Baptizement required?

people come up with all kinds of things for this. yes, no , maybe, when, how, this happens-that happens....
i have always heard it from catholics & some protestants also & that it is for the remission of sin. but through history there have been many different opinions within each denomination.

so do you go with what people say or go with what the bible says?
it is real simple. IMO-

if you dont want to be baptised then dont be baptised.:)
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Originally Posted by wil
Ok, so neither of these mention water....from Jesus. Peter did, but not Jesus. and the John quotes are exactly what I remembered...he will baptize you with the holy spirit...

So again, to me, water seems to be backing up...not going forward with our elder brothers teachings...
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To baptise is a physical and spiritual symbol of cleansing, as well as a commitment (by the person, or by the child's wards), to follow/teach in the ways of the Savior. It is not however, a prerequisite for getting into heaven. If that were true, we could all get dunked or splashed and that would guarantee our way through the pearly gates, regardless of what we did here on earth.
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I have another question.

Could the water baptism be a type of "OT fulfillment" since Jesus also was batized to fulfill all righteousness.

For example, in the OT, the Priests had to "wash" in the "Laver" before entering in the Tabernacle as an example, and since Jesus is our High Priest, perhaps that is what it symbolzed.

Another words, Christ waited about 30 yrs to be baptized and to minster the Gospel, and why I have difficulty in understanding the purpose of Him getting baptized. I myself was baptized in the Gulf of Mexico by a pastor friend of mine and could almost view it as being in the Jordan river during Jesus's days.

But to this day, I don't really know whether I did it as a commandment or to follow what Jesus had done to Him by JTB and therefore acknowlede Him as my Savior, King and High Priest [which I also do "figuratively" from the "rooftops"].
Steve

Matthew 3:15 But Jesus answering said to him, `Suffer now, for thus it is becoming to us to fulfil [#4137] all righteousness [#1343],' then he doth suffer him.
 
i would like to put aside wether water baptism is a requirement or wether it is not. just for a minute put aside all the reasons for doing what Jesus told us to do concerning water & put to the side the Acts of the Apostles, for just a minute.

put to the side, the thief on the cross who we know was saved, because that is another argument people use & the commandment for water is not even recorded until just before Jesus ascended.

put aside the baptism of the Holy Ghost as well, so the two baptisms are not confused.

put the requirement question to the side for moment.
put to the side who said do what & who said what.

this here in Hebrews tells me Paul was still teaching doctrine of baptism(s) & includes baptism(s)-plural, as principles of the doctrine of Christ. (not more than one doctrine, but more than one baptism)

6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
6:3 And this will we do, if God permit.
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forget the reasons WHY & HOW & WHEN & WHY NOT. and please...
i challenge anyone to render a passage that clearly tells us NOT to be water baptised (as in a commandment NOT to do so).:)
 
wil said:
I'm trying to understand.. John said what? that he baptized with water and Jesus would do so with spirit... I don't find where Jesus told Peter to do so...

and I think by conjecture of previoius scripture I conclude w/o water much as you conclude w/water...as water isn't referenced...

of course the words of the day had so much meaning, more than just the 'name' and my understanding is also that often when we read in the name of Jesus, it is refering to the traits of Jesus, ie in his way, like him, in his nature...
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then what you are saying is the Apostles could baptise with the Holy Ghost if you are saying Jesus was not refering to water in Matt 28:19.
 
Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
John 14:6

His life IS the way - "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me" (Matthew 16:24).

And His way is the way of his Father - "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him" John 1:18

So when Jesus accepted baptism at John's hand, it was for our sake, not his, and the Trinitarian Presence (the voice from heaven and the descent of the dove) signifies that by baptism man enters into the life of God.

John said "I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost" (Mark 1:8) - but when John baptised Christ the Holy Spirit manifested his Presence - as He does in the case of all baptism, because by that action Jesus elevated baptism from a symbol to a sacrament.

Thus whilst the act of baptism can be read as symbol on a number of levels - death and rebirth, spiritual purification - indeed Jesus's baptism in the Jordan is a symbol and summation of the Old Testament, for the Jordan separates the Wilderness from The Promised Land - what is unique (in the OT as well as the NT) is that these events are not symbols of some ethereal and numinous 'otherness', but actually happened in 'real time' and in a 'real place' - they are the myths of the world made real.

So we continue to perform baptism according to its foundation. The substance of the form has been simplified (and amplified) but the essence remains the same. Thus total immersion is not necessary (quality, not quantity) - 1 drop of water will do it - but if we say the physical act is not necessary, only the intention, then we deny the presence of both God and ourselves.

Thomas
 
Thank you all...

Peter 3:21 refers to the water signifying the flood...

Thomas refers to the Jordan signifying the seperation wilderness from the promise land..

yes I agree we all need to cross the Jordan (get to the other side), and we get to G-d by living the way, the nature of Jesus

And now we want to prove that water is required because nowhere it says it isn't required...or forbidden.

Yes I think there exists a spiritual baptism, a crossing of the Jordan, an accepting that you are in the wilderness and a willingness to follow our elder borther and wayshower to get out...

But does someone have to sprinkle some water made holy by some ceremony, or does one need to be dunked in a tank or a river...is it required that someone holier than thou, or with some such credentials perform such feat?

To me that is how I read the question...

And I think, neither water, nor someone sanctioned by someone else, need perform it...me thinks it is between you and the master...

I for one am perfectly happy that people have their religious traditions and ceremonies. That some dunk and some sprinkle, that one says this chant and another this method. It is all wonderful. But does that mean it has to be imposed on others? The vagaries in the text opened the door for and allowed there to exist so many denominations...
 
wil said:
And I think, neither water, nor someone sanctioned by someone else, need perform it...me thinks it is between you and the master...
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Wil, I think you have put it quite clearly here. And Intuitively, we should all know that this is true!

wil said:
I for one am perfectly happy that people have their religious traditions and ceremonies. That some dunk and some sprinkle, that one says this chant and another this method. It is all wonderful. But does that mean it has to be imposed on others?
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Indeed, the spirit of Ecumenism and Inclusiveness is greater ... than that of ex-clusiveness. S/he who cannot understand a God whose love (and the living expression of whose love) embraces all creatures, and all of creation ... does not understand God at all.

As for Baptism symbolizing the purification necessary before we encounter God face to face ... Christ put it thus, in the Sermon on the Mount:
"Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God." (Matthew 5:8)
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How pure do we have to be? Well ... if you're certain you're there, cast the first stone. Word ...

Andrew
 
Well, so far I have not seen one person say that baptism is a requirement for salvation (whatever that means...). I have seen people explain why baptism is a sacrament of the Catholic and some other churches, and I have seen people say why they feel the Bible supports baptism by water. I've learned some interesting things about how the Church views baptism why various people find it meaningful. All good things.

peace,
lunamoth
 
wil said:
Thank you all...


To me that is how I read the question...

And I think, neither water, nor someone sanctioned by someone else, need perform it...me thinks it is between you and the master...

I for one am perfectly happy that people have their religious traditions and ceremonies. That some dunk and some sprinkle, that one says this chant and another this method. It is all wonderful. But does that mean it has to be imposed on others? The vagaries in the text opened the door for and allowed there to exist so many denominations...
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so kind of like that would mean that Jesus & the Apostles were imposing on others, every time they taught something people were being imposed on.

well you got that right, because they were pushed away by the masses & it even got them crucified & murdered, but not before they got the Gospel & foundation of Jesus out, & they did teach water baptsim as well as spirit baptism and many many other things. :)
 
Thomas said:
So when Jesus accepted baptism at John's hand, it was for our sake, not his, and the Trinitarian Presence (the voice from heaven and the descent of the dove) signifies that by baptism man enters into the life of God.

John said "I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost" (Mark 1:8) - but when John baptised Christ the Holy Spirit manifested his Presence - as He does in the case of all baptism, because by that action Jesus elevated baptism from a symbol to a sacrament.


Thomas
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not sure about this part Thomas. i dont think everyone is just automatically entered just because of water or the Holy Ghost manifests everytime. Simon the sorcerer 'believed & was baptised' but he was also denied the gift (baptism) of the Holy Ghost and told to do what?.

Repent.:)
 
lunamoth said:
Well, so far I have not seen one person say that baptism is a requirement for salvation (whatever that means...). I have seen people explain why baptism is a sacrament of the Catholic and some other churches, and I have seen people say why they feel the Bible supports baptism by water. I've learned some interesting things about how the Church views baptism why various people find it meaningful. All good things.

peace,
lunamoth
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yah. i dont think water -by itself- saves anyone...there is more to it than that. i have always seen a package deal in the good book.

i suppose there could be many intentions for why people get baptised or baptise others, but i think repentance is probably the greater of the two & naturally faith is what gets the ball rolling.:)
 
Bandit said:
yah. i dont think water -by itself- saves anyone...there is more to it than that. i have always seen a package deal in the good book.

i suppose there could be many intentions for why people get baptised or baptise others, but i think repentance is probably the greater of the two & naturally faith is what gets the ball rolling.:)
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Hey Bandit, well I believe baptism is a sacrament, is meaningful and more than that is a *real* thing--along the lines as Thomas has explained so very well. One may never hear of Christ or baptism yet that does not mean they are outside the knowledge and love of Christ. One may know about baptism and decide that is not a meaningful or necessary thing for them (shrug), and though I disagree I do not think that puts anyone outside the love of Christ either. We can talk about infant vs. adult (conscientious) baptism, but that's a whole other discussion for another time.

I just see no need to belittle baptism, or insist that baptism is meaningless, or that Christians, or the Church, or name your favorite representative of religious thought and dogma, does not understand baptism. That is when I start to see intolerance, not too different from those who say you must be baptized to be saved.

my 2 c,
lunamoth
 
lunamoth said:
Hey Bandit, well I believe baptism is a sacrament, is meaningful and more than that is a *real* thing--along the lines as Thomas has explained so very well. One may never hear of Christ or baptism yet that does not mean they are outside the knowledge and love of Christ. One may know about baptism and decide that is not a meaningful or necessary thing for them (shrug), and though I disagree I do not think that puts anyone outside the love of Christ either. We can talk about infant vs. adult (conscientious) baptism, but that's a whole other discussion for another time.

I just see no need to belittle baptism, or insist that baptism is meaningless, or that Christians, or the Church, or name your favorite representative of religious thought and dogma, does not understand baptism. That is when I start to see intolerance, not too different from those who say you must be baptized to be saved.

my 2 c,
lunamoth
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did you see me belittle water baptsim? i am probably the only one here who believes it is something we should do without question.

oh yes. i know water baptism is a *real* thing. i would never belittle water. i believe it is very meaningful & has a purpose behind it. i dont think the Apostles went around baptising for nothing or made it up. they did it because Jesus told them to do it & because they loved him so they followed his commandments.

if we dont love Him, then we wont do His commandments.

i cant say i see in the scripture says it is a sacrament though & i dont see in the scripture where everyone automatically is baptised with the Holy Ghost just because of water & that is not how it happened for me.

what was Peters answer to "What must we do?" ?

as i said from the start, baptism of the Holy Ghost can come before, during or after water & the scripture shows that...there is no absolute biblical dogma for that.
so we will have to agree to disagree that both baptisms *always* happen at the same time.
 
back to what I said in my previous post.. I believe that part of what Jesus did during His ministry was to show US what to do and how to act.. He was baptized in water.. He prayed to the Father.. He showed compassion and mercy.. He gave of Himself.. He is in fact.. the ideal role model Christian.
 
Bandit said:
did you see me belittle water baptsim?.
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oh my goodness no, Bandit. I was just ranting. I see where you are coming from and agree completely about repentance and I like your take on the baptism by the Spirit.

sorry for the misunderstanding. :eek:

lunamoth
 
Faithfulservant said:
back to what I said in my previous post.. I believe that part of what Jesus did during His ministry was to show US what to do and how to act.. He was baptized in water.. He prayed to the Father.. He showed compassion and mercy.. He gave of Himself.. He is in fact.. the ideal role model Christian.
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And those are excellent points, Faithfulservant.

peace,
lunamoth
 
wil said:
Thank you all...

Peter 3:21 refers to the water signifying the flood...

Thomas refers to the Jordan signifying the seperation wilderness from the promise land..

yes I agree we all need to cross the Jordan (get to the other side), and we get to G-d by living the way, the nature of Jesus

And now we want to prove that water is required because nowhere it says it isn't required...or forbidden.

Yes I think there exists a spiritual baptism, a crossing of the Jordan, an accepting that you are in the wilderness and a willingness to follow our elder borther and wayshower to get out...

But does someone have to sprinkle some water made holy by some ceremony, or does one need to be dunked in a tank or a river...is it required that someone holier than thou, or with some such credentials perform such feat?

To me that is how I read the question...

And I think, neither water, nor someone sanctioned by someone else, need perform it...me thinks it is between you and the master...

I for one am perfectly happy that people have their religious traditions and ceremonies. That some dunk and some sprinkle, that one says this chant and another this method. It is all wonderful. But does that mean it has to be imposed on others? The vagaries in the text opened the door for and allowed there to exist so many denominations...
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1 Peter 3:21

...who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the are was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism which now save you also - not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ...


Gotta read all of it, not just part.. Otherwise the whole meaning is changed, from what the author was trying to convey. The Flood was an anology to place in the reader's mind the importance of Baptism. The flood was not the main point, baptism was.

v/r

Q


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Quahom1 said:
1 Peter 3:21

...who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the are was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism which now save you also - not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ...


Gotta read all of it, not just part.. Otherwise the whole meaning is changed, from what the author was trying to convey. The Flood was an anology to place in the reader's mind the importance of Baptism. The flood was not the main point, baptism was.

v/r

Q




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​
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thanks for bringing out the whole thing there in 1 Peter, water baptism was the main point there, not the flood. i was going to also but glad you followed up on that.
Amen:)


lunamoth said:
oh my goodness no, Bandit. I was just ranting. I see where you are coming from and agree completely about repentance and I like your take on the baptism by the Spirit.

sorry for the misunderstanding. :eek:

lunamoth
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i thought you were mad at me. we are cool.:)
 
In the life of Christ he was doing things that was fulfilling prophecy to prove who he was. It's an important tradition to fulfil for a person as part of there Christian faith. Also the symbolism is very important, we are CLEANING away the sins ready to start a fresh life in the foot steps of Christ.

 
Just a couple of points:

Baptism - and initiatic rites of entry/engagement - may take many forms in many diverse traditions - but the principle is the same everywhere - what is actually effected, of course, differs according to one's 'confessional horizon'.

Wil said:
And I think, neither water, nor someone sanctioned by someone else, need perform it...me thinks it is between you and the master...
Thy own lips have said it! I highlighted 'sanctioned' because it derives from the verb 'to sanctify' - something only God can do - and this is the very point - it is the 'master' who institutes - sanctions - sanctifies - baptism in the first place, so if you then refuse baptism, you refuse the master.

Make no mistake, its presence in every authentic spiritual tradition signifies it is a necessary rite - nothing the gods do is every arbitary - in that aspect it is non-negotiable, and in that aspect it is a requirement for salvation.

Bandit said:
I dont think everyone is just automatically entered just because of water or the Holy Ghost manifests everytime.
Agreed. In the Catholic Church baptism is entry into the 'Mystical Body' - this is what we understand by sanctification, or consecration, but one still has to engage within it - baptism in this regard is closely connected to the Eucharist.

The Christian tradition is principally one of conversion, not initiation (initiations can in fact guarantee, but only within the cosmological order), which is why it is a religion of being, not of knowledge, and thus the Spirit can operate 'outside' the cover of the tradition - but always to draw the person in (see Acts 10), never to set them up as a kind of 'independent operator' which is highly attractive to the ego, but denies the idea of 'union' at the personal level.

Everybody wants to be one with God,
only a few care to be one with their neighbour.

The Christian Church, the Buddhist Sangha, is the physical representation of that Divine and Cosmic unity. Christ, Scripture and Church are one. Buddha, Dharma and Sangha are one.

One either accepts all of it, or none of it.

Thomas
 
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