Which is more important?

[lunamoth]

Having now delved into the article, The Pauline Conspiracy, I think it is very safe to assume that I must and will address it in a point-by-point manner, for I can do no other thing.

More power to you, InLove! This challenge has been laid down since I first started posting here two years ago, and you are the first to rise to it.

cheers,
lunamoth

 

[Vajradhara]

Namaste InLove,



thank you for the thoughtful post.

i just wanted to let you know that i'll have to respond to this when i have a bit more time, though i have read and appreciate the points you are making

metta,

~v

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards to all!

Just a quick note to let all of you know I have not forgotten you or this thread. I am appreciating the conversation, and learning a bit as well.

I appreciate the link to the Paul / James controversy, certainly that is the best meme model for me to use in developing my thoughts on this subject. I appreciate that at least in this context the Pauline detractors at least have an opportunity to present the case in an practical application situation. (I haven't taken the time yet to read "Pauline Conspiracy," so I am going by the context of other conversations elsewhere in this forum.)

I do hope though, that the original idea of "works" from multi-faith contributors is not lost or forgotten. I would very much like to see contributions from other faith walks regarding what "works" are encouraged for the sake of "salvation" (elevation, transmigration, karmic regeneration, etc.).

I appreciate everybody's contributions so far. Thank you all, very much!

 

[Vajradhara]

Namaste InLove,

thank you for the post.

Thanks for your thoughtful post, as well as your encouragement regarding my health. This is the first time in my adult life that I have been on this side of physical illness. I have, in the past, always been in the role of caregiver, so this is a bit different for me. At least, because of past experiences, I am able to guess what those around me are going through. Everything for a reason—just so hard to know what those reasons are until we see why later. I have learned to live knowing this, and it helps me to “ride with the tide and roll with the flow” wherever and whenever it does not compromise my witness or grieve the Spirit.

indeed, seeing things from another perspective is quite illuminating, in my view. it is hard to really put oneself into anothers perspective, in my view, unless we undergo the same sort of experience. even then, each of us experience the same phenomena differently, predicated on our mental and emotional capacities, heck, sometimes even our physical capacities.

i took a vision test once and they determined that i was color blind, red/green. of course, to me, red things look red and green things look green.. but, apparently, this is not the case!

i, honestly, have no idea what they look like! however, people seem to agree with me when i point out something and say it is green or red... so, perhaps, that silly test was wrong... though, in truth, i couldn't see the numbers or letters in the blot pattern.

Both James and Jesus were brought up in strict observance of Mosaic Law, as was Paul.

i can find no substantiation to Paul being raised to observe the Torah, which is also covered in the article

it's an excellent article, really.

I think it was totally righteous that Paul did agree to continue to abide by the Jewish rituals.

the only issue with this is that he went right on doing what he had been doing all along. he didn't respect the Jerusalem Church and didn't feel that they had much authority over him, he that was specially chosen by God, Himself, to spread the Gospel to the Gentile. quite the opposite of Jesus' claims that he was here for the lost sheep of Israel, in my view.

heck, Paul even claims the title of Nazarite for himself. the only being that this term is applied to in the Christian Testament is Jesus.

After all, he was Jewish, and in order to have any chance of being taken seriously by Jewish elders, he would need to do this. But I do not believe that his reason for doing it was because he felt “dirty”. His specific commission was to take the message of Christ to all the world—this meant that he had to do whatever it took, within the guidance of that message, to offend as little as possible (not an easy thing in the presence of either the Jews or the Gentiles, I am sure!).

there is much about Sauls so called conversion that doesnt' line up and, not least of which his claim to being healed and then his laments, later on, that he hasn't been healed. the various beings that were supposed to have been a witness to this event on the road to Damascus is different in every account.. sometimes they see the light, other times they don't.. heck, at one point Paul claims that nobody saw it but him.

As far as one’s heart being changed, I cannot think of any example more compelling than that of Saul of Tarsus/Paul.

we have very different views on this. it is my view that Saul is a 5th Column in the Christian tradition.

http://www.answers.com/topic/fifth-column

As far as action and deeds go, who did more?

in which tradition, the Christian one? well, i'd put Peter and James higher up on this list than i would Saul, but that is just my opinion based on my own study.

in regards to other traditions, there is a long line of beings whose works seem to exemplify the changed nature of their being, to wit: the Mahatma Gandhi, Mother Teresa, Martin Luther King, Jr, Angulia Mura and more.

Angulia Mura had a necklance made of finger bones from his victims. he went to a Shaman (well, we don't call them that, but that seems to be a close enough English equilivent) who told him that if he killed 1,000 people, he would have great worldly wealth and power. one day he was in the forest and saw the back of a monk walking along the path. he generated the thought of killing this monk to get the last bone for his necklace that had 999 bones. as he got close enough to strike and withdrew his weapon, the monk turned around and looked at him. Angulia exlaimed to him "what is it that is coming from you which makes my hand stay its course?" the monk replied "compassion." Angulia asked, why are you not afraid that i will kill you and add your bones to my necklace, don't you know who i am? the monk relplied; "yes, i know who you are. Wisdom is why i do not fear." Angulia was so overcome by the monks serenity and compassion that he asked how it was that this monk had these qualities, at which point the monk explained the Four Noble Truths and the Noble Eightfold path and asked Angulia if he would accompany him to the monestary to hear a teaching. Angulia say yes and off they went.

the monk was the Buddha Shakyamuni and Angulia repented of his actions and took up the practice of the Dharma, eventually removing all the negative karma from his actions and attaining liberation.

Saul was “a man with a plan”—to kill Christians.

as far as i can tell, Saul would have no authority to kill anyone, let alone Jews. that aspect was reserved for the Roman Governer of the area. my reading of it is such that Saul appears to be someone that was going around and helping to prosecute the beings that were following Jesus' teachings.

nevertheless, as we are sort of talking about works v. faith, perhaps this part of the discussion is more of a distraction than on point?

i tend, as you may have noticed, to ramble on about all manner of things which are often unrelated to the topic at hand

Christian love is, to me, never harsh.

i suspect you are not a homosexual, however, many so-called Christians would "love" these beings to death, if they could.... and, unfortunately, some do.

i suppose that, all things being equal, i would rather Christians be compassionate towards me rather than love me. love is the flipside of hate, and we all (i think) know how easy it can be to go from loving something to hating them, with as much or more passion than before.

Misunderstood, maybe. And much maligned, both from many who claim to know “her”, as well as from those who view her from afar. And, you are correct—it is by far those who falsely claim her that do her the most harm. The irony (or paradox) is that she only loves them more, mixing the dust into a salve to offer them for their blindness.

i'm not sure i'm following. are you saying that love is a sentient being?

Vajradhara, I’d like you to know that I am honored to be speaking with you like this. I have often admired your posts, and never really gotten to talk with you much.

thank you for the kind words i am enjoying our coversation as well

I know that our views are different, but that is what makes things interesting. Now, it seems I have some reading to do….Lemmee see…where is Ingersoll, again, and then there is the Pauline Conspiracy stuff….hmmmm…


InPeace,
InLove

indeed... i've got a backlog of books to read that should keep me occuppied for a while... yet... funnily enough, that doesn't seem to prevent me from acquiring more of them

metta,

~v

 

[InLove]

Hi--Peace All,

The kind and interested responses are so appreciated here. Vaj, I am so missing being able to delve into that perpetual backlog of reading you and I have in common! I, too, have some vision problems that were in place before this present illness and its accompanying medications made it even more difficult for me to read. But I have dealt with these ongoing problems all my life, and I am banking that this one is only temporary. It is just that I figured if I was going to be "down" for a while, I was really going to catch up on my reading and writing! Ughh!!

By the way, I thought you might relate to a story I was told about my step-granddad--he could not tell red from green either! According to the account from many years ago, he moved out of his home state for a while, and when he returned, there were all kinds of "newfangled devices" there called "traffic lights" Well, he had seen them before in the other state, and had memorized the order of the red and green lights, but apparently either his home state did not set them up correctly, or just did them differently! As you can imagine, he had more than a little trouble until he got that all figured out...poor guy.

You have some good points I want to address eventually, one of which is that I think perhaps I thought you were also referring to Love as a sentient being when you stated that Christian Love was a harsh mistress. Hmmm....well, as you know, I do not feel that way; however, now that you mention it, yes--I definitely see Love as a sentient being, the Original, even! It is a good question.

I want to write more, but what I am doing early this morning is mainly posting to just keep in touch briefly on this thread and then maybe if I can manage, to make a couple of short posts maybe in the lounge and on another board, explaining a little about why I probably won't be around much for the next few weeks. I know I have sort of touched on it before, but I really did not know how things were going to go. If they continue the way they are right now, I will be here less and less for a while.

But I won't forget these good talks, and not to worry, Luna--I won't forget the other either!

Love you all--please lift me up in your own ways. I miss my time here, and I do think of you and lift you up as well.

InPeace,
InLove

 

[Vajradhara]

Namaste inLove,


thank you for the post and the kind words.

please, take yourr time our conversation will be here when you are ready and able to pick it up again.

be well!

metta,

~v