Trinity? Stake Vs Cross Vs Tree

[Thomas]

Consider:
In reference to the English martyrs, say, or other victims of the Reformation, we refer to them as 'having died at the stake', then according to the logic of this argument, which is the truth must endorse the opinion held, this can only mean they died by impaling.

If, however, we examine all the evidence available to us, we know that they were tied to the stake, and burnt alive.

I suggest that by saying 'death at the stake' everyone knows what is meant, and likewise the Greek stauros everyone knew they meant the Roman form of execution - the 'crux' as the Rromans called it, or cross.

Thomas

 

[Thomas]

Crucifixion: An especially grim description of this punishment, meted out to murderers, highwaymen, and other gross offenders, is the following from a didactic poem:
"Punished with limbs outstretched,
they see the stake as their fate;
they are fasted, nailed to it with sharpest spikes,
an ugly meal for birds of prey and grim scraps for dogs."

Much later in Latin speech "Crux!" became a curse, to indicate the way the speaker thought the one accursed should end. Other epithets among the lower classes found in Plautus, Terence, and Petronius are "Crossbar Charlie" (Patibulatus) and "Food for Crows" (Corvorum Cibaria).
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/peter_kirby/tomb/roman.html

Thomas

 

[Quahom1]

Consider:
In reference to the English martyrs, say, or other victims of the Reformation, we refer to them as 'having died at the stake', then according to the logic of this argument, which is the truth must endorse the opinion held, this can only mean they died by impaling.

If, however, we examine all the evidence available to us, we know that they were tied to the stake, and burnt alive.

I suggest that by saying 'death at the stake' everyone knows what is meant, and likewise the Greek stauros everyone knew they meant the Roman form of execution - the 'crux' as the Rromans called it, or cross.

Thomas

True, there is a distinction between being burnt or hung from a "stake" and being impaled on a "Pike". Hence the term "Pike men", who's job was to impale the enemies' horses in battle, and "Gaffers" who's job was to pull the enemy from the horse's back (again by impaling).

v/r

Q

 

[E99]

Hello Thomas


Your quote:
Consider:
In reference to the English martyrs, say, or other victims of the Reformation, we refer to them as 'having died at the stake', then according to the logic of this argument, which is the truth must endorse the opinion held, this can only mean they died by impaling.

If, however, we examine all the evidence available to us, we know that they were tied to the stake, and burnt alive.

I suggest that by saying 'death at the stake' everyone knows what is meant, and likewise the Greek stauros everyone knew they meant the Roman form of execution - the 'crux' as the Rromans called it, or cross.


Similarly, under this reasoning, in a reversal of assumptions regarding the broader meaning of impale and stake. If it was said that the 'heretics' of the inquisitions etc died by the cross, we could therefore assume that it could mean a stake also. But we shouldn't and wouldn't do this because the noun 'cross' makes it specific to what item of execution would have been used by which the 'heretics' died. The same can be said of the death of Jesus. The bible is specific, it clearly says a stake and we shouldn't change it to mean a cross.


A distinction....burning on the stake of innocents under the persecutions of those that held up the cross as their symbol of Christ....

"Then the Holy Inquisition was born...thousands of torn and mutilated heretics shrieking under the torture, and other thousands and thousands of heretics and witches
burning at the stake, "always in the pleasant shade flung by the peaceful banner of the cross," as Satan remarked. And in the midst of these fearful spectacles, as an incidental matter, we had a marvelous nightshow, by the light of fitting and flying torches the butchery of Christian by Christian in France on Bartholomew's Day."---

Mark Twain​

Rather than referring to them as 'having died at the stake, generally the saying was recognised as 'Having been burnt at the stake.' The 'burning' negates the idea of the impaling, similarly the Greek noun stauros 'stake' negates the impaling on a cross. I think that anyone could get the gist of the manner of death on a stake in these cases, especially those 'heretics' that were burning in their last death throes and in the scriptures by the those that observed the death of Jesus.


The tortured must have wondered that those torturers holding up the 'banner of the cross' in the name of Christ really held the true symbol of Christ, or did they wonder that they were carrying an adopted symbol from an ancient pagan origin where torture was as rampant as with the inquisitions and 'heretical' slayings of their own time ?

However, if we take the saying 'Having died at the stake' and apply it to the gospel accounts by assuming that impale could have referred to impaling on a cross also......

The Greek verb stauroo...'impaling' is taken from the understanding about fixing to a pale...stauros, thus fixing a human to a stauros, pale, stake etc, in the case of ancient executions.
The noun stauros (stake) used in the scriptural accounts gives strength to the way in which the verb 'to impale or fix to an upright pole' is being applied in the bible. It is definate....on a single piece of wood. The context of all of the scriptures, and all of the uses of stauros, or at times 'xylon' (piece of wood) makes it clear to what Jesus was fixed upon. It has no other meaning, least of all a cross. Impaling on a stake was also used by the Romans as a means of execution, and there is no reason for some to make speculations that Jesus was put on anything different to what the scriptures indicate.


Is stauroo 'impaling' an idiom ? It may be seemingly open as to how it is applied, but stauros isn't. Koine Greek was an idiomatic Greek language, unlike classical Greek. The Greek literature and koine scriptural Greek both use stauros to mean a singular piece. Homer uses the word stauros of an ordinary pole or stake, or a single piece of timber. It tends to show that it has a definate literal meaning everywhere it crops up.


In fact what you say about everyone knowing what impale or stake could have meant can be illustrated regarding the way the noun stauros is thought of today, but this is a distorted view of the original word.
I have a Danish friend who's husband worked for the Cypriot government around the time of the '73 war. Having once lived in Cyprus she assured me that stauros, or stav-a-ros, as she pronounced it, meant cross, everyone living there with their crosses around their necks believed that stauros meant cross. Considering that the primary meaning at the time of the apostles was a single one piece stake. The cross is an extrapolation from what some historians recognise as coming from third and fourth century thought. The people have come to believe that stauros means cross by theological slant, after centuries of an imposed idea. This is an example of how the actual meaning of a noun can be perverted, likewise the verb can also be distorted to fit the perverted noun.

Originally the latin 'crux' (now taken to mean cross ) only meant a stake.

Quote:

The Latin word used for the instrument on which Christ died was crux which, according to Livy, a famous Roman historian of the first century C.E., means a mere stake. The Cyclopædia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature says that the crux simplex was a "mere stake of one single piece without transom [crossbar].'"

 

[Quahom1]

Originally the latin 'crux' (now taken to mean cross ) only meant a stake.

Quote:

The Latin word used for the instrument on which Christ died was crux which, according to Livy, a famous Roman historian of the first century C.E., means a mere stake. The Cyclopædia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature says that the crux simplex was a "mere stake of one single piece without transom [crossbar].'"

Not quite. The term you are looking for is cruxus simplex. Hence more than one cross...

I find this rather disturbing that Christians would go to such lengths to throw "stumbling blocks" in front of other Christians.

I thought we were thoughtful individuals...now I wonder.

As a Catholic Christian, I do not care for another variation to imply that my faith is in error. overtly or covertly. I particularly do not care for my own cruxious to be attempted as a force against me. I find that disturbing (to say the least).

You have your own way of thinking, and I have mine. I leave your's alone, now you leave mine the same...

This has gone way beyond Mee's/17th Angel's straight up issues, and is bordering on an attack against what?..another "Christian's faith"?

I think this thread has served it's purpose.

v/r

Q

 

[17th Angel]

Quahom? I wasn't attacking anyone, I was just questioing.

you see, when looking into the 'cross' and seeing it's history, it has been used in many religions such as a kind of "Sex God" in Egypt, and also in Babylon it was in respect to Nimrod. Then looking at the 10 commandments, it says you cannot worship any other God or form idols.. Isn't hanging a cross on your necks and church walls an idol?

I just wanted to see people's views on this, and it was kind of interesting...... Thanks for all your input.

 

[Quahom1]

Quahom? I wasn't attacking anyone, I was just questioing.

you see, when looking into the 'cross' and seeing it's history, it has been used in many religions such as a kind of "Sex God" in Egypt, and also in Babylon it was in respect to Nimrod. Then looking at the 10 commandments, it says you cannot worship any other God or form idols.. Isn't hanging a cross on your necks and church walls an idol?

I just wanted to see people's views on this, and it was kind of interesting...... Thanks for all your input.

You sure you got the right guy? I literally meant you might have program viruses in your computer, which is why there are so many pop ups and spam stuff that you were telling us about earlier. I didn't think you or anyone else was attacking anybody...honest!

You may need to get those viruses out of your computer system, so it doesn't take you forever to get online...

v/r

Q

 

[17th Angel]

You sure you got the right guy? I literally meant you might have program viruses in your computer, which is why there are so many pop ups and spam stuff that you were telling us about earlier. I didn't think you or anyone else was attacking anybody...honest!

You may need to get those viruses out of your computer system, so it doesn't take you forever to get online...

v/r

Q

*offers a very confused face*
I didn't say anything about spam or pop ups.... lol I used to create viruses and use them on others, not get hit by them, I made a crack about attacking the person who complained about having viruses... AAAAHH! I am confused, *retreats*

 

[Quahom1]

*offers a very confused face*
I didn't say anything about spam or pop ups.... lol I used to create viruses and use them on others, not get hit by them, I made a crack about attacking the person who complained about having viruses... AAAAHH! I am confused, *retreats*

OOPs right! E99 had the problem...

 

[Crispus]

Whatever, the word found here in many bibles translates the word 'stauros' as cross without any confirmed foundation to its meaning to do so. This is a gross mistransliteration, as the literal original word stauros is generally recognised amongst many to mean a single piece of wood...a pole. It has never been used to mean two crossed pieces.

It is well known that stauros originally meant stake or upright pole but the Romans used more than one type of instrument for execution. It is also well known that stauros is used primarily for stake in classical Greek but the N.T. was written in Koine Greek. Those who use argue for the classical Greek must also show if it was used to describe crucifixions after 30 A.D. in Palestine. Many scholars believe that by the first century the Romans employed the more well known form of crucifixion.

"[Stauros] means properly a stake, and is the tr. [i.e., translation] not merely of the Latin crux (cross), but of palus (stake) as well. As used in NT, however, it refers evidently not to the simple stake used for impaling, of which widespread punishment crucifixion was a refinement, but to the more elaborate cross used by the Romans in the time of Christ."
A Dictionary of Bible, Dealing With Its Language, Literature And Contents, Including The Biblical Theology, 1898, Volume I, T. & T. Clarke: Edinburgh, p. 528.

"The Greek word for cross, (stauros), properly signified a stake, an upright pole, or piece of paling, on which anything might be hung, or which might be used in impaling (fencing in) a piece of ground. But a modification was introduced as the dominion and usages of Rome extended themselves through Greek-speaking countries. Even amongst the Romans, the crux (from which the word cross is derived) appears to have been originally an upright pole, and always remained the more prominent part. But from the time that it began to be used as an instrument of punishment, a traverse piece of wood was commonly added ... about the period of the Gospel Age, crucifixion was usually accomplished by suspending the criminal on a cross piece of wood."
The Imperial Bible Dictionary", by P. Fairbairn, London, 1874, Vol 1 p225

There are several historical documents that show the Romans used a cross for crucifixion in the first and second century.

"Consider our world and whether there would be any effective administration or community if it were not for this form of the cross. You can only cross the sea when you make use of a sail in the ship. The earth is not plowed without it. This same shape of the cross is in the tools that diggers and mechanics use to do their work. And the human form differs from the animals in being erect with hands extended and having on the face extending from the forehead what is called a nose through which there is respiration for a living creature.

This too shows the form of cross."
Justin Martyr's First Apology, Chapter LV.-Symbols of the Cross.

"For the one beam is placed upright, from which the highest extremity is raised up into a horn, when the other beam is fitted on to it, and the ends appear on both sides as horns joined on to the one horn."
Justin's "Dialogue With Trypho", Chap XC in ANF, p. 245

Justin Martyr lived from approximately 100 to 165 AD.

“And because the cross in the T was to have grace, He saith also three hundred. So He revealeth Jesus in the two letters, and in the remaining one the cross.”
J.B. Lightfoot and J.R. Harmer, Editors, The Apostolic Fathers, “The Epistle of Barnabas” (9:8b), pg. 278

“The Spirit saith to the heart of Moses, that he should make a type of the cross and of Him that was to suffer, that unless, saith he, they shall set their hope on Him, war shall be waged against them for ever. Moses therefore pileth arms one upon another in the midst of the encounter, and standing on higher ground than any he stretched out his hands, and so Israel was again victorious.”
Ibid., (12:2) pp. 280-281

"The very form of the cross, too, has five extremities, two in length, two in bredth, and one in the middle, on which [last] the person rests who is fixed by the nails."
Irenaeus' "Against Heresies", Chap XXIV in ANF p. 395

In 197 AD Tertullian wrote:
"Every piece of timber which is fixed in the ground in an erect position is a part of a cross, and indeed the greater portion of its mass. But an entire cross is attributed to us, with its transverse beam, of course, and its projecting seat." Tertullian in "Ad Nationes" Chap XI in ANF, Vol III, p. 122

These writers lived in a period when crucifixions were still carried out, and could see these executions firsthand. Both Justin and Tertullian referred to cases where Christians were crucified (See ANF, Vol I, p. 254; Vol III, p. 28).

In the first century B.C. Dionysius of Halicarnassus described the practice of tying the patibulum across the victims back:

"A Roman citizen of no obscure station, having ordered one of his slaves to be put to death, delivered him to his fellow-slaves to be led away, and in order that his punishment might be witnessed by all, directed them to drag him through the Forum and every other conspicuous part of the city as they whipped him, and that he should go ahead of the procession which the Romans were at that time conducting in honour of the god. The men ordered to lead the slave to his punishment, having stretched out both his arms and fastened them to a piece of wood which extended across his breast and shoulders as far as his wrists, followed him, tearing his naked body with whips."
(Roman Antiquities, 7.69.1-2)

Seneca lived from 4 B.C. - A.D. 65, was a Roman and wrote the following:

*** refigere se crucibus conentur, in quas unusquisque vestrum clavos suos ipse adigit, ad supplicium tamen acti stipitibus singulis pendent; hi, qui in se ipsi animum advertunt, quot cupiditatibus tot crucibus distrahuntur. At maledici et in alienam contumeliam venusti sunt. Crederem illis hoc vacare, nisi quidam ex patibulo suo spectatores conspuerent! "Though they strive to release themselves from their crosses---those crosses to which each one of you nails himself with his own hand--yet they, when brought to punishment hang each one on a single stipes; but these others who bring upon themselves their own punishment are stretched upon as many crosses as they had desires. Yet they are slanderous and witty in heaping insult on others. I might believe that they were free to do so, did not some of them spit upon spectators from their own patibulum!" (De Vita Beata, 19.3).

....alium in cruce membra distendere.... "another to have his limbs stretched upon the crux" (De Ira, 1.2.2).

Video istic cruces non unius quidem generis sed aliter ab aliis fabricatas: capite quidam conversos in terram suspendere, alii per obscena stipitem egerunt, alii brachia patibulo explicuerunt. "Yonder I see crosses, not indeed of a single kind, but differently contrived by different peoples; some hang their victims with head toward the ground, some impale their private parts, others stretch out their arms on a patibulum" (De Consolatione, 20.3).

Contempissimum putarem, si vivere vellet usque ad crucem....Est tanti vulnus suum premere et patibulo pendere districtum.... Invenitur, qui velit adactus ad illud infelix lignum, iam debilis, iam pravus et in foedum scapularum ac pectoris tuber elisus, cui multae moriendi causae etiam citra crucem fuerant, trahere animam tot tormenta tracturam? "I should deem him most despicable had he wished to live up to the very time of crucifixion....Is it worth while to weigh down upon one's own wound, and hang impaled upon a patibulum?....Can any man be found willing to be fastened to the accursed tree, long sickly, already deformed, swelling with ugly tumours on chest and shoulders, and draw the breath of life amid long drawn-out agony? I think he would have many excuses for dying even before mounting the crux!" (Epistle, 101.10-14).

Cogita hoc loco carcerem et cruces et eculeos et uncum et adactum per medium hominem, qui per os emergeret, stipitem. "Picture to yourself under this head the prison, the crux, the rack, the hook, and the stake which they drive straight through a man until it protrudes from his throat" (Epistle, 14.5).

....sive extendendae per patibulum manus "....or his hands to be extended on a patibulum" (Fragmenta, 124; cf. Lactantius, Divinis Institutionibus, 6.17).

There is also testimony about the form of the cross by early non-Christian writers. The Greek writer Lukianos (c. 120-180 AD) wrote that the letter T had received its "evil meaning" because of the "evil instrument tyrants put up to hang people upon them. (Lukianos in "Iudicium Vocalium 12", in Crucifixion by Martin Hengel, Fortress Press, 1982, pp. 8,9)

Artemidorus lived in the 2nd century AD during the reigns of Hadrian and the Antonines. In his five-volume work Oneirocritica (The Interpretation of Dreams) he also compares the stauros to a ship:

"Being crucified is auspicious for all seafarers. For the stauros, like a ship, is made of wood and nails, and the ship's mast resembles a stauros."
Artemidorus, Oneirocritica, 2:53

We have evidence from the early Bible manuscripts themselves. The manuscripts P66 and P75 are traditionally dated around AD 200, but may be from as early as the last part of the first century. (See BIBLICA , Vol. 69:2, 1988; which dates the much related P46 this early, and preliminary information from Professor George Howard by letter stated P75 and P66 are "not far behind" in date.)

In P75 the word "stauros" is changed so the T and R together depict a cross with a person on in three places where it occurs, and P66 put a cross into the word "stauros."

In the 1940's Dr. Hermann Modder of Cologne, Germany carried out scientific tests to determine the cause of Christ's death. The results were recorded in the Bible as History by Werner Keller:

"In the case of a person suspended by his two hands the blood sinks very quickly into the lower half of the body. After six to twelve minutes blood pressure has dropped by 50% and the pulse rate has doubled. Too little blood reaches the heart, and fainting ensues. This leads to a speedy orthostatic collapse through insufficient blood circulating to the brain and the heart. Death by crucifixion is therefore [also] due to heart failure.
It is a well authenticated fact that victims of crucifixion did not usually die for two days or even longer. On the vertical beam there was often a small support attached called a "sedile" (seat) or a "cornu" (horn). If the victim hanging there eased his misery from time to time by supporting himself on this, the blood returned to the upper half of his body and the faintness passed. When the torture of the crucified man was finally to be brought to an end, the "crurifragium" was proceeded with: his legs were broken below the knee with blows from a club. That meant that he could no longer ease his weight on the footrests and heart failure quickly followed."
The Bible as History, by Werner Keller. Pages 348-349

Then there's Matthew 27:37 - Above his head they placed the written charge against him: THIS IS JESUS, THE KING OF THE JEWS. (NIV)

If Jesus had been crucified on a stake the natural way to state this would have been "Above his hands they placed the written charge..."

 

[mee]

The use of the cross as a religious symbol goes back much further than the time of Christ and is thus of non-Christian origin.

 

[Quahom1]

The use of the cross as a religious symbol goes back much further than the time of Christ and is thus of non-Christian origin.

Just because the use of the cruciform was used prior to Christianity has nothing to do with the use of the symbology used in Christianity. Apples and Oranges...

Why do you insist on the attempt of dispelling main stream Christian thought?

This is not acceptable Mee.

v/r

Q

 

[flowperson]

The ancient Hebrews set up "groves" in high places during their rituals of worship. This was abolished in about 600 bc by king Hezzikiah and the law giver Ezra. The groves were groupings of poles stuck into the earth, but it is not known if there was any particular pattern to such arrangements or not.

In the really ancient times in central Eurasia, going back at least 10,000 years shamans would erect poles stuck in the earth which represented the world tree. In rituals featuring chanting, drumming, and perhaps whistle blowing, shamans would climb the "tree" in order to reach the spirit realm to seek the assistance of the spirits to intervene in community affairs when that was necessary.

This all falls under the rubric of "the more things change, the more they remain the same?".

flow....

 

[mee]

Just because the use of the cruciform was used prior to Christianity has nothing to do with the use of the symbology used in Christianity. Apples and Oranges...

Why do you insist on the attempt of dispelling main stream Christian thought?

This is not acceptable Mee.

v/r

Q

because i like to know the facts, i like to find out about the roots of things and where they stem from. then i will know right from wrong . that is just how i am . others dont seem to mind , one way or the other , so it will not bother them what i say . i am sure they have stong faith in their beliefs even if it is not bible based.

 

[flowperson]

because i like to know the facts, i like to find out about the roots of things and where they stem from. then i will know right from wrong . that is just how i am . others dont seem to mind , one way or the other , so it will not bother them what i say . i am sure they have stong faith in their beliefs even if it is not bible based.

I would have to agree with you on this one mee, however I do not follow as much of a literalist interpretation of scriptures as you seem to. Vive la differance, eh ?

flow...

 

[Quahom1]

because i like to know the facts, i like to find out about the roots of things and where they stem from. then i will know right from wrong . that is just how i am . others dont seem to mind , one way or the other , so it will not bother them what i say . i am sure they have stong faith in their beliefs even if it is not bible based.

What facts? Fact, JW knows more than other Christian denominations? Fact, the cross is a part of the Bible? Fact, making the sign of the cross is "magic"? By who's reckoning...yours? Fact, that the cross is a pagan symbol adopted by Christians who don't know their butt from a hole in the ground? Again, by who's reckoning...yours?

Or fact, you like nothing better than to point out where every other Christian is soooooo wrong and your "sect" is soooooooo right. That is a fact, since the evidence to back it is proliferated throughout the Christian forum?

Or fact, you simply Proselytise your "sect", instead of having discussion because you don't seem to have a mind of your own (again, the proof is in your previous posts)?

Or fact, we are all doomed, so bend over and kiss our collective butts goodbye because your 'sect' states so, and the only survivors heaven will take are yours?

Move over Islam, there's a new kid in town...his name is Jehovah's Witness. He's like you though...he loves to pick apart the Christian faith, at the expense of the regular believer. He doesn't reinforce the faith, but rather tries to de-stabalize the very foundation. See, like you, he thinks the rest of Christianity is on the wrong path...so anything to trip them up is good...

Your "facts" Mee, frankly have much to be desired, but lack thereof.

At least "Catholics" don't condemn people like your 'sect' does. Nor do they preach "musical chairs", of which only 144,000 lucky few (out of 15 billion since the beginning), get a chance to sit in.

I call a spade a spade, when my hand is pushed. Believe it or not, not many people find your 'sect's' teachings or behavior, palatable. Last time I checked, Christianity wasn't supposed to be like bad tasting medicine to the newly accepted...

In the current vernacular like the rest of us "You don't know Jack."

You think you know, but we are here to discuss what we think we know, and maybe find out what we don't know. But you just keep on putting tract after tract out that frankly mean "nothing" to others. Then you decide to start condemning other Christians for certain acts or symbols they might have...

You sir, have a great deal of nerve.

Q

 

[mee]

Or fact, we are all doomed, so bend over and kiss our collective butts goodbye because your 'sect' states so, and the only survivors heaven will take are yours?

i

Q

As the bible tells us , the number to inherit the earth is without number.
After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. And they keep on crying with a loud voice, saying: "Salvation [we owe] to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb. revelation 7;9-10

But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth,​

And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace psalm 37;11

Hope in Jehovah and keep his way,
And he will exalt you to take possession of the earth.



​

When the wicked ones are cut off, you will see [it]. psalm 37;34 these are the bible promises that JW point to . all based on the bible ,and the hope it holds out to all of mankind. GOOD NEWS indeed . it is not my fault if others do not like those promises.

 

[mee]

Sir E. A. Wallis Budge in Amulets and Talismans: "The cross did not become the supreme emblem and symbol of Christianity until the IVth century." No, there is no record of the use of the cross by first-century Christians.