As for the whole fundamentalism issue - I don't deny there is aggressive marketing out there, but to claim it as the "Number 1 threat to the planet" I think is more than overstating it. I'll put Climate Change top of that, which is driven by irresponsible consumerism worldwide, rather than due to any specific religious worldview.
To be honest, I don't see a conspiracy with interfaith issues at all and am surprised to see them suggested. It's true that different religious groups want to have a strong voice in interfaith, but I see many sides doing this and act accordingly.
What I find comes across more in this thread is that some people dislike intolerance to the point of intolerance themselves - a paradoxical outlook where those who hate are hated, surely?
RubySera_Martin
Well-Known Member
Brian, thanks for clarifying your position.
I wonder if perhaps you simply have not been in a position to see these things. That does not rule out that they exist. It simply means you have not seen them. As you confess, these issues are probably worse in the Bible Belt in the USA than anywhere else in the entire world. I consider it significant that it is these very people who operates American foreign policy.
It has long been known that there is no greater danger to society at large than religious fanatics. And an alarming number of American and Muslim fundamentalists are religious fanatics. Incidentally, they hold the fate of the rest of this planet in their hands. Bush is the Christian fundamentalists' pawn.
Read news articles of the culture wars in the US. When I first read these articles I felt like the air was so full or toxins I could hardly breathe. Brian, this stuff is REAL, whether or not you believe it. In this environment children are being born and raised--just be replicates of their fundy fanatic parents.
I don't think anyone is suggesting that your interfaith forums are wrong or in any way a threat to society. We're trying to discuss an issue some of us deal with on a daily, hourly, basis. It impedes discussion when we are told by the manager that the topic of discussion is illegitimate just because he personally has not seen it, has not been in a position to experience it first-hand.
Maybe someone will have to set up a forum to discuss these issues apart from this forum. However, that would be unfortunate because the people are here.
As for climate being the biggest problem. Brian, if someone blows up the planet in the next few days or years, climate problems will no longer exist. But there's more to it than that. It's a far deeper problem.
Look at the way education laws in some American states have been changed to deny a full scientific education to children in public school--just because fundamentalists believe creationsim is more valid than evolution. The implications for future generations, if we don't blow up the planet first and I don't think we will, are huge. If these children are denied a full education in science, then there will be so many more people who refuse to believe the climate problem.
That's right. Fundamentalists are very likely to reject the idea that climate problems are legitimate. The world is going to end shortly, so why bother your head with science and climate issues. God creates and controls the weather. That is fundamentalist belief.
Also, look at the thousands of people in North America whose lives have been forever scared because of fundamentalist teachings, because of being forced to choose between their families and community, and lying about what they believe. Others have been kicked out of their churches on trumped-up charges, or at the whim of some church leader or pastor.
A significant portion of these excommunicated members are forbidden to interact with or visit their families because of the dictates of fundamentalist religion. Some fundamentalist churches go so far as to invade the marriage bed. Some fundamentalists will refuse to do business with excommunicated members. Some will refuse to eat at the same table as excommunicated family members.
These things damage lives permanently. Counselors and other human service providers see some the worst cases up close on a daily bassis. On the other hand, it is an open question whether the worst cases even get reported or have the strength to seek help.
That is on the personal day-to-day level of existence in an exclusively fundamentalist community. On the macro level, laws are being put in place for some of the more blatant abuses, such as spanking/beating children. Another thing that happens despite laws to prevent it, is attempted murder by fundamentalists of homosexual people. Thus, laws cannot prevent the abuses. Fundamentalists will go to jail for their beliefs before they change what they believe.
I don't know how many gays have been killed in the name of religion but I have read the testimonies of people whose lives have been threatened in unmistable terms. For example, a pastor drives a man out of his church at gun-point because he is gay.
That is one of the documentable abuses of fundamentalist religion. The present war between the US and Iraq is another such documentable issue. Please open your eyes and accept reality for what it is. And please, Brian, don't tell us who are in the thick of it that we don't know what we're talking about.
Again, this is not directed at any specific individual. I know fundamentalists who are very good people but the effects of the collective fundy mind/belief on the global scale is a power to be reckoned with. If you don't want the evidence piled on in all its gory detail, just accept that we do know what we're talking about. Accept that these things are real. In addition, this is your site so you have the right to forbid discussion of these issues on your forum. But telling us these issues are not real or legitimate is probably outside your rightful domain. That is how I see it.
Ruby
I said:
I wonder if perhaps you simply have not been in a position to see these things. That does not rule out that they exist. It simply means you have not seen them. As you confess, these issues are probably worse in the Bible Belt in the USA than anywhere else in the entire world. I consider it significant that it is these very people who operates American foreign policy.
It has long been known that there is no greater danger to society at large than religious fanatics. And an alarming number of American and Muslim fundamentalists are religious fanatics. Incidentally, they hold the fate of the rest of this planet in their hands. Bush is the Christian fundamentalists' pawn.
Read news articles of the culture wars in the US. When I first read these articles I felt like the air was so full or toxins I could hardly breathe. Brian, this stuff is REAL, whether or not you believe it. In this environment children are being born and raised--just be replicates of their fundy fanatic parents.
I don't think anyone is suggesting that your interfaith forums are wrong or in any way a threat to society. We're trying to discuss an issue some of us deal with on a daily, hourly, basis. It impedes discussion when we are told by the manager that the topic of discussion is illegitimate just because he personally has not seen it, has not been in a position to experience it first-hand.
Maybe someone will have to set up a forum to discuss these issues apart from this forum. However, that would be unfortunate because the people are here.
As for climate being the biggest problem. Brian, if someone blows up the planet in the next few days or years, climate problems will no longer exist. But there's more to it than that. It's a far deeper problem.
Look at the way education laws in some American states have been changed to deny a full scientific education to children in public school--just because fundamentalists believe creationsim is more valid than evolution. The implications for future generations, if we don't blow up the planet first and I don't think we will, are huge. If these children are denied a full education in science, then there will be so many more people who refuse to believe the climate problem.
That's right. Fundamentalists are very likely to reject the idea that climate problems are legitimate. The world is going to end shortly, so why bother your head with science and climate issues. God creates and controls the weather. That is fundamentalist belief.
Also, look at the thousands of people in North America whose lives have been forever scared because of fundamentalist teachings, because of being forced to choose between their families and community, and lying about what they believe. Others have been kicked out of their churches on trumped-up charges, or at the whim of some church leader or pastor.
A significant portion of these excommunicated members are forbidden to interact with or visit their families because of the dictates of fundamentalist religion. Some fundamentalist churches go so far as to invade the marriage bed. Some fundamentalists will refuse to do business with excommunicated members. Some will refuse to eat at the same table as excommunicated family members.
These things damage lives permanently. Counselors and other human service providers see some the worst cases up close on a daily bassis. On the other hand, it is an open question whether the worst cases even get reported or have the strength to seek help.
That is on the personal day-to-day level of existence in an exclusively fundamentalist community. On the macro level, laws are being put in place for some of the more blatant abuses, such as spanking/beating children. Another thing that happens despite laws to prevent it, is attempted murder by fundamentalists of homosexual people. Thus, laws cannot prevent the abuses. Fundamentalists will go to jail for their beliefs before they change what they believe.
I don't know how many gays have been killed in the name of religion but I have read the testimonies of people whose lives have been threatened in unmistable terms. For example, a pastor drives a man out of his church at gun-point because he is gay.
That is one of the documentable abuses of fundamentalist religion. The present war between the US and Iraq is another such documentable issue. Please open your eyes and accept reality for what it is. And please, Brian, don't tell us who are in the thick of it that we don't know what we're talking about.
Again, this is not directed at any specific individual. I know fundamentalists who are very good people but the effects of the collective fundy mind/belief on the global scale is a power to be reckoned with. If you don't want the evidence piled on in all its gory detail, just accept that we do know what we're talking about. Accept that these things are real. In addition, this is your site so you have the right to forbid discussion of these issues on your forum. But telling us these issues are not real or legitimate is probably outside your rightful domain. That is how I see it.
Ruby
RubySera_Martin
Well-Known Member
InLove said:
Someone seems to be starting to think. That gives me hope. Thanks for sharing this, InLove.
RubySera_Martin said:
Your welcome, Ruby. Been thinking all along. You and I just approach things in a different way. None of the words here on this thread, regardless of who posted them, are lost on me. I am listening. Have been all along. I may have sidetracked things a little bit or a lot, but it was unintentional.
I think that's all I should say right now. I have most likely said too much already. I still hold to my statements here, but I do see where you (and bolo) are coming from. I have all along. Like I say, our approaches to the problem are just very different.
I really do want to let my part in this thread be over, at least for now. I think it is for the best, all around.
As hopefully always,
InPeace,
InLove