What is Theosophy?

[taijasi]

I did find one more quote, from Esoteric Healing, which is useful in helping to see the distinction between the mystic and the occultist (or esotericist):[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]
[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]"The mystic is ever conscious of duality. He is the seeker in search of light, of the soul, of the beloved, of that higher something which he senses as existing and as that which can be found. He strives after recognition of and by the divine; he is the follower of the vision, a disciple of the Christ, and this conditions his thinking and his aspiration. He is a devotee and one who loves the apparently unattainable - the Other than himself.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]Only when he becomes the occultist does the mystic learn that all the time the magnet which attracted him, and the dualism which colored his life and thoughts and which gave motive to all he sought to do, was his true self, the one Reality. He recognizes then that assimilation into and identification with that one reality enables duality to be transmuted into unity and the sense of search to be transformed into the effort to become what he essentially is - a Son of God, one with all Sons of God. Having accomplished that, he finds himself one with the One in Whom we live and move and have our being." (pp 117-118)
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The Beauty of this, imho, is that the author does not invalidate the path of the mystic, since it is in itself of value, and an important stage on the spiritual path. Likewise, all those who practice an exoteric religion, whether sticking strictly to a particular tradition, or choosing to take a more blended, interfaith approach ... can be seen as treading the path that is right for them. It would be arrogant indeed, to insist that everyone suddenly abandon what works for him or herself at the moment, and artificially adopt another tradition, or way of knowing. Whom would this profit?

And that is why, among Theosophists and esotericists, there are those of all faiths and spiritual traditions, since generally Theosophy is accepted by such people as enriching the path that one walks, as well as vice versa. If there are those who have difficulty with this, or who prefer to choose a spiritual path and "stick with it," then I recommend that they do just that. Why on earth would one try to become a Sikh, if one has no interest in the Sikh religion, and if one is more comfortable as a Muslim? Dear lord, it would make no sense!

anyway, just ramblings ... and my point was, that the goal of the true Theosophist, or Esotericist, is as described above. Usually such people come from a strong interest in, or history of experiences with, mysticism. And from this natural recapitulatory set of experiences, s/he proceeds with the science of occultism. Soon, s/he learns that the one goal of the true occultist is selfless service to others, and this is where the real work of discipleship begins ...

andrew

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Hi everybody!

Is anyone still interested in discussing Theosophy? I have been a Theosophical member for many years, and I would like to hear anyone's take on Theosophy.

 

[lunamoth]

Hi everybody!

Is anyone still interested in discussing Theosophy? I have been a Theosophical member for many years, and I would like to hear anyone's take on Theosophy.

Hi Nick, Welcome to CR.

I think Andrew still posts here and perhaps others also are interested in Theosophy. If you have a particular topic you are interested in why not start a new thread?

Also, stop by the introductions board below and introduce yourself.

cheers,
lunamoth

 

[taijasi]

Hi everybody!

Is anyone still interested in discussing Theosophy? I have been a Theosophical member for many years, and I would like to hear anyone's take on Theosophy.

Hi, Nick,

I posted a reply on the Intros forum, and I wanted to respond here as well. Your contributions would be most welcome!

I've posted at CR as Taijasi, and for awhile now as Zagreus. Sometimes I've mentioned a Theosophical background, but I'm not sure everyone at CR is familiar with what that means. Anything you could share or offer from your own perspective and experience(s) would be wonderful!

One topic that was under discussion earlier in this thread was the idea of spiritual Revelation, and how Theosophy (or Theosophists) regard(s) this. Perhaps that would be an appropriate subject to comment on, since there is also a hot thread on the Liberal Christianity forum right now on the (Christian) Book of Revelation.

Just an idea ...

Love and Light,

andrew

 

[InLove]

Sometimes I've mentioned a Theosophical background

Sometimes? (I'm just cajoling, Zag. ) (I'll try to stop. )

InPeace,
InLove

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Andrew,

You have suggested I describe what a Theosophical background is. That is such a big topic, it is hard to say where to begin.

Theosophy has been described in many ways, but perhaps the shortest description is that it is a society that studies different religions. Theosophy believes that all religions come from the same source, and that all religions sprang from a common set of beliefs and teachings. Theosophy tries to show the commonality of all religions.

Spiritual Revelation? I suppose you mean where we get our information about "life in the hereafter"? Theosophy definitely has teachings in this area, beginning with karma and reincarnation. This puts it at odds with the conventional Christian teachings of today. As a matter of fact, Theosophy has a lot to say about the ideas in The Book of Revelations, but the Theososphical teachings are quite a radical departure from conventional Christian teachings.

You said,

"...there is also a hot thread on the Liberal Christianity forum right now on the (Christian) Book of Revelation."

--> I have two reactions to that. First, I am not a Christian, and my interpretations of The Book of Revelations is quite different than the conventional Christian interpretation. I probably will not post in that thread, because it is in the Christian Section, and it would be improper for me to go there and criticise their religion. (Any questions placed in this thread, however, will be answered.)

I could go there and debate with Christians, but I do not debate with Christians. Debates are a win/loss situation, and often involve people trying to manipulate others into thinking the same way.

My second reaction is that The Book of Revelations hints at ideas that are very much a part of my (Theosophical) belief system, beliefs that do not fit the contemporary Christian way of looking at things.

But that is why we have this Forum, isn't it? To look at new ideas, and to give people a chance to look at new ideas? That is a good idea.

 

[pohaikawahine]

Andrew,

You have suggested I describe what a Theosophical background is. That is such a big topic, it is hard to say where to begin.

Theosophy has been described in many ways, but perhaps the shortest description is that it is a society that studies different religions. Theosophy believes that all religions come from the same source, and that all religions sprang from a common set of beliefs and teachings. Theosophy tries to show the commonality of all religions. ] end quote

I do believe that all religions as well as many ways of life (some are not referred to as 'religions') have a connection in an ancient path of knowledge and wisdom .... we are all connected in the potential to become whole again once we remember who we are and begin to see with our inner eyes and our soul .... the way of the mystic is a strong part of that connection but even today many who say they walk the mystic path do not see well .... in the ancient ways of hawaii-nei we might simply call it the spiralling energy, the dragon energy, even our stories and legends of a goddess called Pele are simply stories that have buried in them this ancient knowledge of energy .... we must learn to go within ourselves through meditation, chant, or deep prayer (whatever will take our minds away from the mundane emotions of the earthly world and move us to a higher frequency of thought) and move the spiralling energy upward into the center of the brain (the altar, the cave of the bear, the location of the holy grail, whatever you want to call it) and when we can bridge the three hemispheres to become One, we begin the process of the regathering of the twelve pairs of cranial nerves that operate the system of seven .... Theosophy (from what I have read and studied) tries to pull all the esoteric and not so esoteric systems together to do the same thing .... it is sometimes too confusing for me (the words and ideas seem to cover the simplicity of the system with far too many philosophies) .... every thing is buried deep in the knowledge left by the ancient people .... but not so deep that we cannot relocate it and apply it to our lives .... it is buried in the "ancient ocean" which exists within each of us .... "ka au moana" .... he hawai'i au, pohaikawahine

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Pohaika Wahine,

Aloha ahiahi kaua.

You said,

"...many ways of life (some are not referred to as 'religions')...."

--> I prefer to use the term "belief system". Therefore, I have a belief system, not a religion.

"I do believe that all religions as well as many ways of life (some are not referred to as 'religions') have a connection in an ancient path of knowledge and wisdom...."

--> I agree.

".... we are all connected in the potential to become whole again once we remember who we are and begin to see with our inner eyes and our soul...."

--> I agree. We are are on a journey along a Path. To some, this journey is really a return to somewhere. Unfortunately, it is difficult to see where we were, and where we will be. That is why some people say our job is to concentrate on our present position on the Path, for that is the only thing we can be sure of.

" .... the way of the mystic is a strong part of that connection but even today many who say they walk the mystic path do not see well...."

To improperly walk the way of a mystic path can also bring one to danger as well as not seeing well. Great care is needed here.

"...even our stories and legends of a goddess called Pele are simply stories that have buried in them this ancient knowledge of energy...."

--> I am curious. How do you feel when you hear the story of the woman who climbed up to Pele's volcano and defied her (and threw kapu fruit into the volcano, if I remember correctly), and brought Hawai'i into "the modern age"?

" .... we must learn to go within ourselves through meditation, chant, or deep prayer (whatever will take our minds away from the mundane emotions of the earthly world and move us to a higher frequency of thought)...."

--> I agree. We allow our mundane thoughts to run wild. Meditation, chant, or deep prayer can bring back our self-control.

"...and move the spiralling energy upward into the center of the brain (the altar, the cave of the bear, the location of the holy grail, whatever you want to call it)...."

--> I agree learning to control such energy is a good idea, but I have also heard it can be dangerous. I hope all who do so, do so with an experienced teacher.

"...when we can bridge the three hemispheres to become One, we begin the process of the regathering of the twelve pairs of cranial nerves that operate the system of seven .... Theosophy (from what I have read and studied) tries to pull all the esoteric and not so esoteric systems together to do the same thing...."

--> Theosophy teaches the value of meditation, but does not go into the specifics of how to meditate. (That is left to individual teachers.) In my opinion, Theosophy does not teach the unifying of different parts of the brain, but the unifying of the physical body, the astral body, the mind, and other aspects. But you are right, Theosophy teaches a unification of the whole person.

".... every thing is buried deep in the knowledge left by the ancient people...."

--> As a matter of fact, the main purpose of Theosophy is to reteach ancient teachings that have been lost.

".... it is buried in the "ancient ocean" which exists within each of us...."

--> I agree. The trick is to learn how to access this "ancient ocean". Each belief system has its own method, and Theosophy respects the different methods of each belief system.

A hui ho,

Nick

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Thomas,

Please forgive me for joining this discussion so late, but there are a few statements I would like to comment upon.

"I question its validity from a Catholic standpoint...."

--> The relationship between Blavatskian Theosophy and the church has been contentious over the years. It is hoped that these discussions will open up more communication between Catholics and Theosophists. (I must admit, rare is the day, indeed, that I see a meaningful discussion between members of the two groups. If you and I are of the two, I hope this can be time well spent.)

"Theosophy then, as a belief, relies on the idea that man can know God through the operation of the intellect alone."

--> Using the definition of Theosophy as described by Blavatsky, I would disagree. (Blavatskian) Theosophy does not accept the idea of a monotheistic God. Theosophists believe in something called the Absolute, but it is not the same as the Creator God -- not even close.

"The JudeoChristian tradition is neither monistic nor pantheistic, and this was why Christianity refused (as had the Jews before them) any accommodation with the pagan world."

--> Chrisitianity is a pantheistic religion (per the Bible itself), yet Christianity tells everyone it is monotheistic. I feel Chrisitianity struggles with mono- and pan-theism, just as Judiasm does.

"...Freemasons hold they are in receipt of a Secret Doctrine which dates back to the time of Solomon, and the symbolism of the Temple."

--> This is a very important concept to Theosophists, and the commonality between the two is appreciated.

"...The Theosophical Society claims itself to be the very hub of the wheel of religion, and without the correct interpretation of the world's great religious scriptures, as mediated by the TS, all religions are bankrupt, lost and meaningless."

--> I would disagree with this statement. The Theosophical Society is but an imperfect instrument for the dissemination of the Ancient Wisdom, as Blavatsky was quick to point out. The Ancient Wisdom is periodically re-released, and Theosophy is but one release in a long series of releases. And I must disagree with the idea that all religions are bankrupt, lost and meaningless without TS mediation. (I would say the entire Theosophical Society was created for the purpose of proving the opposite to be true.)

"The Catholic Church acknowledges the Sacred Texts of the world's religions as issuing from a sacred source, and furthermore regards all other religions as valid and authentic means of attaining salvation - but then Theosphy would say that we are wrong on that point, too."

--> I must say, I am surprised by this statement. Really? Can salvation be achieved by not going through Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit? I would like to see a quote on that.

 

[Thomas]

Hi Nick – welcome to CR

Chrisitianity is a pantheistic religion (per the Bible itself) that tells everyone it is monotheistic. I feel Chrisitianity struggles with mono- pan-theism just like Judiasm.

Well, I shall not speak for Judaism, but I think the doctrine of creatio ex nihilo precludes any mode of pantheism. For clarity I would suggest a careful reading of the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

Para 285:
Since the beginning the Christian faith has been challenged by responses to the question of origins that differ from its own ... Some philosophers have said that everything is God, that the world is God, or that the development of the world is the development of God (Pantheism)...

The text goes on to refute Dualism, Manichaeism, Gnosticism, Deism and Materialism.

Para 295:
We believe that God created the world according to his wisdom. It is not the product of any necessity whatever, nor of blind fate or chance. We believe that it proceeds from God's free will; he wanted to make his creatures share in his being, wisdom and goodness: "For you created all things, and by your will they existed and were created." Therefore the Psalmist exclaims: "O LORD, how manifold are your works! In wisdom you have made them all"; and "The LORD is good to all, and his compassion is over all that he has made."

I would disagree with this statement (the bankruptcy of world religions). The Theosophical Society is but an imperfect instrument for the dissemination of the Ancient Wisdom, as Blavatsky was quick to point out. The Ancient Wisdom is periodically re-released, and Theosophy is but one release in a long series of releases. And I must disagree with the idea that all religions are bankrupt, lost and meaningless without TS mediation.

I am glad to hear it. I based my comment on what had been said to me, and sadly a recent quotation (below), has not altered my opinion in that regard...

Quoting from the famous Maha Chohan's Letter of 1881:

"... That the world is in such a bad condition, morally, is a conclusive evidence that none of its religions and philosophies, those of the civilized races less than any other, has ever possessed the truth ... They are as far from the solution as they were; but to these problems there must be somewhere a consistent solution, and if our doctrines will show their competence to offer it, then the world will be the first to confess that there must be the true philosophy, the true religion, the true light, which gives truth and nothing but the truth."

... in all honesty I don't think one is obliged to 'read between the lines' to see the clear implication of this text.

I said:
"The Catholic Church acknowledges the Sacred Texts of the world's religions as issuing from a sacred source, and furthermore regards all other religions as valid and authentic means of attaining salvation... "

You comment:
I must say, I am surprised by this statement. Really? Can salvation be achieved by not going through Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit? I would like to see a quote on that.
Which is not quite what I said. To clarify, from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
Para 842:
The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race: All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city...

Para 843:
The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."

Para 2566:
Man is in search of God. In the act of creation, God calls every being from nothingness into existence. "Crowned with glory and honor," man is, after the angels, capable of acknowledging "how majestic is the name of the Lord in all the earth." Even after losing through his sin his likeness to God, man remains an image of his Creator, and retains the desire for the one who calls him into existence. All religions bear witness to men's essential search for God.

Pax, and again, welcome,

Thomas

 

[taijasi]

I based my comment on what had been said to me, and sadly a recent quotation, has not altered my opinion in that regard...

What I will say, must say, for my part, is that I feel we are all learning even the most basic steps of this dance, as well as the motive, means and method to improvise, and contribute new moves from within our own, co-creative reservoir and potential.

I have in the past directly challenged the idea that the Catholic Church, or even Christianity at large, has a monopoloy on the legitimate path and means (in terms of individual spirituality or liturgical styles & practice) back to Godhead (or `Absolute,' the One Ground of Being). I stand by that belief now, as always.

Where I feel I may have been in error is asking that you, Thomas, or indeed anyone, should be expected to derive the same proverbial kick-in-the-rear ... from say, quoting the much-discussed `Maha Chohan's Letter,' as I have. This is like saying that John 3:16 must mean exactly the same thing to everyone who reads it, and that there is only one possible inspiration, or motivation, that can come by so doing.

What I think the Great Dharma-Lord (`Maha Chohan') was saying in His letter, as I intrepet it, is that Truth speaks for itself. It has no interpreter. It has no "official earthly agent, or mediator," and therefore anyone, or anything, which sets itself up as such, has immediately proved its non-validity and error. This has everything to do with authority, yet it is 100% as applicable to Theosophy and Theosophists, as to Catholics, Christians, or anyone else.

To go deeper, the Maha Chohan's letter says to me that once we have fully, properly and truly understood the Truth (more than intellectually - this means to have accepted it, embraced it, and sworn oneself to upholding its behests) ... we cannot fail to act in accordance. And this action, if I may speak in terms of Christianity, would or will require that we do our utmost to embody Christ's most noble and Divine example: not just in word, but also in deed. It requires that we act, in Brotherhood, for the greater well-being of whatever group of people we are considering, that greatest group being the human family itself ... even taking the well-being of the entire planet into consideration.

The mistake would be to assume that the Maha Chohan was pointing his finger to a specific, limiting and restriced/restricting/restrictive set of doctrines or dogmas ... which in the present discussion we might call `Theosophical' vs. `Catholic,' as "Truth." But this goes against everything that I have come to understand and believe about God, man, religion and Truth!!!

This is like confusing the pointing finger ... with the Sky, the Stars, the Sun and Moon, or even with the Self-Manifest Beauty of Cosmos itself. I can put food in my little kitty-kat's bowl, and tell him ever so gently, "Tiger, here's the eats!" ... yet I have to laugh; if I point, then the cat follows my finger, no matter where I move it, and he never yet has looked in the direction that I was pointing. I have to leave it up to him to realize I've just fed him! I know this is really an observation about animal vs. human consciousness, but for me, at least in this application, it is also the same as human vs. Divine.

And so we have such simple confusion as one man, holding up his Koran, tapping it, and saying, Herein are God's Holy and Divine injunctions, the Voice of Wisdom and of Truth. The Christian, holding up his Bible, does likewise. And the Hindu, perhaps with the Bhagavad Gita or Mahabharata, is equally capable. Zoroastrian, Zend Avesta. Buddhist, Sutras. And so on, ad infinitum.

How many Gods, how many Truths?

Yep.

As for your clarification, Nick, that as a Theosophist, the focus is the Absolute vs. a monotheistic God, I wanted to say, thank you!!! I think this is very helpful, and this helps me to see that in my error, my desire to see religions (and people) agree, I would readily exhange words like `God' and `Absolute,' while inadvertently overlooking (or ignoring) the differences in these two concepts, as they are experienced - in the minds, heart, soul ... of the believer!

Therefore, again, my apologies, Thomas ... et al, and thank you, Nick, for bringing many things - and our dialogue - to greater light, and Love.

Namaskar,

Andrew

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Thomas,


You said,


"...the doctrine of creatio ex nihilo precludes any mode of pantheism...."


--> Perhaps the doctrine of creatio ex nihilo precludes any mode of pantheism, but the Bible does not. Why does the first page of the Bible indicate a pantheistic creation of humanity?


"Then God said: Let us make man in our image, after our likeness..." (Genesis 1.26) (emphasis added)
Attempst were made to wipe out all references to Christian Pantheism, but a few, like this one, got by the censors.

The concept of an Almighty God is rejected by modern Buddhism. Your quotes regarding the bringing of God to Buddhists (against their will?) seems to go against the idea of "The Catholic Church acknowledges the Sacred Texts of the world's religions as issuing from a sacred source, and furthermore regards all other religions as valid and authentic means of attaining salvation... " Does Catholicism regard the Buddhist rejection of an Almighty God as part of an authentic means of attaining salvation? I am afraid I see Christians striving to disprove the very Buddhist Cannons you are referring to.
You quoted the Maha Chohan (which can be found at...)
The Mahatma Letters to A. P. Sinnett - View of the Chohan
The Maha Chohan is an august being, with a status equal to that of the Buddha himself. What the Chohan is saying is that no one religion has all of the answers -- a very Theosophical idea. Catholicism does not have all of the answers, and neither does Theosophy -- this theme is repeated often in Theosophical literature.
Let's take a closer look at what the Chohan said. "...none of its religions and philosophies, those of the civilised races less than any other, have ever possessed the truth." By this he is referring to a whole release of the entire truth. This whole release will eventually occur, but many years from now, only when humanity is ready for it.
The Chohan was lamenting the role of religion in the world I am afraid I must agree – look how many people force their religion on others. We have not made a lot of progress since those words were penned in 1881. Theosophy is dedicated to speeding up the progress of humanity – and speeding up the reforming of outdated religious ideas.
That is a great quote. I always take note of what the Chohan says. Thank you for sharing it.
I suppose the purpose of these discussions is to see what we have in common, not where we differ. I feel we have moved a little closer to that goal.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Andrew,

Since we are getting into a God vs. Absolute discussion, I thought it would be good to give a Theosohical definition of the Absolute.

The Absolute is the one constant, unchanging from universe to universe. It is the one constant, unchanging from universe to universe. It is the one life, the one Reality, with all other aspects of the universe merely being an illusion.

[The Absolute is] “ ... the ONE LIFE, eternal, invisible, yet Omnipresent, without beginning or end, yet periodical in its regular manifestations, between which periods reigns the dark mystery of non-Being; unconscious, yet absolute Consciousness; unrealisable, yet the one self-existing reality; truly, ‘a chaos to the sense, a Kosmos to the reason.’ Its one absolute attribute, which is ITSELF, eternal, ceaseless Motion, is called in esoteric parlance the ‘Great Breath,’ which is the perpetual motion of the universe, in the sense of limitless, ever-present SPACE.”

(Secret Doctrine Vol I page 2)
The Secret Doctrine by H. P. Blavatsky, vol 1, Proem

 

[pohaikawahine]

-->Quote" I am curious. How do you feel when you hear the story of the woman who climbed up to Pele's volcano and defied her (and threw kapu fruit into the volcano, if I remember correctly), and brought Hawai'i into "the modern age"? End Quote

By this time many were confused about the meaning of our own legends and knowledge .... what I feel is that the true knowledge buried in the legends went underground after the arrival of the missionaries .... like so many others in the world we even forgot how to see deep within the messages and clues .... knowledge of this energy force was used for personal power and gain and although everyone had access to it at any time, they fell into (what I refer to ) a deep sleep .... it still lies buried about 4 levels deep in meaning .... this is what is referred to as the "huna" or the "sacred meaning" (it is not secret, it is sacred) .... it is not a religion,it is a way of life .... the woman who climbed up to Pele's volcano was a converted Christian and supported in these efforts to show the local people "the true way" .... since there was and is no goddess Pele (only her stories filled with hidden meanings) there was nothing to fear about a volcano except its natural tendency to flow .... this was only a show .... the legends and knowledge of the energy force named Pele runs within my own family line and names are carried that reflect this .... for example there is a story of Pele when she goes into a deep sleep and goes to the island of Kauai looking for her lover .... the seven major islands are lined up like the seven energy centers within the human body and the island of Kauai would correspond with the third eye .... they are stories within stories .... just like the Old Testament, it cannot be understood literally ....

Like the Theosophists (as I think I understand) I also look for links in the ancient traditions through sounds,directions and symbols .... the more years that pass,the easier it is to see through the veils and I marvel at the way this ancient knowledge was preserved and packaged .... I no longer try to convince others of what I see or interpret .... but I now have hope for a better future for our children because the change will happen and we are returning to the ancient knowledge .... we have started walking the path to the fifth world and have crossed over into a higher vibration of being .... as the Hopi say "this is the time in which we will meet ourselves" .... he hawai'i au, pohaikawahine (in Hawaiian this names means a circle of women .... it is also a meaning within a meaning)

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Pohaika Wahine,

It is an important Theosophical concept that we are in the fourth world, and on our way to the fifth world. What exactly is the fifth world, according to Hawaiian tradition?

 

[Thomas]

Hi Nick –

You said:
Why does the first page of the Bible indicate a pantheistic creation of humanity?
Where, exactly?

"Then God said: Let us make man in our image, after our likeness..." (Genesis 1.26) (emphasis added)
Attempts were made to wipe out all references to Christian Pantheism, but a few, like this one, got by the censors.
How does Gen 1:26 imply pantheism? It certainly doesn't contradict an ex nihilo causation.

Thomas

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Thomas,

"Then God said: Let us make man in our image, after our likeness..."

--> Who are these "us" people? (Members of a Pantheon.) Such plurality excludes the idea of a monotheistic creation of humanity.

Even the sentence is grammatically incorrect. It should say,

"Then the gods said: Let us make man in our image, after our likeness..."

...which is what the original scripture says.

 

[Thomas]

Nick –

Allow me to quote a Torah scholar:
"There is an enormous difficulty with the interpretation that the name Elohim signifies a sort of plurality in the godhead; for if Elohim implies a plurality of persons, how can (one) explain that the identical word Elohim in Tanach refers to Moses as well?

Regarding Moses, in Exodus 7:1, the Torah says:
"And the LORD said unto Moses, "See, I have made thee a god (Elohim) to Pharaoh, and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet." (KJV)

The word Elohim possesses a plural intensive syntax and is singular in meaning. This is self-evident from the fact that the verb "created" (bara) in Genesis 1:1 is in the singular. This linguistic pattern is well known and widely used throughout the Jewish scriptures. For example ... the Hebrew word chayim, meaning "life" ... contains the identical plural suffix "im," as in Elohim, yet it repeatedly means "life", in the singular, throughout the Bible. Examples are:

And Rebekah said to Isaac, "I am weary of my life because of the daughters of Heth; if Jacob takes a wife of the daughters of Heth, like these who are the daughters of the land, what good will my life (chayim) be to me?" (Genesis 27:46)

You have granted me life (chayim) and favor, and Your care has preserved my spirit. (Job 10:12)"

Outreach Judaism - responds directly to the issues raised by missionaries and cults. Responds to Jews For Jesus

+++

Dei Verbum, the Vatican II document on Revelation, makes the point that exegetes must take great pains to study not only Scripture, but also the literature of the people, their place and their time, and the forms and genres employed.

In light of which, without a discourse, the sacred scribe would have great difficulty in expressing what is, essentially, a profound metaphysical principle, to the Hebraic mind which is more attuned to the language of 'mythos' than, for example, the Hellenic, which delights in the abstracts of a 'logoic' philosophy. The discourse as a means of Revelation of the Word is used throughout Scripture.

I might add that to suggest to a Jew that they overlooked or knowingly ignored the primae facia evidence of polytheism in their own sacred texts reaches beyond the bounds of credulity ... bearing in mind these were the people who championed an absolute monotheism – I rather like the expression 'the supermonotheism of the Desert' – in the face of the diversity of deity in their neighbours.

Thomas

 

[pohaikawahine]

Pohaika Wahine,

It is an important Theosophical concept that we are in the fourth world, and on our way to the fifth world. What exactly is the fifth world, according to Hawaiian tradition?

aloha e nick - this is not exactly a hawaiian concept, but it is certainly a part of the overall way of life and understanding .... in a nutshell we have seven energy centers in the body, four are below the neck and three above (this corresponds to heaven and earth or sky father and earth mother or wakea and papa) the reconnection of the head (what I usually refer to as the severed head) to the body is the marriage of heaven and earth or the meeting of heaven and earth .... all symbols .... this leads us to understanding the concept of the 4th and 5th worlds .... at the lower vibrations we keep our energy levels below the neck (or in the earth) and when we finally start to reach the higher vibrations (thus the colors of blue, purple and white) we have moved into the area associated with the head and have crossed over into the fifth world .... I have always suspected this is why the color purple is associated with royalty because the knowledge (however sometimes misused) was taken from the everyday person and used for personal power by royalty (including Hawaiian) .... purple is associated with the third eye and if you know anything about colors used in Hawaii is also associated with the island of Kauai (remember Pele's dream) .... basically when we move (or cross the river styx in greek mythology) the energy into the level of the head we have moved into the heavens or world of the gods .... sorry this is so long, but it is difficult to explain in few words .... he hawai'i au, pohaikawahine p.s. that is also why the pig head is used in so many rituals .... it represents the mountain top (or the top of the head) and if you look at a mountain from a distance (especially on an island) is looks like a boar's head .... Moses went to the mountain top, Mohammed went to the mountain top .... all metaphors (in my view) of the ancient knowledge buried in stories .... there are many paths to the mountain top, but when we get there we all see the same moon .... love this stuff ....so many legends with the same inner meanings in my view:

the location of the holy grail (in the center of the brain) and the 12 knights of the round table (the head) and the 12 pairs of cranial nerves .... the search for the holy grail takes place within and all the symbols tell us how to get there

the portable temple in the wilderness .... portable because we carry it with us everywhere .... the 12 tribes (cranial nerves) and the regathering

we have a circle of 12 women .... same messages ....

the 12 gods of mount olympus ....

well .... perhaps you get the picture .... gotta go for now ....

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Thomas,

There are two issues here. (1) The Bible as it exists today, in English. (2) The original language of the Bible.

(1) I ask the question again: who are these "us" people in the English version of the Bible?

(2) For those of you who are wondering why the word Elohim has entered this discussion, the word for god/gods is Elohim in the original version of the Bible, which was later translated into English.

Elohim, the word, is masculine and plural. This is why we say gods, not God created humanity. Here is a link, if anyone is interested in studying this issue further.

Elohim: Definition and Much More from Answers.com

You have pointed out the bara/bar'u issue, as covered in the above link. This brings up the issue of the Elohim in Genesis 1:1 being a different monotheistic god than the pantheistic gods of Genesis 1:26 (which really is a different discussion for a different time). Your reference to monotheistic Genesis 1:1 still does not rule out a pantheistic nature to the gods of Genesis 1:26.

~~~

I suppose we could continue this debate on ad nausium, but both of us have made our point. Perhaps it suffices that there are two sides to the question, and it is up to the people out there to make up their own mind. Christianity teaches a monotheistic creation of humanity. Theosophy acknowledges, nay, celebrates a pantheistic creation of humanity.