A 'real' Christmas story.

[InChristAlways]

I would just like to put forwards a ‘realists’ version of the birth of Christ. It is done in half – jest so please do not take offence or literally.

A young Mary was betrothed to Joseph, Mary being only 13 years of age [approx] rather liked a younger man [the real father of Jesus]. She had an affair with this young man and become pregnant. Then she thought oh damn! I’ll get stoned to death now, hmm I better think of something quick, so she comes up with the idea of becoming miraculously pregnant by god. Now Joseph being an older man thought hmm, I can have her stoned to death or I can ‘have’ her for the rest of my life, as Mary was rather beautiful he thought the latter was a far better idea! Thus he to contrived a story concerning angels whom told him that the child would be the Son of God. Unfortunately in those days it was not possible to know the sex of a child so Joseph conceived of another cunning plan – so off they went to live in Egypt for a few years! Luckily it was a boy or else we would have had quite another story.

Hi Z. Paul warned his people of "jewish fables" [providing one believes Paul/Saul was an inspired writer]Some "messianic jews" feel Paul was "anti jewish/Law" so they "disown" him and his writings. To each his own. Imagine Jesus being layed in an "animal trough/stall" at birth.
Merry Christ-mas.
Steve

Titus 1:14 not giving heed to Jewish fables and commands of men, turning themselves away from the truth;

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under [the] law, /5/ in order to redeem those who were under [the] law, so that we might receive adoption as children.[/font]

[size=+2]Malachi 3:1 Lo, I am sending My messenger, And he hath prepared a way before Me, And suddenly come in unto his temple[#1964] Doth the Lord whom ye are seeking, Even the messenger of The Covenant, Whom ye are desiring, Lo, he is coming, says the Lord of Hosts. [/size]

 

[Quahom1]

Absolutely so Akbar



I think the questions are there to be asked, I like the idea of an imperfect Jesus! A human being that raised himself to son of man [like god on earth].



Whatever he was, I feel the nature of Jesus raises itself above questioning! So do not despair my Christian friends and have a merry Christmas and a happy new year!

An imperfect Jesus...Cette impossible mon ami. He isn't god on earth. He is God and Author of the Universe. He is, not was, that is the difference between He and all others.

That is why Christians do not despair.

May you and yours also find peace, and a hopeful New Year.

v/r

Q

 

[Tao_Equus]

Hi Z,
I highly reccomend you procure if possible a copy of The Last Temptaion of Christ, and/or A Greek Passion, by Nikos Kazantakis. Both offer a beautiful insight from the perespective of an incredulous observer and set in the contextual framework of the most 'authentic' christian church still around, Greek Orthodoxy. The former book was of course made into the much villified film of the same name but Kazantakis is a master and the book is one of those that stay with you for good.

As for the question/topic raised.....was a bit bold here was'nt it !!

As for an answer, is there a person anywhere who is not in some way sick that does not hold the allegory of the Christ tale as comforting and desirable?? I have as much time for church's as politicians, both are nothing more than institutions of power and control but the story of Christ is not the story of christianity. As for 'imaculate conceptions' statisticly one in ten children do not have the DNA of their alleged biological fathers....so it happens all the time!!

Anyway Wishing one and all a very merry Christmas and a wonderful, prosperous and pleasantly suprising new year.


Regards

TE

 

[taijasi]

He isn't god on earth. He is God and Author of the Universe. He is, not was, that is the difference between He and all others.

Q

With the usual imho's added ... I could of course, only nod. Otherwise, I'm Batman.

But it is Christmas! Season's Greetings to All!

andrew

 

[InChristAlways]

As for an answer, is there a person anywhere who is not in some way sick that does not hold the allegory of the Christ tale as comforting and desirable?? I have as much time for church's as politicians, both are nothing more than institutions of power and control but the story of Christ is not the story of christianity.
As for 'imaculate conceptions' statisticly one in ten children do not have the DNA of their alleged biological fathers....so it happens all the time!!

Hi Tao. If Christ was not born of the Holy Spirit, died, raised up and ascended, then "Jacob/Israel" is still in the "Grave".

I myself believe we should use the word like this "Christ-ianity" as Christ simply means "anointed" as were the priests and kings in the OT. Islam is essentially "Christ-ians" also, as they also believe Jesus Christ was a Great Prophet.

The jewish religion tells us we corrupt the Words of the OT [Isaiah 53 for example] since much of the OT does concern God's firstborn Nation of the "flesh", Israel/Jacob/Judah and Jerusalem.

Jesus was born into a literal "graveyard", as a "great Light" born into a world of Darkness.

(Young) John 1:9 He was the true Light, which doth enlighten every man, coming to the world; 1 John 2:8 again, a new command I write to you, which thing is true in him and in you, because the darkness["grave"] doth pass away, and the True Light doth now shine;

Was the "Messiah/Christ/Savior" only to come for Israel/Judah and open up their "graves" and not the rest of the World?

[size=+2]Ezekiel 37:12 Therefore, prophesy, and thou hast said unto them, thus said the Lord Jehovah: Lo, I am opening your graves, And have brought you up out of your graves, O My people, And brought you in unto the land of Israel. 13 And ye have known that I [am] Jehovah, In My opening your graves, And in My bringing you up out of your graves, O My people. 14 And I have given My Spirit in you, and ye have lived, And I have caused you to rest on your land, And ye have known that I Jehovah, I have spoken, and I have done [it], An affirmation of Jehovah.' 15 And there is a word of Jehovah unto me, saying, 16 `And thou, son of man, take to thee one stick, and write on it, For Judah, and for the sons of Israel, his companions; and take another stick, and write on it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and all the house of Israel, his companions,

Imagine that, OC Judah/Israel's covenant with death would be atoned upon the laying of the Precious Stone of Isaiah 28, the bringing of the NC of Life to them.

[/size]Isaiah 28:17 And I have put judgment for a line, And righteousness for a plummet, And sweep away doth hail the refuge of lies, And the secret hiding-place do waters overflow. 18 And "covered over/atoned" hath been your covenant with death, And your provision with Sheol doth not stand,

Luke 2:34 Then Simeon blessed them, and said to Mary His mother, "Behold, this "setting up"[#2749 "the stauros"?] is destined for the Falling and Rising up[#386 RESURRECTION] of many in Israel, and for a SIGN[#4592] which will be spoken against[#483] 35 yea and a sword shall pierce through thine own soul; that thoughts out of many hearts may be revealed.

 

[_Z_]

Hi Tao

As for the question/topic raised.....was a bit bold here wasn’t it !!

Yep it was, I am a bit like that – of course in the cold light of day, I could have been much more diplomatic! But most people know I am not afraid to question, sometimes the sword of truth comes down hard!



I have been debating this one at another forum and one chap said that the story is more than likely to have been written in retrospect. The ‘real’ story may be completely different – he could have simply grown up ordinarily the same as everyone else then become a great healer and prophet!



Quahom1



Sorry but why would god set himself as one man above all others? It is a great big universe out there – remember this [from when I first came here]…



Point 1. Was Jesus born on all of the planets with intelligent life?

2. If not then are most of the beings in the universe damned?

3. If he was [which would probably be mathematically impossible], then are they all humans?

4. Would they also be Romans & Jews with exactly the same history as earth history, or is the bible different on other planets?



The idea of god becoming a man just for us on this planet is impossible, not just that but I don’t believe he can overwrite the program!





Z

 

[Quahom1]

Hi Tao







Yep it was, I am a bit like that – of course in the cold light of day, I could have been much more diplomatic! But most people know I am not afraid to question, sometimes the sword of truth comes down hard!



I have been debating this one at another forum and one chap said that the story is more than likely to have been written in retrospect. The ‘real’ story may be completely different – he could have simply grown up ordinarily the same as everyone else then become a great healer and prophet!



Quahom1



Sorry but why would god set himself as one man above all others? It is a great big universe out there – remember this [from when I first came here]…



Point 1. Was Jesus born on all of the planets with intelligent life?

2. If not then are most of the beings in the universe damned?

3. If he was [which would probably be mathematically impossible], then are they all humans?

4. Would they also be Romans & Jews with exactly the same history as earth history, or is the bible different on other planets?



The idea of god becoming a man just for us on this planet is impossible, not just that but I don’t believe he can overwrite the program!





Z

Then again we could be the only dupas that disobeyed Him in the first place...

 

[_Z_]

Then again we could be the only dupas that disobeyed Him in the first place...

Ha yes, there are more astral bodies out there than grains of sand on earth – I doubt if all other intelligent life is perfect! Not just that but if you concede that there is other life out there, then you must concede that the bible is not the literal truth!



Irrespective of the council of Nicea, Christians really need to climb down off their high perch and admit Jesus was a human being just like everyone else! He is still probably the greatest man who ever lived! As soon as you say he is more and higher than everyone else then you create an impossible philosophical stance i.e. you remove philosophy altogether and take away humanities higher nature and ever-present quest for truth! Christians may feel insulted at my heavy sword of truth – but I [and many millions of others] am insulted by the notion of Jesus as the ‘Son of god’ rather than Jesus whom raised himself to this likeness! Thus I feel I have every right to challenge this!!!!



Unless you [or anyone else] can defeat the red message in my former post – which I believe is impossible as the simple logic stands up for itself – then its humble time my friend!



Z

 

[InLove]

Hello _Z_, and Peace to All Here--

I am compelled to address a couple of ideas brought up on this thread, especially the last post. First, let me say that it looked like, for a while, there was a somewhat congenial agreement to disagree. Not sure it is still there, but I hope so.

Irrespective of the council of Nicea, Christians really need to climb down off their high perch and admit Jesus was a human being just like everyone else! He is still probably the greatest man who ever lived! As soon as you say he is more and higher than everyone else then you create an impossible philosophical stance i.e. you remove philosophy altogether and take away humanities higher nature and ever-present quest for truth! Christians may feel insulted at my heavy sword of truth – but I [and many millions of others] am insulted by the notion of Jesus as the ‘Son of god’ rather than Jesus whom raised himself to this likeness! Thus I feel I have every right to challenge this!!!!

There are many Christians--true ones--who are deeply saddened when they see non-believers being "put down" in the name of Christ. That is not what our dear Savior came to teach us, and it is not what He did. We are supposed to follow Him, and He Himself instructed us not to judge others, or we will be judged for doing so. That said, I am equally saddened by statements such as yours that paint all Christians as uppity and judgmental, with better-than-thou dispositions. To some unbelievers, it seems to be an automatic psychological connection: Christian=arrogant, uncaring, hateful. But surely you know this is not true--just read back through the thread at some of the gentle and diplomatic words that have come to you through believers in Christ.

I would also like to comment that I knew Christ in Spirit before I ever heard of the Council at Nicea.

As for Christ being the greatest man that ever lived, or a tremendous philosopher, or a wonderful guy--I must submit (and probably you have heard it before) that this is just faulty reasoning to me. If He went around spouting untruths, then he can be none of the above.

And of course, you have every right to challenge this--who said you didn't? If someone said this, they are mistaken. However, I have just as much right to believe what I believe, regardless of your challenge. And to defend my beliefs, if I am so inclined.

Unless you [or anyone else] can defeat the red message in my former post – which I believe is impossible as the simple logic stands up for itself – then its humble time my friend!

Your red message was:

Point 1. Was Jesus born on all of the planets with intelligent life?

2. If not then are most of the beings in the universe damned?

3. If he was [which would probably be mathematically impossible], then are they all humans?

4. Would they also be Romans & Jews with exactly the same history as earth history, or is the bible different on other planets?

Well, if there is life on other planets (and there very well may be) I figure that the Creator I believe in has the best interest of His entire creation at heart--and therefore, so does my Savior, who was there in the beginning.

You say that unless someone can "defeat" what you describe as simple logic that you believe stands up for itself, then you are right. However, unless you can prove what you challenge me to defeat, then your beliefs are just as much your opinion in my eyes as my beliefs are in yours.

InPeace,
InLove

 

[_Z_]

There are many Christians--true ones--who are deeply saddened when they see non-believers being "put down" in the name of Christ. That is not what our dear Savoir came to teach us, and it is not what He did

Absolutely!!! I know many, and I get on with them very well and have interesting debates with them, I am only attacking what I consider to be ignorance i.e. those who are not like this!



Yes I must say that the Christians here have reacted very courteously and risen above it, which is most admirable – but I did not write the thread as an attack, it was simply a literal interpretation from an alternate perspective – I am trying to show that it is a story that was most likely written in retrospect to glorify someone who in my opinion didn’t need it. The thing is that it’s aspects like a ‘virgin Mary,’ and statements that say everyone has to follow Christ or they cannot get into heaven that makes some Christians feel superior.

Well, if there is life on other planets (and there very well may be) I figure that the Creator I believe in has the best interest of His entire creation at heart--and therefore, so does my Savoir, who was there in the beginning

But Christ cannot have been born on all planets with intelligent life and still be the same Christ - my god can you imagine being crucified billions of times! Unless you believe in the duplicity of god? His message would be different – relative to the given world, there would be no Jews and Romans and no bible! There is no beginning to the universe! And god is surely something more universal – to define him as human male and of the nature of Christ, limits his scope somewhat, where would one draw the lines of definition and where does god end and that which is not god begin. I would personally start at the infinite, which is boundless and more importantly ‘incomparative’ [please take note of that meaning!!!] – drawing ‘god’ as human the opposite – comparative and limiting.



The logic has nothing to do with belief.



I’ll add some more…



5. If any two planets arrive at a relative historical point that Jesus should be born, then he would have to divide into two!



6. It is impossible to have duel synchronous histories! [Two or more planets with the same histories]



7. Why does god want to ‘save’ the entire universe – why not simply create perfection in the first place!



8. One cannot create what is already there i.e. the universe always exists in non-linear time and there was no ‘beginning’. [It is like a circle] therefore god cannot be the creator of the universe – it exists in its own right!



9. The truth is naked! No one can speak it – it may only be directed to or inferred. Knowing this why would god make himself manifest to deliver his word – and can he not speak?



10. We are all god as man! All of existence is god in their given form, [if god is a creator] god is thence universal.





All I wish for is Christians to admit Jesus is not god and that the trinity is false. Hmm that’s quite a lot isn’t it!





Z

 

[Quahom1]

Ha yes, there are more astral bodies out there than grains of sand on earth – I doubt if all other intelligent life is perfect! Not just that but if you concede that there is other life out there, then you must concede that the bible is not the literal truth!



Irrespective of the council of Nicea, Christians really need to climb down off their high perch and admit Jesus was a human being just like everyone else! He is still probably the greatest man who ever lived! As soon as you say he is more and higher than everyone else then you create an impossible philosophical stance i.e. you remove philosophy altogether and take away humanities higher nature and ever-present quest for truth! Christians may feel insulted at my heavy sword of truth – but I [and many millions of others] am insulted by the notion of Jesus as the ‘Son of god’ rather than Jesus whom raised himself to this likeness! Thus I feel I have every right to challenge this!!!!



Unless you [or anyone else] can defeat the red message in my former post – which I believe is impossible as the simple logic stands up for itself – then its humble time my friend!



Z

The Bible says nothing conclusive about other beings not existing but us. In fact Jesus states there are other sheep of a different fold that He must gather...

No one must concede anything. Really, just because one does not receive an answer to one's own satisfaction does not render the issue false, or true.

It is absolutely logical and true to claim that matter can not attain a velocity beyond that of the speed of light, and yet remain matter...until quantum physics are involved. Then the claim is false. It all depends on what set of rules one is using to determine the "truth" or falicy of an issue.

v/r

Q

 

[InLove]

But Christ cannot have been born on all planets with intelligent life and still be the same Christ - my god can you imagine being crucified billions of times! Unless you believe in the duplicity of god? His message would be different – relative to the given world, there would be no Jews and Romans and no bible! There is no beginning to the universe! And god is surely something more universal – to define him as human male and of the nature of Christ, limits his scope somewhat, where would one draw the lines of definition and where does god end and that which is not god begin. I would personally start at the infinite, which is boundless and more importantly ‘incomparative’ [please take note of that meaning!!!] – drawing ‘god’ as human the opposite – comparative and limiting.

But the Bible addresses Christ's mission here on earth--yes it reveals some about the universe and other beings, and names the Creator to be the eternal and (unborn and undying) ruler of all. But the Word given to us here on this planet relates to us, I believe.

To me, (and I am saying this in all sincerity--not to belittle your beliefs at all, for you are certainly entitled to them) it is your way of seeing God that limits Him. I know that I do not know everything about Him (I use "Him" out of convenience and His own example, but I do not refer to gender here--there are just many aspects of God that are difficult to express, perhaps impossible). Yes, I do believe in the Trinity aspect, but I do not limit God to it.

To me, the philosophy presented in the Word of God (and the proof of it to my own spirit) is the most truthful and sensible philosophy ever presented to this world--basically that Love conquers all. Why not from the very beginning, you ask? Well, I believe that we must see all sides of things before we can know the true nature of this Love--and yes, God's Creation suffers in order to grow. But in the philosophy of Love--that is, the sacrifice of Christ--God suffers more. How can I tell Love how to design me when Love is my Creator?

Why would I limit God and say that He cannot present Himself however He pleases? Especially when His very own Spirit witnesses to me that He is Love, and Love has no desire to do anything other than love His creation toward godliness? His timing is different than what we can understand. Yes, we are given what we refer to as "The Creation Story", but I assure you--okay, wait--I believe, that we are not fully created yet!

All I wish for is Christians to admit Jesus is not god and that the trinity is false. Hmm that’s quite a lot isn’t it!

Hmmm..hope that wasn't what you wanted for Christmas....


InPeace,
InLove

 

[InLove]

The Bible says nothing conclusive about other beings not existing but us. In fact Jesus states there are other sheep of a different fold that He must gather...

No one must concede anything. Really, just because one does not receive an answer to one's own satisfaction does not render the issue false, or true.

It is absolutely logical and true to claim that matter can not attain a velocity beyond that of the speed of light, and yet remain matter...until quantum physics are involved. Then the claim is false. It all depends on what set of rules one is using to determine the "truth" or falicy of an issue.

...Or one can put it this way, which is much more concise .

(Dontcha just love simultaneous posting?)

InPeace,
InLove

 

[InChristAlways]

Why would I limit God and say that He cannot present Himself however He pleases? Especially when His very own Spirit witnesses to me that He is Love, and Love has no desire to do anything other than love His creation toward godliness? His timing is different than what we can understand. Yes, we are given what we refer to as "The Creation Story", but I assure you--okay, wait--I believe, that we are not fully created yet!

Hi InLove. Perhaps "Manifested" might be a better word?

1 John 1:2 the life was manifested [#5319], and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested [#5319] to us --

Originally Posted by _Z_
All I wish for is Christians to admit Jesus is not god and that the trinity is false. Hmm that’s quite a lot isn’t it!

Hi Z. The word "trinity" is not in the bible though Godhead is.

Colossians 2:9 because in him doth tabernacle all the fulness of the Godhead [#2320] bodily,

2320. theotes theh-ot'-ace from 2316; divinity (abstractly):--godhead.2316. theos theh'-os of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with 3588) the supreme Divinity; figuratively, a magistrate; by Hebraism, very:--X exceeding, God, god(-ly, -ward).

Perhaps revelation can give us some "clues".

Reve 19:13 He [was] clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His Name is called The Word of God.

Revelation 12:1 Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. 2 Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth. 5 She bore a male Child who was to SHEPHERD all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.

Revelation 2:18 " And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write, ' These things says the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet like fine brass:

 

[InLove]

Hi, InChristAlways--

Sure, "manifest" and "godhead" work (although I have seen other meanings offered up for this term, whereas the phrase "Trinity" always refers to the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit--with the exception of terminology used by those who are concerned about gender, which is not the issue here).

Same message.

InPeace,
InLove

 

[InLove]

Hi, InChristAlways--

Hope my last post did not sound rude--that was not my intent at all, but after re-reading it, I thought I should say so. It is just that I am more concerned with the meaning of the message than I am with semantics. But I do see what you mean.

I will try to provide you with some definitions I have from some well-respected Christian references that illustrate how "Godhead" is often used in a way which is more limiting than the term "Trinity", but I think that is probably for another thread sometime. It may take me a while--I am currently facing one particular mountain that will be difficult to climb unless I keep the proverbial pebbles out of my shoes.

(Edited to add: Perhaps the word "be" would work just as well as "present" or "manifest", as it is actually what God chose to call Himself--at least a form of it, as in "I AM"?)

Anyway, back to the conversation at hand....

InPeace,
InLove

 

[_Z_]

Q,

It is absolutely logical and true to claim that matter can not attain a velocity beyond that of the speed of light, and yet remain matter...until quantum physics are involved. Then the claim is false. It all depends on what set of rules one is using to determine the "truth" or fallacy of an issue

Good point! The truth is naked – one can only arrive at partial truths, as I would put it. Hence there is no literal truth in the bible or anywhere else; it is a wonderful piece of philosophical work if not taken literally!



Inlove,

But the Bible addresses Christ's mission here on earth--yes it reveals some about the universe and other beings, and names the Creator to be the eternal and (unborn and undying) ruler of all. But the Word given to us here on this planet relates to us, I believe.

Nothing wrong with Christ being a messenger for us on planet earth. But are the billions of other messengers then not the Son of God? What’s so special about us that god would give up on all those other planets?

It is your way of seeing God that limits Him.

I see the opposite as being true [no offence meant or taken]. But that is a thread of its own.

To me, the philosophy presented in the Word of God

It is the very philosophical nature of us humans that is dulled by the word of God, as this is dogma. Throughout history we have been seekers and there are many ‘truths’ out there – much of it in the bible probably more in the Upanishads and some interesting stuff in the Egyptian book of the dead. If god can speak [as he did to Moses] then now would be the perfect time to do it again – we could stick in on DVD and it would be undisputable y’know. Of course if he did speak then this would destroy our human nature to philosophise as concerns the truth etc, indeed is it not this very process that leads us to greater heights of understanding!

Why would I limit God and say that He cannot present Himself however He pleases?

Because all things are subject to principle even if he created them in the first place which I don’t believe. God would only have to create a single point then a million principles come into effect, creation is not magic, if there were a way to overwrite the program then god wouldn’t be the only person to do it and there would be chaos. Perhaps we need a thread asking if god is a creator! But I don’t want you guys n gals to think I am here to attack you all the time as I have also defended Christianity on many occasions – I am not actually against it, that would just be foolish as there is so much one can learn – one has to question to educate!

Hmmm..Hope that wasn't what you wanted for Christmas....

Ha ha yes I realised this as I was typing – no one are ever going to change there minds are they!



Thanx inlove, your post made a lot of sense – even if I did argue against it!



Inchristalways,

1 John 1:2 the life was manifested [#5319], and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested [#5319] to us

So eternal life was ‘manifested’ into limited life? Ah but that was the apple in Eden yes, that doomed humanity - and Eden existed on every planet in existence! Then before that everyone were immortal? Personally I wouldn’t do such a terrible thing to my children!

The word "trinity" is not in the bible though Godhead is

Interesting! I imagine a Hindu painting of the godhead with peoples of all races represented; now I would add all alien intelligence and animals etc. I wonder what an alien heaven would be like or would they share ours! What I am saying is where do you draw the lines! Does godhead gradually merge with minutely lesser beings then they to the next down the line, where does it end or is it universal i.e. everything is god thence we are all sons of god in that sense.

Colossians 2:9 because in him doth tabernacle all the fulness of the Godhead [#2320] bodily,

What does this mean? And what actually is a tabernacle? Godhead – bodily, I would take to mean the above statement that we are sons of god? Please correct me if I have misunderstood the meaning of this.

Reve 19:13 He [was] clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His Name is called The Word of God.

Again I contest that a word cannot mean the truth, as it is naked. It’s that ole literalist thing again isn’t it!

Revelation 12:1 Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. 2 Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth. 5 She bore a male Child who was to SHEPHERD all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.

Hence my version of the story [which is of course as untrue as the actual story]! It just apears to be ridiculous [if literal] and I would hate to be ruled with a rod of iron I would stand there and take it until beaten to death and consider myself superior even if damned to hell for it! How un- philosophical and barbarous!



Z

 

[InLove]

Hey, _Z_--peace!

I am glad you responded. I am not willing to let this conversation die, for I believe it is a worthwhile one, and I find it interesting.

I am, however, quite tired at the moment. (Please, now--don't you take this as a retreat on my part .)

But as I mentioned, I do have a personal mountain (maybe a whole range) to deal with at the moment--and I am only in the foothills right now.

I may or may not be able to post much in the upcoming weeks. I will have to wait and see. But I want you to know that I have enjoyed this conversation with you, and hope to continue it, sooner or later. (I have this crazy idea that our thinking may not be as different as it appears, in some respects.)

Well, for today, anyway--InLove over and out and at peace.

 

[InChristAlways]

....Nothing wrong with Christ being a messenger for us on planet earth. But are the billions of other messengers then not the Son of God? What’s so special about us that god would give up on all those other planets? ...........

Hence my version of the story [which is of course as untrue as the actual story]! It just apears to be ridiculous [if literal] and I would hate to be ruled with a rod of iron I would stand there and take it until beaten to death and consider myself superior even if damned to hell for it! How un- philosophical and barbarous!

Hi Z. Perhaps other planets have already bowed the knee and they are waiting on us to also bow to God, but our own planet was promised a Chief Sheperd and Savior according to our Bible?

Btw the way, the word is "Shepherd", not rule and I wish more translations would use that word. The word for "rod" is a "staff" which Shepherds also used to ward off enemies of the flock, iron just happens to be stronger than wood.. All symbolic of course.

Reve 12: 5 She bore a male Childwho was to SHEPHERD [#4165] all nations with a rod/staff of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.

4165. poimaino poy-mah'-ee-no from 4166; to tend as a shepherd of (figuratively, superviser):--feed (cattle), rule.4166. poimen poy-mane' of uncertain affinity; a shepherd (literally or figuratively):--shepherd, pastor..

After all the Bible promised to send us a Shepherd.

Ezekiel 34:23 "I will establish one Shepherd over them, and he shall feed them -- My servant David. He shall feed them and be their shepherd.

Since God cannot Lie, Every knee will bow the knee and all of His enemies will be made His footstool, either in this age or the ages of ages to come.

Isaiah 43:23 I have sworn by Myself; The word has gone out of My mouth [in] righteousness, And shall not return, That to Me every knee shall bow, Every tongue shall take an oath. 24 He shall say, 'Surely in the LORD I have righteousness and strength. To Him [men] shall come, And all shall be ashamed Who are incensed against Him.

That would be kind of hard for God to do if He throws all the wicked into "Hellfire" forever wouldn't it? Is this what you are referring to?

Revelation 14:11 and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.

Btw Z, what is your short view of what happens after death so I can get an idea where you are coming from. Thanks brother, and peace and love to you and yours.

 

[Quahom1]

Q,





Good point! The truth is naked – one can only arrive at partial truths, as I would put it. Hence there is no literal truth in the bible or anywhere else; it is a wonderful piece of philosophical work if not taken literally!

Absolute fallacy. In macro physics, what I stated was absolutely true. In Quantum physics what I state is absolutely false...

Now you explain logically, the conundrum...

v/r

Q

Jesus defies all logic (as we know it). His concept is nuts to the most logical of us. But once understood, it is the most logical way of things that we can conceive of. In short my friend, Jesus is Lord.

Think out side of the box...Hellenist...

v/r

Q