seems most Messianic Jews I've met are Christians that quit reading the New Testament and instead decided to study the texts that Jesus did...where as Jews for Jesus, seem to be largely Jews that have converted to Christianity...am I misled?
I
InChristAlways
Guest
In the same respect, what about the muslims "Koran" and the OT/NT?
I have heard a lot of messianics debunk Paul as being an Apostle of Christ and yes, Paul is difficult to "understand" as Peter mentioned and even he acknowledged Paul as inspired [unless this was an "interpolation"] .wil said:
2 peter 3:16 as also in all his [Paul/Saul] epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable [people] twist to their own destruction, as [they do] also the rest of the Scriptures.
This site does one of the best jobs I have seen on telling jews why they should believe Jesus is their messiah, but at the expense of calling Paul a false apostle.
This is one "outside source" that I am referring to, and I didn't know about it until I was discussing Scripture with messianics awhile back. I believe this has caused many Christian messianics to actually leave Christ and join Islam, Judaism or just turn Atheist by causing more "confusion" in Christianity. Just my humble thoughts.
Steve
http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/paulthe.htm
There are a number of historical facts, quotations from Paul, and quotations from Yahshua recorded in the New Testament that leave us with some quite compelling evidence against his apostleship being recognized in heaven. There are several interesting facts surrounding this case that should be noted and kept in mind. They are:
http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/messiah.htm
There is one other Messianic prophecy that begs to be dealt with here that Christianity has run away with as proof of Yahshua being YHWH God the Father.
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Might-god, Everlasting-father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David and over his kingdom, to order it and establish it with judgment and justice from that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this. Isaiah 9:6,7 ......
.............And in the following Messianic prophecy concerning the suffering servant, God speaks of Messiah seeing his descendants.
.............And in the following Messianic prophecy concerning the suffering servant, God speaks of Messiah seeing his descendants.
Yet it pleased YHWH to bruise him; He has put him to grief. When You make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed (children), He shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of YHWH shall prosper in his hand. Isaiah 53:10
Yes, Yahshua will return and become an everlasting father!
Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
Reading these posts I had a thought that too much emphasis was put on reading the words in the bible.. having been a self-proclaimed Christian my whole life and having read the bible since youth... yet I was not a born again with a baptism by the Spirit Christian until 3 years ago.
Reading the bible is a whole different experience to me then it was when I was younger.. I see what is behind the words in the bible now and not the surface of them. Any literate person can read the words and get an understanding of them.. but I know from my own personal experiences that its so much more than that. I read something now and I get it down to the spiritual core of my being and I finally get it...It clicks. The same words I had read my whole life now have such a deep meaning that I fall face down in praise and am in awe of my Lord.
At the risk of flaming I personally believe that people that go from Christian to another faith were either not fully committed to Jesus Christ or had not been baptized by the Holy Spirit. We cannot possibly comprehend truth without the Spirit of truth and once convicted of that truth.. how can you believe a lie? Your whole being rejects it as such because we are spirit beings housed in a body which is dead to things of the spirit.
FS
Reading the bible is a whole different experience to me then it was when I was younger.. I see what is behind the words in the bible now and not the surface of them. Any literate person can read the words and get an understanding of them.. but I know from my own personal experiences that its so much more than that. I read something now and I get it down to the spiritual core of my being and I finally get it...It clicks. The same words I had read my whole life now have such a deep meaning that I fall face down in praise and am in awe of my Lord.
At the risk of flaming I personally believe that people that go from Christian to another faith were either not fully committed to Jesus Christ or had not been baptized by the Holy Spirit. We cannot possibly comprehend truth without the Spirit of truth and once convicted of that truth.. how can you believe a lie? Your whole being rejects it as such because we are spirit beings housed in a body which is dead to things of the spirit.
FS
B
Bandit
Guest
Faithfulservant said:
nice testimony Faithful. i feel the same & will jump into the frying pan with you. if we get our heads chopped off...oh well. then we get to go see the one true head & get our one true head put back on who is Jesus.
the Holy Ghost is what will witness with our spirit that it is true. there are scriptures for it but like you say, it is the Spirit that dwells in us & tells us it is true making us that aware & it makes it impossible to look back.
Dondi
Well-Known Member
InChristAlways said:
On the first point, namely about the Qu'ran. When dealing with any religion, the test for truth must come down to original sources. Islam is loosely based on the Judeo-Christian traditions. Muslims believe that Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus were all prophets sent from God for His people at various times in history. In addition, they believe that Mohammed was the last prophet from which the Qu'ran has been dictated. To an extent, they believe that the original OT/NT scriptures were given by the past prophets, but that the OT/NT is somehow deficent in presenting the Truth as Muslims know it. Perhaps they feel that the Bible has somehow become corrupted. From the many Muslim web sites I have visited that have contested the validity of the Bible, I'd say that was a fair bet. So the Qu'ran was sent to restore the Truth to the world.
So for Christians who get caught up in conversations with Muslims and find what appears to be many biblical "contradictions" (for one example, the apparent discrepancy of Paul supporting salvation by grace through faith alone and James supporting salvation through faith and works), they end up questioning the Bible and, having become discouraged, eventually fall away and end up believing the Qu'ran and follow Islam. I'm sure there are other factors involved, but that's the intent of Islamic teachings--to get people to believe in the Qu'ran and Allah's final prophet, Mohammed. To the Muslim, the Qu'ran is the final authority in all things spiritual and relating to God. So anything contradicting what's written in the Qu'ran is automatically rejected.
But then this begs the question---If God is all-powerful, why couldn't He preserve His original Word (i.e OT/NT), if indeed filled with contradictions? Sure, some of these can be attributed to transmission errors, but there are many examples involving doctrinal issues.
I believe that one must establish the truthfulness of the original sources in order to determine the truth. That's not always easy to do when dealing with such ancient manuscripts. The foundation for any religion must be solid. In this case, one must start with the Old Testament, establish it's truthfulness, then move on to Christianity and do the same thing. If the truthfullness of the OT can be reasonable established, then we can have faith that God is faithful to His Word, for the Jewish people, for that is who the OT was written for.
Therefore, IMO, if the OT is trustworthy, THEN anything that occurs after this document must be tested agianst the OT for truthfulness. This applies to the New Testament and well as the Qu'ran, or any other subsequent scriptures (i.e, the Apochopha,Gnostic Gospels, Book of Mormon, Watchtower publications, The Gospel According to Calvin and Hobbes, whatever).
As far as prostylising Jews with the Gospels at the expense of discrediting Paul, I don't think most Christians will dispute Paul's writings isn't Scripture. Whoever has established the aforementioned websight is in the minute minority when it comes to the Apostleship of Paul and is being dishonest to the Jewish people for painting Paul in that light.
But that just proves my point. Here is one website who is going against the grain in trying to establish the falsehood of the Apostle Paul, which is opposed to orthodox or conventional Christianity. This is why the type of source for learning the truth is so essential. If a person is not grounded in the scriptures, he is going to fall for this type of thing.
Saltmeister
The Dangerous Dinner
I think there are different reasons why people turn to Islam and Judaism. Some convert to Judaism because of "tradition." Others to Islam because of its approach to life. I think often they convert because they don't really understand what it means to be Christian.
Something Judaism and Islam have in common are an emphasis on rules. Christianity de-emphasises rules. Maybe we can understand why people leave Christianity by understanding more about what Christianity represents and whether these people understood it or not.
Rules are just an approach to life. Rules don't always reflect people's attitudes. Every culture and every individual has his own way of expressing his attitudes, feelings and thoughts. This means that a person may not actually be doing the wrong thing even though he's not following the rules as he is told. People create rules only so that there is a common way of expressing one's attitudes. It eliminates confusion over right and wrong.
But then . . . what happens if there is a foreigner who doesn't understand the rules or what they represent? He breaks the rules, but doesn't have the wrong attitudes that the rules represent. Yet he is condemned for breaking them. People who don't conform or have a different approach to life are condemned all because they have a different way of expressing their attitudes -- whether it's with greetings, right way of starting a conversation, dress code or mating!!!!
This is what Paul warned about -- don't judge people by rules. Put yourself in their shoes and try to find out their true attitudes. Only then can you figure out whether their behaviour or way of thinking is wrong. Take the wood out of your eye.
If rules can't define right and wrong, then we don't really need them. All we need is the attitudes they represent. The reason why we often believe in rules is because we're gullible. God gave us a conscience. We simply don't use it.
Judaism and Islam both teach us to have one approach to life. This may actually create problems rather than solving them. Some may start thinking that this one approach is what makes them better than those who don't conform to this approach. If you don't conform you're not doing it right is what you might be told.
Really? Am I doing it wrong then? Paul says otherwise!!!! This is what Paul is saying in Romans 14:1-12 (Don't Judge Your Brother). God didn't create us all to be the same. We are actually all unique and different. This means that there is no "one size fits all model" and no single approach suits everybody perfectly. Because God made us all different we all function differently and we each have a different approach that works for us.
We are to be treated equally, even though God didn't make us equal. Some of us are rich, some poor. Some are more intelligent than others. Some have more skill than others. Some are strong, some weak. Some masters, others slave. But inequality doesn't mean some are "better" or more important than others. It just means that God created us with different parameters.
Although we function differently and each require a different approach we do have something in common. God created us to do good. Our common goal is to think, act and function as beings producing the fruit of love, patience, kindness, compassion, humility and contentment. This is the function of life -- to bear fruit!!!
Human beings are a bit like plants. It's just that we're spiritual plants rather than physical plants. Physical plants don't have a mind of their own and can't choose how they want to grow. As spiritual plants we do have a mind of our own. We choose how we want to grow. Every plant's functions are different. Not all plants are the same.
One approach to life? I don't buy it. It doesn't sound very natural to me.
People converting to Judaism/Islam from Christianity?
Who knows? Maybe it's because they were never properly told that this is what the Christian Gospel means. Maybe they didn't see the "natural side" of the Christian faith.
Not everyone sees the same picture.
I think it goes both ways. You may actually see a "natural side" to all three faiths -- Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Christians reject Judaism and Islam because they find it foreign, primitive, baseless, or "lacking," and Jews and Muslims reject Christianity because they find it foreign, primitive, baseless, or "lacking." It's pride that often keeps us seeing from this "natural side."
Whether natural or not, I still believe there is only One Truth. Many religions have a natural side, but only one leads us to God, the Source of Life. I believe God did this on purpose to separate those who love Him from those who do not.
Something Judaism and Islam have in common are an emphasis on rules. Christianity de-emphasises rules. Maybe we can understand why people leave Christianity by understanding more about what Christianity represents and whether these people understood it or not.
Rules are just an approach to life. Rules don't always reflect people's attitudes. Every culture and every individual has his own way of expressing his attitudes, feelings and thoughts. This means that a person may not actually be doing the wrong thing even though he's not following the rules as he is told. People create rules only so that there is a common way of expressing one's attitudes. It eliminates confusion over right and wrong.
But then . . . what happens if there is a foreigner who doesn't understand the rules or what they represent? He breaks the rules, but doesn't have the wrong attitudes that the rules represent. Yet he is condemned for breaking them. People who don't conform or have a different approach to life are condemned all because they have a different way of expressing their attitudes -- whether it's with greetings, right way of starting a conversation, dress code or mating!!!!
This is what Paul warned about -- don't judge people by rules. Put yourself in their shoes and try to find out their true attitudes. Only then can you figure out whether their behaviour or way of thinking is wrong. Take the wood out of your eye.
If rules can't define right and wrong, then we don't really need them. All we need is the attitudes they represent. The reason why we often believe in rules is because we're gullible. God gave us a conscience. We simply don't use it.
Judaism and Islam both teach us to have one approach to life. This may actually create problems rather than solving them. Some may start thinking that this one approach is what makes them better than those who don't conform to this approach. If you don't conform you're not doing it right is what you might be told.
Really? Am I doing it wrong then? Paul says otherwise!!!!
This is what Paul is saying in Romans 14:1-12 (Don't Judge Your Brother). God didn't create us all to be the same. We are actually all unique and different. This means that there is no "one size fits all model" and no single approach suits everybody perfectly. Because God made us all different we all function differently and we each have a different approach that works for us.We are to be treated equally, even though God didn't make us equal. Some of us are rich, some poor. Some are more intelligent than others. Some have more skill than others. Some are strong, some weak. Some masters, others slave. But inequality doesn't mean some are "better" or more important than others. It just means that God created us with different parameters.
Although we function differently and each require a different approach we do have something in common. God created us to do good. Our common goal is to think, act and function as beings producing the fruit of love, patience, kindness, compassion, humility and contentment. This is the function of life -- to bear fruit!!!
Human beings are a bit like plants. It's just that we're spiritual plants rather than physical plants. Physical plants don't have a mind of their own and can't choose how they want to grow. As spiritual plants we do have a mind of our own. We choose how we want to grow. Every plant's functions are different. Not all plants are the same.
One approach to life? I don't buy it. It doesn't sound very natural to me.
People converting to Judaism/Islam from Christianity?
Who knows? Maybe it's because they were never properly told that this is what the Christian Gospel means. Maybe they didn't see the "natural side" of the Christian faith.
Not everyone sees the same picture.
truthseeker said:
I think it goes both ways. You may actually see a "natural side" to all three faiths -- Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Christians reject Judaism and Islam because they find it foreign, primitive, baseless, or "lacking," and Jews and Muslims reject Christianity because they find it foreign, primitive, baseless, or "lacking." It's pride that often keeps us seeing from this "natural side."
Whether natural or not, I still believe there is only One Truth. Many religions have a natural side, but only one leads us to God, the Source of Life. I believe God did this on purpose to separate those who love Him from those who do not.
lunamoth
Episcopalian
Saltmeister said:
I think you are onto something here, Saltmeister. I can only speak for myself and about some things others have shared with me, but I think that many Christians, in addition to not reading the Bible are not aware of all the different aspects of Christianity that exist. Judaism and Islam are often called orthopraxy (prescribed practice) where Christianity is often called orthodoxy (prescribed doctrine or belief), and many people resist being told what to believe especially when it contradicts science or their experience.
Even on CR I've read with interest the perspective of people who have looked to Judaism to enrich their Christian walk. And I have heard of Christians converting to Islam because it in some ways it is more 'rational,' explains more things in ways people can believe and in some ways 'has all the answers.' Now, this may be a very incorrect view of Islam, but I am just sharing what others have told me. Further, I've known Christians who turned to Buddhism becasue they felt that Christianity did not address a certain spiritual transcendence or meditative nature (too complex or busy??? I'm not sure).
However, I think that Christianity as a religion offers all of the things that people go looking for in other religions. One can develop a Christian practice that includes things like sacramentally keeping the Sabbath and other Biblical laws and one that also includes contemplation/mysticism. And, one does not need to turn off the mind and try to fit all science teaches us about the natural world into the Biblical creation stories (unless you want to); there are many mainstream denomnations (can you say RCC? Methodist? Episcopalian?) that already support that flexibility. And you don't need to invent this on your own--it already exists within Christianity if you go searching for it.
Looking this over I see that it neglects the most important things about Christianity, but our relationship with God through Christ is thoroughly addressed in many other places. If this particular foundation is shaken I think anything can happen...
sorry for the ramble,
lunamoth
I
InChristAlways
Guest
Human beings are a bit like plants. It's just that we're spiritual plants rather than physical plants. Physical plants don't have a mind of their own and can't choose how they want to grow. As spiritual plants we do have a mind of our own. We choose how we want to grow. Every plant's functions are different. Not all plants are the same.
One approach to life? I don't buy it. It doesn't sound very natural to me.
People converting to Judaism/Islam from Christianity?
Who knows? Maybe it's because they were never properly told that this is what the Christian Gospel means. Maybe they didn't see the "natural side" of the Christian faith.
Not everyone sees the same picture.
Thank you all for you reponses and I believe some of you brought up something that is very relevant concerning both the OT and NT Scripture, and that is the Spirit of God.nice testimony Faithful. i feel the same & will jump into the frying pan with you. if we get our heads chopped off...oh well. then we get to go see the one true head & get our one true head put back on who is Jesus.
the Holy Ghost/Spirit is what will witness with our spirit that it is true. there are scriptures for it but like you say, it is the Spirit that dwells in us & tells us it is true making us that aware & it makes it impossible to look back.
Many times in the Christian Bible, I come across the "Spirit being poured out" on people and though this is another topic, I believe this happens in all religions that dwell in Peace and Love, as the book of Joel mentions pouring out the Spirit on ALL flesh [regardless of religion or creed?].
The Book of Revelation I believe is also another very important book in the Christian bible, and I feel is very much "neglected" in Christianity for some reason [one poster in another thread mentioned this], because it actually shows that Christ "died", ascended to God and coming in Victory again, whether past, present, future or ongoing. I started a topic on it for this reason.
http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4433
Are there any more testimonies of former Christians leaving Christ, and again, thank you for your "Spirit" led responses. Peace
Steve
The words my spirit occur in 67 verses, including 40 exact phrase matches shown first:
Joel 2:28 " And it shall come to pass afterward That I will pour out My Spirit [#07307] on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your old men shall dream dreams, Your young men shall see visions.
This is again confirmed in the Christian NT:
Acts 2:18 And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit [#4151] in those days; And they shall prophesy.
lunamoth
Episcopalian
Brrr...is it chilly in here? Guess it's just me.
lunamoth
lunamoth
I
InChristAlways
Guest
LOL. Not if you have the "Spirit" of Peace, Love and Truth.lunamoth said:Brrr...is it chilly in here? Guess it's just me.
lunamoth
Dondi
Well-Known Member
Does the Spirit of God operate in other religions/belief systems?
Dondi
Well-Known Member
Oops, repeated post.
lunamoth
Episcopalian
Dondi said:
I say yes. But then, you already knew that...
peace,
lunamoth
Dondi
Well-Known Member
lunamoth said:I say yes. But then, you already knew that...
peace,
lunamoth
Yes, but what I was aiming for is: To what extent as compared to Christianity? Are other religions incomplete in their experiencing the Spirit of God? Or are they just experiencing a different facet of the Spirit of God?
lunamoth
Episcopalian
Dondi said:
There seem to be some glitches in the program--it occurs periodically that a post that starts a new page will not show up until the next post is made. Perhaps that is what happened.
lunamoth
Dondi
Well-Known Member
Yeah, I thought the first time I posted that it didn't take, for some reason. So I posted again, only to find two posts. Oh well.
No Christianity has the corner on the spirit of God, it has been tested and found that actually Southern Baptists receive the most spirit...Dondi said:
Although, Islam does recieve more than some Methodists. And while reformed Jews...
Can this truly be a serious question?
Is it just me, or as the Bahai calmed down the Christians have ramped up?
bruceg
Well-Known Member
Folks - this seems to be headed to a "my religion is better than your religion" argument - which is inappropriate here. So far it's stayed almost within the Code of Conduct (or at least not so far over that the mods have had to step in) - but it's headed in the wrong direction. To all of you - read your posts - are you attackng other religions? Other posters? Preaching at them? If so, don't post it. Discussion is good - preaching is bad.
In this area, ALL of the abrahamic religions are to be respected, please.
... Bruce
In this area, ALL of the abrahamic religions are to be respected, please.
... Bruce
Dondi
Well-Known Member
No, I thought I was asking an honest question in line with the current discussion. The question had to do with Christians seeking out other religions and I was trying to determine if there was any appeal to seeking the Spirit of God in other religions as a reason to leave.
One reason I asked that is because I don't think Christianity has a monopoly on the Spirit of God. I've read too many stories of other's from different faiths experiencing the Spirit of God in their lives. Maybe there was an appeal to Christians who were disillusioned with where they were at in their relationship with God and decided to seek elsewhere.
The furthest from my mind is to turn this thread into some kind of spiritual spitting match. If taken that way, I duly apologize.
One reason I asked that is because I don't think Christianity has a monopoly on the Spirit of God. I've read too many stories of other's from different faiths experiencing the Spirit of God in their lives. Maybe there was an appeal to Christians who were disillusioned with where they were at in their relationship with God and decided to seek elsewhere.
The furthest from my mind is to turn this thread into some kind of spiritual spitting match. If taken that way, I duly apologize.
Does the Spirit of God operate in other religions/belief systems? Quote:Dondi said:
Originally Posted by Dondi
Yes, but what I was aiming for is: To what extent as compared to Christianity? Are other religions incomplete in their experiencing the Spirit of God? Or are they just experiencing a different facet of the Spirit of God?
My apoligies...I always err in the way I say things as well, and it seems to me that God smiles on all of us (outside the Abrahamic religion thread as well) I totally misinterpreted your question.