liberal vs. literal Christian

China Cat Sunflower said:
Luna,

"Intrigued but skeptical" pretty much describes my outlook on a lot of things! It's a good way to be. I haven't responded on your post on the Judaism board because I'm not Jewish, so I can't really speak from that perspective. I'm still trying to figure out what's acceptible around here. I think you're right though about the possibility of making gematria or numerology be whatever a person wants, but the danger of self-delusion is ever-present in all facets metaphysics, spirituality, and religion. I guess each person has to decide how best to navigate in the spiritual realms.

Chris

Hi Chris, was posting simultaneously with you above. Thank you for your answer.

I'm actually a recidivist thread derailer. Apologies to wil for taking this off-topic, although I wonder how far off it really is. Liberal vs. Literal invites a pretty wide range of responses. :)

Now, back to your regularly scheduled topic...

peace,
lunamoth
 
Here are a few words on the literalism of the Bible, and something vital to consider regarding this book, I should think. The words are not my own, yet I find them well worth pondering. They do not change my faith in the least. Rather, they inform it, and help me to get past dogma, dead-letter literalism, and rather a good number of additional obstacles to understanding.
There is of course the broader question of how and when the Bible, in its presently accepted compilation, was formed. The curious story of how the early Fathers, unable to agree on which of the scriptures were genuine and which false, went about the business of selecting the canonical gospels is seldom reported. The Christian Church owes its present Bible to a practice known as sortilege, or the casting of lots, sanctified by the Church Fathers as Sortes Sanctorum. It is a form of lottery, authority for which is found in Proverbs 16:33, where it is said that "the lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the Lord." By this method of divination, now decried by the clergy as an abomination, various weighty matters in the early Church were decided. One form of the Sortes, practiced even to this day by some, is to lay the Bible upon the altar or a table, and pray the Lord to make His will known, to disclose futurity in one of the verses of the book. The Bible is then opened at random. The first verse upon which the eye falls is considered to be God's will. The Sortes was practiced in the twelfth century in the election of bishops, and even Augustine himself did not "disapprove of this method of learning futurity, provided it be not used for worldly purposes." He confesses to having practiced it himself. (See The Life of St. Gregory of Tours.)

At the Council of Nicea, held 325 [SIZE=-1]A.D.[/SIZE], 318 bishops, including the Emperor Constantine, were convened. This body chose the books to be included in the Bible. Socrates Scholasticus (385-445) in his History of the Christian Church, quotes Sabinus, the Bishop of Heraclea, as saying that "except Constantine, the emperor, and Eusebius Pamphilus, these bishops were a set of illiterate, simple creatures, that understood nothing." (Eccles. History, Book 1, Ch. 9.) Such was probably also the opinion of Pappus, who relates that, having "promiscuously put all the books that were referred to the Council for determination under a communion-table in a church, they [the bishops] besought the Lord that the inspired writings might get upon the table, while the spurious ones remained underneath, and it happened accordingly." We are not told, of course, who held the keys to the chamber during the hours of the Lord's miraculous intervention!

For almost sixteen centuries, the resulting selection, commonly known as the Bible, has been regarded by the Christian world as the "unalterable Word of God." And now, in the [20th] century, with publication of the Revised Standard Version in 1953, following earlier versions of 1611, 1881 and 1901, the Sacred Writ has again been re-translated, revised, corrected -- whole verses being occasionally clipped away, and in some cases entire chapters. Is this new "revelation" of the twentieth century, one wonders, again to be accepted as the authentic "Word of God" by all but those willing to be branded as infidels? Or should one continue to declare loyalty to the King James Version, or the Douay Version, despite knowing that these, too, are revisions of still earlier versions?
All emphases are in the original, this article being found in its entirety online at this location.

What I am left with, after all I've studied regarding the Bible's origins and history of alterations ... is that A) it still remains a useful book, with some portions being indicative enough of the general truth of things (owing partially to inspiration, but overwhelmingly to the simple nature & character of Christ Himself, which even the inaccuracies of the present Bible cannot wholly eclipse) ... and B) with the proper key, one can still ascertain to some degree various useful portions of the original authors' intent (speaking mostly of the New Testament).

Such key is freely available, and can be readily found by the earnest seeker. It can be found in literary form, in spoken form, or within one's own consciousness, where it dwells within us all. Spoken and written versions are but indications, and are only effective if they evoke the true key, within. Such was the Gospel of the Great Master, even before His words were written down. What say Christians about Truth, Salvation, and the gateway to God prior to Christ's coming? Some mighty clever notions - have been invented, methinks. ;)

But Christ did not need to invent such complications. His recognition of the Light & Love, and the Divine Potential within all whom He encountered, were indeed, literal and direct. A pity - that so many fail to recognize and believe in this same potential today. Forsooth, the Knowers are still called heretic & infidel, while those who profess most often, most loudly, and most passionately - well, as Christ said, they have their reward. (Matthew 6:2-6)

Now is that an affront on the faithful follower of the Good Shephard's Teachings? I should say not!!! The devotee who is so inspired and filled with zeal at the example set by Jesus of Nazareth, that s/he seeks at every turn to do as Jesus did (WWJD) ... is surely dear to the Master's Heart. Yet it is my belief that one can be just as sincere & true a Christian on exactly Wil's terms (without believing in any of the dogma that some folks seem to think indispensable for having the right to carry a Member's Only card). For what shall be discovered, as someone recently pointed out, is that the club is actually a Planetary Society, and in the end, all will end up in the same august company. Let us hope, by then, that the well-intentioned zealot has widened his understanding, and opened his heart, to at long last have room ... for the poor, hopeless sinners presently doomed to go about their existence - in ignorance. :rolleyes:

It is only the personality which dwells, in the house made of clay. The Soul itself, already inhabits the Father's Mansion (albeit the ground floor of the castle). We visit, from time to time, and in rare moments, the Temple of flesh may shine with the heavenly splendor. How nice it would be to be able to say, I have set up residence within the wonderful Castle. But those who truly dwell therein, do not make a fuss about it, and will never claim such status. They are known by their fruit.

Now is all this nonsense about mansions and castles and bodily temples to be taken literally? You tell me. But be sure to check with St. Teresa first. Have I taken liberties with her symbolism, and made presumptions? Yes, indeed, Dare to think outside the box. It's pretty amazing what kind of world exists out there. ;) Would you have me bow, and make obeisances to your god in the box? Inasmuch as God is God, I cannot object! Which is why we say, Namaskar. Now what about God outside the box. Careful - don't put Him in another - box! :p The Zen approach, will be useful ...

Peace,

andrew
 
After thinking about this issue for a while, IMHO, the idea of "liberal vs. literal Christian," as presented, is a false dicotomy, for this reason: the "liberal Christian," as presented here, does not subscribe to the core doctrines of Christianity. It would be like me declaring that I am a "liberal Buddhist," or a "liberal _______" {fill in whichever religion} because I like to read Buddhist scriptures, as well as other scriptures, and find truth in them, but I do not subscribe to the core doctrines of Buddhism or these other religions, and form my own opinions about them, according to my beliefs. While I may enjoy these scriptures, I would never consider trying to force my beliefs into the core doctrines of these religions by calling myself a "liberal _______ {fill in whichever religion}." I am a Christian. I would rather call myself a liberal scholar than to try to seize someone else's religion. JMHO.
 
seattlegal said:
After thinking about this issue for a while, IMHO, the idea of "liberal vs. literal Christian," as presented, is a false dicotomy, for this reason: the "liberal Christian," as presented here, does not subscribe to the core doctrines of Christianity. It would be like me declaring that I am a "liberal Buddhist," or a "liberal _______" {fill in whichever religion}...
I like the term "liberal". I AM a liberal, but I don't think it really applies here. And you're right, it sets up a false dichotomy. The "core" doctrines of Christianity...these are the core doctrines of a particular type of Christianity and nothing more. The argument here, I guess, is over who is a "real" Christian. Is a gnostic Christian a "real" Christian? Those of us outside the "mainstream" (whatever that is) find ourselves on the downside of what amounts to an apartheid system within our own faith. The "guidelines" of the Christianity board illustrate this reality perfectly. We are welcome so long as we remain, essentially, invisible. Our belief structure is an affront to the mainstream.

When we speak of our beliefs it is considered an attack on "Christianity". But our brand of "Christianity" is the original, genuine product. We are not Johnny come lately, New Agey, make-it-up-as-you-go-along Christians. Well, I'm not. This conflict is two millenia old. Gnostic, mystical Christianity came first, then the cannonists subverted it to suite the political needs of an empire. And now, two thousand years later we still can't get a seat at the table. What a load of crap!

Chris
 
China Cat Sunflower said:
When we speak of our beliefs it is considered an attack on "Christianity". But our brand of "Christianity" is the original, genuine product. We are not Johnny come lately, New Agey, make-it-up-as-you-go-along Christians. Well, I'm not. This conflict is two millenia old. Gnostic, mystical Christianity came first, then the cannonists subverted it to suite the political needs of an empire. And now, two thousand years later we still can't get a seat at the table. What a load of crap!

Chris

this is why i have tried to explain to Brian & others here a long time ago, that there needs to be a board for the gnostics. it is a completely different concept of Christian, as you have well stated.
it would have stopped this conflict.
i have seen several gnostics come through here & they have no place to go.
 
China Cat Sunflower said:
I'm not sure these labels: Literal, Liberal, moderate...Christian are at all useful. If you go all the way back to find the roots of Christianity there is a wide spectrum of ideas and scripture to examine. Those who have accepted the cannonized, Catholic Bible's version of the Christ story may hold the majority position, but that is by no means the only source material, nor does it represent the entire spectrum of early Christian thought. So, the idea that anyone with notions of what it is to be Christian that fall outside the narrow perspective of the "Church" is not a "real" Christian is absurd. One does not have to subscribe to the notion of original sin, or a literal virgin birth, or even a historical death and resurrection to be a bonafide Christian. These are not the only positions available within the total spectrum of Christology.

Having to compartmentalize a literal view of the Bible so that one can hang on to notions that are incompatible with science, like virgin birth or literal creationism, for me, creates a wall between spirit and matter. It turns religion into a meaningless anachronism.

Just my thoughts.

Chris

Hi Chris,

Re-reading the thread I just noticed this post of yours and wanted to say that I agree with what you have said, and it is well said.

I also wanted to point out that the Christianity board guidelines:

The Christianity board has a remit to discuss mainstream Christian beliefs across denominations, where the founding doctrine is that Jesus Christ offers sole salvation to humanity though His Death on the cross.

This means Catholic, Protestant, and Orthodox branches have a clear remit here, across the liberal to conservative belief spectrum. Additionally, more controversial groups, such as Mormon and Jehovah's Witnesses, in following the above doctrine, are also to be regarded as invited to discuss Christian issues from their own unique perspectives.

By the standard of all other religion boards I've visited this is a very broad and inclusive guideline. It does set up a fence but it also seems to me that good fences make good neighbors at times. Also, I don't think that this thread was moved because it was no longer 'mainstream Christian enough,' but because it really was veering into comparative issues. Frankly I see my own posts as contributing to that, and also I don't think one needs to take offense when a thread is moved to a more appropriate forum.

I enjoy your interesting and insightful posts and hope to see you continue to particpate in any thread that you wish, including in the Christianity forum.

peace,
lunamoth
 
China Cat Sunflower said:
I like the term "liberal". I AM a liberal, but I don't think it really applies here. And you're right, it sets up a false dichotomy. The "core" doctrines of Christianity...these are the core doctrines of a particular type of Christianity and nothing more. The argument here, I guess, is over who is a "real" Christian. Is a gnostic Christian a "real" Christian? Those of us outside the "mainstream" (whatever that is) find ourselves on the downside of what amounts to an apartheid system within our own faith. The "guidelines" of the Christianity board illustrate this reality perfectly. We are welcome so long as we remain, essentially, invisible. Our belief structure is an affront to the mainstream.

When we speak of our beliefs it is considered an attack on "Christianity". But our brand of "Christianity" is the original, genuine product. We are not Johnny come lately, New Agey, make-it-up-as-you-go-along Christians. Well, I'm not. This conflict is two millenia old. Gnostic, mystical Christianity came first, then the cannonists subverted it to suite the political needs of an empire. And now, two thousand years later we still can't get a seat at the table. What a load of crap!

Chris

No, you are wrong. There needs to be no special place for anyone. You are either Christian (Saved by grace, accepting the sacrifice of Jesus), or you ar not. The rest can be argued until the cows come home. It is pretty cut and dry.

The bible is pretty straight forward on the prerequisites concerning being saved. There are no exceptions to the rule.

v/r

Q
 
Sorry Chris -

Gnostic, mystical Christianity came first, then the cannonists subverted it to suite the political needs of an empire.

That's a very modern view, and if I might say, difficult to justify.

The gnosis debate was over before any reasonable suggestion can be made of church and empire - Irenaeus in the 2nd century wrote a detailed tract against false gnosis, which is where nearly all the details of the gnostic sects derive, and the church would undergo nearly another two centuries of persecution by the empire, so I would suggest your chronology is arguably questionable?

St Paul spoke out against 'gnosis so called' - Corinthians is almost entirely a condemnation of gnostic principle, and is itself a view of an orthodox Christian gnosis, Colossians is a hymn to Christian metaphysics.

The Greek philosophers likewise condemned the gnostic sects for poor philosophiocal process. One the whole the gnostic heresies were very weak but popular 'esotericisms'.

Irenaeus made a simple argument. It is unlikely, in his view, that Christ would not have instructed his chosen disciples in the true gnosis (we can see this in Scripture: Peter, James and John primarily) and that in turn they would not have instructed their successors.

The gnostics argued the successors were ignorant and they were in possession of the truth of Christianity which Christ never imparted to the disciples - even though not one gnostic was a disciple.

Even purely logically, the argument is unsound.

Shall we discuss Valentinus, or Basilides? or Celcus (not a gnostic)? Shall we examine where the difference lies in detail?

Then on the other hand we have a 'literalist' 'dead letter' etc., etc., religion which produced the like of Origen, Augustine, Pseudo Dionysius, Maximus, the Cappadocians, Aquinas, Bonaventure, Francis and Benedict, Eckhart, Theresa and St John of the Cross, de Chardin and Merton ... many of whom were themselves reformers (especially the medieval mystics) who tackled similar errors in their own day - they are the architects of your 'apartheid system'.

Sorry - but I just don't buy the argument.

Thomas
 
i think i get the picture.
this topic is really Gnostic VS. Christian?

if so, subtle a usual, i see the politics now:)
 
Just to let you know I removed 2+ pages of pages from this thread which were essentially little more than arguing.

Let's try and keep this on topic if we can.

ADDED: Moved back to the Christianity section.
 
Not meaning to stir things up, but these verses were studied in my Bible study this week, and I think speak to this ongoing debate about who is and who isn't a Christian...

"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. You were running a good race. Who cut in on you and kept you from obeying the truth? That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. ... The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other." (Galatians 5:6-8, 14-15)

Even back in the early church, partisan strife and a constant effort to denounce some people as heretics threatened the body of Christ.

I believe that anyone who professes they are saved by the grace of God, through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, who embraces His Love and whose life shows the fruits of the Spirit is Christian. It is simple. We are to have the faith of children. Children do not worry about if creation literally took six days, if Mary was a virgin, and if the Bible is literally, metaphorically, or allegorically true. They are just happy Jesus loves them. They just accept God's grace.

I think it is sad that we Christians, in many denominations and churches, spend much of our time expounding on why all the other types of Christians don't have it right and aren't "real" Christians.

When will we learn that this partisan strife appears, to those outside Christianity all together, as a direct evidence that we are NOT in Christ? For they expect to see Christ's love shining through us, and our bickering and condemning one another, the sense of superiority rather than humility many of us portray, is not in alignment with the scriptures (at least, I can't see how it could be).

I am a "liberal" Christian- I still believe Jesus is my Savior, that I am saved by the grace of God. If other people want to shove me outside the fold because I don't agree with them on issues such as a literal 6-day creation or that Jonah was definitely literally living inside a fish for three days, so be it. I'll call myself a Christ-follower if people don't want to let me call myself Christian.

But I refuse to shove others outside the fold. I can decide that the Spirit calls me to not follow certain doctrinal teachings without condemning those who do believe in those teachings to not being Christians. Perhaps that seems contradictory, but it isn't. There was a sermon recently on the difference between the neccesity of judging (for ourselves) what is good and in God's will for us (us in the sense of ourselves- me individually), and the command NOT to judge or condemn (for others). This is why, for example, though I hold "Thou shalt not kill" to literally mean that human life is God's and we are not to kill, I do not condemn those Christians who believe that there are exceptions to this rule (and are thus not taking these words literally)- that war, capital punishment, abortion, euthanasia, etc. are acceptable kinds of killing and not sinful. I do not call them non-Christians simply because in this case they are taking the words non-literally and I take them literally.

I think being a Christian is really simple. You are either saved by the grace of God, given through Jesus Christ, or you don't believe that's how salvation is attained (and hence are not a Christian). You either believe in and try to emulate Jesus Christ's teachings and example, or you don't. You either are striving toward having your life be a testimony of God's love for His creation (each other and this earth) or you aren't. All else- the doctrinal differences, the beliefs, the interpretations... in the end it doesn't really matter. It is interesting, intriguing, but ultimately irrelevant. It is our relationship with Christ that counts.
 
I'm wondering ...

I think I am safe in saying that everyone here knows me as a pretty firm Catholic, and if you don't know me, then I think others here will vouch for me in that regard ... but what if I was to declare myself not a Catholic at all, but a liberal Buddhist?

The Buddha said:
"This is suffering; this is the origin of suffering; this is the cessation of suffering; this is the way leading to the cessation of suffering."
(Samyutta Nikaya, LVI, 31)

I can agree to that. I can say that everything Buddha wrote was largely correct, with a few provisions, notably that he was wrong regarding the precise nature of reincarnation, and of God - but that the error is because Buddhism has misunderstood and distorted the meaning of his words to suit its own doctrinal ends. His words weren't written down for 400 years, so no amount of invention has found its way into the texts. What's left is a dead-letter populist understanding of what was an esoteric discourse.

The Buddha said:
"So too, bhikkhus, the things that I have known by direct knowledge are more; the things that I have told you are only a few. Why have I not told them? Because they bring no benefit"
(Samyutta Nikaya, LVI, 31)

I can agree to that, too. Not everyone is capable of 'direct knowledge' or gnosis, preferring to be told rather than think for themselves, but I have searched around, and gleaned knowledge of the 'more' than the average orthodox Buddhist, but when I tell them I understand their faith better than they do, it annoys them but, as Kurt Vonnegut is won't to say, "so it goes", I'm more of a Buddhist than they are, obviously.

So Buddhism is right about a lot of things, but wrong about a lot of things too, and wrong about the fundamentals, but that doesn't matter because aspects of the overall message are OK, and I enjoy meditation.

Buddha, Dharma, Sangha? Well, I believe in what Buddha said, in broad outline, I mean, in an abstract sense, in principle he hasn't said anything different from anyone else, I mean, we all know life's a bitch, and then you die, right? You don't have to believe literally in what he said though, obviously, just generally; anyway, I know the truth when I see it; and some of what is taught is OK, other stuff a bit off the mark, I mean, have you seen what some of those so-called Buddhists got up to? Sheesh! Ninja-monks, I ask you! Compassion and kung-fu! But it's the thought that counts, eh?

I wonder ... Does that make me a liberal Buddhist?

namaste,

Thomas
 
hi Path:)

i think we are a lot in agreement as for concerning establshed catholic protestant denomination & doctrines.
i dont think this thread is really about those established views of what it is literal & liberal that would be completely inclusive to the intrepretations of the 66 books or even the definition given by CR and to keeping them in tact.

i am seeing a different critical look at the scriptures, all together, which is why there is so much confusion.
i also dont think anyone has defined them, with the exception of Quahom from a morality perspective & that is where i see liberal & conservative in our action, as you mentioned with the commandment of not killing, yet the scripture declares there is a time for peace & a time for war. nevertheless, there is still a boundary.

i think there is a reason as to why liberal is not being well defined here. i am thinking in this particular case it is being referenced to creativity & imagination where you can wander, BY INCLUDING & EXCLUDING writings & imagination, thus veering from the foundation & there is no real boundary or core by doing this.

for example i can write with my own imagination of Jesus doing & talking & include a lot of fantasy- and everything becomes fantasy. much like alice in wonderland.
from another view of liberal where there are no boundaries, if i took my liberal views into another established relgion, it would eventually eat away & destroy that particular faith, religion & and an individuals faith...wether intentional or not intentional.

for example can i take my views of Jesus as Messiah into Judaism and call it Liberal Judaism? & insist my view is valid?
Can i take my beliefs of the death burial & resurrection into Islam & call it Liberal Islam? & proclaim that I am a Muslim? would that be acceptable with them?
Does Liberal Buddhism include the 66 Books & the literal God of Abraham?
as anyone can see, it is not going to work very well & it is going to create problems for the people in those religions because they are defined as something different & have a guideline that would not permit it without changing the religion & its main thought.

a literal view within a particular religion does not do this because there are things established & guidelines that make it what it is.

to a degree, everyone is liberal & literal. everyone is fundamental. everyone is loose. yet, without a core & a foundation & some principles, you dont have much of anything.

from another perspective you can view liberal as applying a lot of something, for example a liberal prayer life, or i liberally go to church- meaning i go to church often & i pray often. i lberally applied a lot of oil to the hinge or i will liberally get around to applying oil to the hinge.

or i liberally dont go to church often & i pray whenever i feel like it. it can be viewed as 'loose' or a lot of something. it kind of lacks some discipline & balance IMO.

while i consider myself a conservative or literal Christian- because i come to the same basic conclusions of mainstream, i have alternate routes of getting to the same basic conslusions of traditional & thus many would view me as a liberal.
i can remain open to liberal views & at the same time not be too effected because my faith is built on a strong foundation that has been tested because i chose to test it:) .
though i see the liberal view could bring harm to established faith, especially to those young in the faith of the Lord Jesus Christ & the Bible.
OTH- an extreme literalist can also bring harm because they are not being careful with that which was first delivered.

are you familiar with things like Jesus Seminar, Gnosticism, Jesus Mysteries, historical Jesus & things like that?

there are some very extreme literal views in some of these smaller movements that attempt to challenge Christians, though they would call themselves liberal- i dont not view them as liberal, but rather literalists at the opposite end of the spectrum.

you have those who gather their own beliefs & you have those who scatter other peoples beliefs.

IMHO - anyone truly following Jesus & the BIble does not need all these titles & definitions that are at hand. i feel it brings more confusion & division than anything:)
 
Thomas said:
I'm wondering ...


I wonder ... Does that make me a liberal Buddhist?

namaste,


Thomas

that is what i am getting at also, Thomas:)
how long would the (my) liberal view of these other religions, that set out to remove the core prinicpal be tolerated.

not long!
 
Quahom1 said:
The bible is pretty straight forward on the prerequisites concerning being saved. There are no exceptions to the rule.Q

Q, where is the Bible specific on the prerequisites of being saved? I would like to know when that was written also. What of those that didn't meet the prerequisites prior to their documentation? Were they to be held accountable for not having known prior to their death??
 
hey didymus:)

can you define your beliefs for me? are you a liberal or a literal & what does that mean to you.?
what parts of the bible do you keep & what parts of the bible do you discard?

i know from our last talks you already tossed Paul, but what but the others.

what parts are the fairy tale & what parts are real to you?
 
didymus said:
Q, where is the Bible specific on the prerequisites of being saved? I would like to know when that was written also. What of those that didn't meet the prerequisites prior to their documentation? Were they to be held accountable for not having known prior to their death??

John is a good start. And no, those who did not know are not held accoutable for what they did not know. Their's is the law written upon their hearts. Did they follow that? Then they are judged accordingly. God does not handicap anyone, due to ignorance. I believe you would call that God's grace...

John's book is considered written within 70 years of Jesus' death, hence within a generation. There is also speculation that the Book of John was written by Lazarus (who witnessed all from his own perspective as opposed to third person accounts). Not only that, but if correct, he lived died and lived again, and knows with an innate knowledge what is to come next, concerning our transition from this life to the next part.

Am I arrogant in my way of thinking? No, I simply choose to believe...

my thoughts

v/r

Q
 
Hats off to path of one for a great passage that bears repeating

"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. You were running a good race. Who cut in on you and kept you from obeying the truth? That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. ... The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other." (Galatians 5:6-8, 14-15)
 
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path_of_one said:
I think it is sad that we Christians, in many denominations and churches, spend much of our time expounding on why all the other types of Christians don't have it right and aren't "real" Christians.

When will we learn that this partisan strife appears, to those outside Christianity all together, as a direct evidence that we are NOT in Christ? For they expect to see Christ's love shining through us, and our bickering and condemning one another, the sense of superiority rather than humility many of us portray, is not in alignment with the scriptures (at least, I can't see how it could be).

Well said. And indeed, you are correct in your assessment, IMO.

Actually, I have a question, and I'm guessing that this is the correct forum in which to raise it.

Do the various Churches have differences on what is called by some "the Arian heresy"? Or Origen’s assertion that there are degrees of divinity?

Or should I start a new topic?
 
New topic may be good, as they are distinctly Early Church topics. :)
 
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