Calling all veggies

moseslmpg said:
Personally, as long as the animal doesn't suffer too much, I'm fine with people eating meat. Lamentably that is not the case right now in many facilities, but then, there's nothing I can do about it.

Also, I don't think a bodhisattva would incarnate as an animal to be eaten because that would not be conducive to enlightenment, just sustenance, which you can easily get by gnawing your arm off.
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The reverse must also be true - you must not mind people causing you suffering if it suits them. The increase in popularity of free-range eggs has saved many chickens from having their beaks cut of so they don't peck themselves to death out of rage and boredom - eg. McDonalds now use free range eggs. Do you really have no responsibility as a consumer because you cannot see your choices having a direct impact? Even choosing meat, you have choices - eg. whether chicken meat is battery farmed.

The end of the Kali Yuga Vishnu is expected by Hindu's to be reincarnated as a white horse, so clearly things can be expected from animals which can be eaten.
 
No essential nature said:
The reverse must also be true - you must not mind people causing you suffering if it suits them. The increase in popularity of free-range eggs has saved many chickens from having their beaks cut of so they don't peck themselves to death out of rage and boredom - eg. McDonalds now use free range eggs. Do you really have no responsibility as a consumer because you cannot see your choices having a direct impact? Even choosing meat, you have choices - eg. whether chicken meat is battery farmed.

The end of the Kali Yuga Vishnu is expected by Hindu's to be reincarnated as a white horse, so clearly things can be expected from animals which can be eaten.
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Well, I do mind when people cause me suffering, which is why I said that as long as the suffering is minimized then people should be able to eat meat, or rather I'm not going to chain myself to a cow to stop it from dying. Unfortunately, the world is a crappy place and unfortunately there are some things that you cannot change.

Is Vishnu's avatar supposed to be eaten at the end of this age? Are you sure it's a horse, I thought it was someone on a white horse.

Btw, I neglected to mention that I am vegan (as much as possible living in college), which may have given you the wrong impression of the message of my post.
 
No essential nature said:
The end of the Kali Yuga Vishnu is expected by Hindu's to be reincarnated as a white horse
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moseslmpg said:
Is Vishnu's avatar supposed to be eaten at the end of this age? Are you sure it's a horse, I thought it was someone on a white horse.
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If I may interevene here just to clarify... According to Vaishnava Hindu belief, the next incarnation of Vishnu in the Kaliyuga is supposed to be Kalki, a human, not a horse. The puranic prophesy says that Kalki will come riding a white horse called Devadatta at the end of the Kaliyuga. However, there is a previous incarnation of Vishnu called Hayagriva (or Hayasira) who is depicted as a horse, at least from the neck up.

Regards,
A.
 
Yeah, that's what I thought (except for the Hayasira part, which I didn't know). It would be kind of strange if the last avatar (I assume it's the last) of the age was Mr. Ed. :p
 
Snoopy said:
Airborne stuff: bacteria, viruses, fungi...They may not be sentient but I'm definitely killing them (unless they kill me!)

Am I right in thinking some Buddhist monks wear masks to trap them, rather than swallow them?
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Namaste snoopy,

thank you for the post.

recall that the prohibition on killing, in the Buddha Dharma, is related to sentient beings and ones intentional actions towards them.

i suppose that we could say that if you are intentionally trying to kill bacteria and virii and all of that, that could be something to consider as productive of dark karma though i've not heard anything one way or the other about it.

i'm not sure about the wearing of masks. i've seen many, many people in Asia wearing them for a whole host of reasons, it would seem.

metta,

~v
 
Hi Vajradhara,

Thanks for your post. OK I admit that I have had to research this now and it was a faulty memory! It's a practice from Jainism, apparently:

"Accordingly, Jain monks carry a whisk to sweep aside any insects on the ground. Thy mask their mouths to avoid killing airborne microorganisms by inhaling them."

- taken from http://www.lifepositive.com/Spirit/world-religions/jainism/acharyatulsi.asp

I do recall (another faulty memory?) seeing a programme about a British Buddhist monastery where the monks ceremonially blew on the soles of their feet in rememberance of any creatures that they may have walked on.

Snoopy.
 
How exactly is sentiene defined in this case? Vegetables have supposedly exhibited some form of pain or fear, so does that count or do they have to be able to communicate their sentience?
 
"able to experience physical and possibly emotional feelings" according to the Cambridge Dictionary. I would take it to mean a life form with a differentiated central nervous system. So sprouts are OK to me.

Snoopy.

A number of religions and beliefs have lent support to vegetarianism. Brahminism, Buddhism, Jainism and Zoroastrianism all advocated an abstention from flesh foods. More recently, the Seventh Day Adventists and The Order of the Cross have advocated a vegetarian diet and many Hindus and some Roman Catholic groups adhere to a vegetarian diet.

- http://www.vegsoc.org/info/developm.html
 
Namaste moseslmpg,

thank you for the post.

moseslmpg said:
How exactly is sentiene defined in this case? Vegetables have supposedly exhibited some form of pain or fear, so does that count or do they have to be able to communicate their sentience?
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generally speaking, that which connotes sentience is the existence of a brain which can support consciousness. i have, however, seen jellyfish that do not seem to have a brain yet, i would contend, they are sentient beings as well.

recall, it is not simple the "taking of life" which is at issue here, it is the intentional act of doing it which is the real thrust of the teaching.

within the Suttas, there are many times where the Buddha Shakyamuni consumed meat when it was placed in his alms bowl. Buddhism, per se, does not mandate that one be vegetarian as there are rules in the Vinya for the consumption of flesh.

that said, it is typically encouraged as part of the practice. however, even some vegetables are considered to be "off limits" as it were, depending on ones particular school. in some forms of Vajrayana practice, one is asked to abstain from consuming onions, garlic and leeks as these are seen to be counter productive towards ones meditation.

metta,

~v
 
OK, so just don't intentionally take a life? Are cockroaches sentient, because I have a debilitating phobia of them, and even though I don't technically kill them, someone usually kills them for me. Does that count as direct or indirect killing?
 
Namaste moseslmpg,

thank you for the post.

moseslmpg said:
OK, so just don't intentionally take a life? Are cockroaches sentient, because I have a debilitating phobia of them, and even though I don't technically kill them, someone usually kills them for me. Does that count as direct or indirect killing?
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generally speaking, Buddhism is concerned with intentional actions, thoughts and words since it is it only through intentional action that karma is created.

the insect thing is tough as they are, by and large, sentient beings. i, too, have some issues with certain sorts of insects and, to my chagrin, i find that i will remove them from my home or have them removed for me.

one thing to bear in mind with regards to Buddha Dharma, in this scenario, is the possibility of creating positive karma which mitigates the reaping of the fruit of dark karma.

it is one thing to hit an insect with your car windshield whlist driving and a whole different thing to go about swatting flies with a flyswatter... and the difference is one of intention.

metta,

~v
 
Vajradhara said:
a cow can sustain a being without having to kill the cow, yogurt, milk, chesse, ghee and so forth..

metta,

~v
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I will sustain my children by any means...I have no problem with that.
 
Vajradhara said:
Namaste moseslmpg,

thank you for the post.



generally speaking, Buddhism is concerned with intentional actions, thoughts and words since it is it only through intentional action that karma is created.

the insect thing is tough as they are, by and large, sentient beings. i, too, have some issues with certain sorts of insects and, to my chagrin, i find that i will remove them from my home or have them removed for me.

one thing to bear in mind with regards to Buddha Dharma, in this scenario, is the possibility of creating positive karma which mitigates the reaping of the fruit of dark karma.

it is one thing to hit an insect with your car windshield whlist driving and a whole different thing to go about swatting flies with a flyswatter... and the difference is one of intention.

metta,

~v
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Um, :p question here, Vaj, but where do fleas, lice and mites fit into this? I mean, in most places I'm familiar with, one must kill fleas, lice and mites (as well as other pests.) How does Buddhist dharma deal with this?

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine
 
Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine said:
Um, :p question here, Vaj, but where do fleas, lice and mites fit into this? I mean, in most places I'm familiar with, one must kill fleas, lice and mites (as well as other pests.) How does Buddhist dharma deal with this?

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine
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Chalk drawn on the floor along the wall of the house I suspect. And for more than just karmic reasons. Crawling insects do not like to cross chalk "boundaries", and any animals in the house would not be subject to accidental poisoning. And chalk doesn't kill insects either. They just hate the stuff. (An elder Chinese man taught me that).

But I have a question: What about seafood? Eating it, I mean? Is that like no good too? I mean, I'd gladly give up beef and pork, if I could afford seafood...
 
Quahom1 said:
Chalk drawn on the floor along the wall of the house I suspect. And for more than just karmic reasons. Crawling insects do not like to cross chalk "boundaries", and any animals in the house would not be subject to accidental poisoning. And chalk doesn't kill insects either. They just hate the stuff. (An elder Chinese man taught me that).
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Um, Q, I don't think that would work for lice (especially head lice.) And, last I heard, most places don't want you if you have a case of head lice (since it's rather "contagious".)

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine
 
Quahom1 said:
Chalk drawn on the floor along the wall of the house I suspect. And for more than just karmic reasons. Crawling insects do not like to cross chalk "boundaries", and any animals in the house would not be subject to accidental poisoning. And chalk doesn't kill insects either. They just hate the stuff. (An elder Chinese man taught me that).
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Have you tried that? Does it really work? I might have to build a house out of chalk...
 
One of my teachers, Ven. Tenzin Kacho, advised me to use cinnamon to discourage ants from entering the house. It works great and eveyone thinks I bake alot :)

Q, there is a type of vegetarian known as "pesco" that does indeed eat fish. personally, I still think fish and other sea creatures are sentient beings but there is no doubt that such a diet would make one quite healthy as opposed to eating red meat and the other white meat.
peace
 
The thing you have to worry about with fish is mercury. There's also ovo- and lacto-vegetarians, and those people who call themselves vegetarians and eat eggs, fish, and dairy products.
 
Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine said:
Um, Q, I don't think that would work for lice (especially head lice.) And, last I heard, most places don't want you if you have a case of head lice (since it's rather "contagious".)

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine
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Mayonase kills head lice and conditions the hair...
 
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