Respectful questions on a difficult subject

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

In light of the percieved increase in intolerance of Muslims in the Netherlands, the Dutch lesbian periodical Zij aan Zij has dedicated an entire issue to Islam, focussing on its position on lesbianism, with the aim of increasing understanding. The issue contains articles about coming out or hiding one's sexuality within the Muslim community, interviews with Dutch politicians, and many interviews with Muslims, male and female, prominent and not, straight and not, Dutch and foreign, most (but not all) of whom are positive towards or at least tolerant of lesbianism. Granted, the aim of the issue is to increase understanding and tolerance of Muslims among lesbians ("See? Don't automatically assume they all hate us"). But I'm curious how a less biased group of Muslims would respond to some of the points brought up in different articles.

All quotes are my own translations from the articles' original Dutch, and I apologize for any errors.

From an interview with Canadian lesbian activist (and practicing Muslim) Irshad Manji:

"The Koran says that everything that God creates is excellent and that God has a purpose for everything. He has only placed on earth those things that He wants to be there. Therefore if God hadn't wanted to make us [lesbians], we wouldn't exist."

Elsewhere in the same interview:

Many passages in the Koran are about diversity and live-and-let-live, says Irshad. "Every interpretation is possible - and therefore also challengeable. The Koran gives us the possibility for debate. It is an intelligent book."

From an article entitled "What does the Koran say about lesbians?"

The term 'fahisha' comprises all sexually tinted expressions outside Islamic marriage. You could probably best translate it as provocative sexual behaviour in word or deed. This includes, among other things, adultery, public exhibitionism, and obscene language, as well as openly homosexual behaviour, according to another Koran verse (4:15). In this verse a connection is made with lesbian women. It says, directed to women, 'If there are two among you women who commit fahisha, call out four witnesses against them. If they give testimony, then keep them indoors (or move away), until death or until God offers them a solution.' If you read this passage somewhat freely, according to [author Omar] Nahas, you quickly discover room for different interpretations. The phrase 'keep them indoors' can mean that the women must be kept under house arrest separately, but it can also be interpreted as: 'Place them together in a space designated for that purpose, so that they can determine for themselves how they organize their private life.' Here it involves a liberal interpretation. For most Muslims this is not acceptable, because such interpretations fall outside the recognized rules of the science of Koran interpretation.

I'm particularly interested in knowing more about the "rules of the science of Koran interpretation". Also, at various points in the magazine reference is made to the fact that nearly all Koran scholars are male, often because of the idea that it is not the job or even the right of women to study the Koran. To what extent is this accurate? How is the validity of Manji's comments affected by the fact that she is a woman? By the fact that she is a lesbian? Or is what she says accurate (or not) regardless of who would say it? Why? Are there other interpretations for verse 4:15? What other verses apply to lesbians or lesbian behaviour, and are there similar efforts at reinterpreting these verses? How much right does Nahas, or anyone, have to reinterpret verses such as this?

As I said, I recognize that the viewpoints put forth in the magazine are overwhelmingly biased to lesbians' advantage. I want to know what a less weighted group of Muslims has to say about these ideas. I'm not planning to try to change anyone's mind or attack anyone's point of view, I'm not trolling, and I'm not trying to pick a fight. I very much appreciate anything anyone has to say on this.

 

[Yaqinud Din]

From an interview with Canadian lesbian activist (and practicing Muslim) Irshad Manji:

Irshad Manji is a Kafir.

The Koran says that everything that God creates is excellent and that God has a purpose for everything. He has only placed on earth those things that He wants to be there. Therefore if God hadn't wanted to make us [lesbians], we wouldn't exist."

Lesbianism is a Mental illness.

How is the validity of Manji's comments affected by the fact that she is a woman? By the fact that she is a lesbian? Or is what she says accurate (or not) regardless of who would say it?

1.She is Kafir.
2.She can't read Arabic.
3.She has a deep hate for Islam.
4.She is not a Scholar.

Hope this helps

 

[thipps]

First and foremost, no word games plz. When you write ‘at least tolerant of lesbianism’, that directly insinuates that anyone who doesn’t say ‘being lesbian/gay is ok’ is intolerant. This contemporary definition of tolerance that ‘all is good’ is rejected. I suggest not wasting time throwing that word (‘tolerance’) around. We agree with what our Lord has commanded. We must submit to Allaah on His terms, not ours. You come to your Lord completely and fully. There is no negotiating table here.

I'm particularly interested in knowing more about the "rules of the science of Koran interpretation".

The question you have asked is of fundamental importance. I will inshallah answer this question of yours in a separate post as I need to look for the particular links which have the details. For now, one example:
He(pbuh) said: "Indeed, the Children of Israa'eel split into seventy-one sects and my Ummah will split into seventy-three sects, all of them are in the Fire except for one." It was said, "What is the one?" He replied, "That which I and my companions are upon." [Tirmidhee (no. 2792), al-Haakim (1/128-129), al-Lalikaa'ee (no. 147) and others - Declared Hasan by Shaikh al-Albaanee]

Also, at various points in the magazine reference is made to the fact that nearly all Koran scholars are male, often because of the idea that it is not the job or even the right of women to study the Koran. To what extent is this accurate?

Completely false.
Best example I can think of is 'Aa’ishah (may Allah be pleased with her), who was the daughter of Hazrat Abu Bakr, the first Khalifa of Islam, (may Allah be pleased with him), and the wife of our beloved Prophet Muhammed (may peace be upon him).
She gave guidance even to the Sahabas (Companions of the Prophet) and to the Khalifas. She was not only expert in the Religious field, she had profound knowledge of medicine. Furthermore, many times the companions came to her to ask problems of ‘Inheritance’. She herself has narrated 2210 ahaadith. She is said to have taught more than 88 scholars - In short, she was a scholar of the scholars.
As a side-note, a friend of mine is engaged to a woman who is training to be a scholar. Lucky fellow.

How is the validity of Manji's comments affected by the fact that she is a woman? By the fact that she is a lesbian? Or is what she says accurate (or not) regardless of who would say it? Why?

She being a woman has nothing to do with it.
The fact that she is lesbian trying to find support in the Quran (using personal interpretations) for her behaviour should show her clear bias.
Accuracy requires proof from Quran and sunnah. She must bring proof if she is truthful. Personal interpretations to suit one’s deviant behaviour is not proof.

Are there other interpretations for verse 4:15? What other verses apply to lesbians or lesbian behaviour, and are there similar efforts at reinterpreting these verses? How much right does Nahas, or anyone, have to reinterpret verses such as this?

Regarding 4:15 and any other verse, the answer will be the same as for the first part of your question, regarding which I will inshallah write more in a separate post. The methodology of interpretation of the Quran is known and this is not being followed by Irshad Manji or Nahas; hence rejected.
I’ve said it before that the Sunnah explains the Qur'an. You can't do without it. Having knowledge of the Arabic language won’t negate its necessity either. Otherwise, you can make lawful many many other things too. I could even show that there exists the possibility of the Qur’aan allowing 9 wives! I wonder what Irshad manji, being a woman and all, would say about that

I would suggest a treatise (only 18 pages) on this subject entitled:
The status of the Sunnah in Islam BY Imam Muhammad Naasir-ud-Din Al-Albaanee.
btw, Sheikh Al-Albaanee was a hadith expert. I will write the summary here for you:
It is an obligation on all of the Muslims to not differentiate between the Qur'aan and the Sunnah, with regard to the obligation of accepting both of them together and establishing Laws based on both of them. Indeed this is the guarantee that will prevent them from drifting to the right and the left, and from returning to deviation.
This is as the Prophet (pbuh) clearly stated: "I have left two things for you, which you will never go astray so long as you adhere to them: The Book of Allaah and my Sunnah. These two will never separate from one another until they return to the Fountain." [Reported by Maalik and Al-Haakim with a sound chain of narration].
So now think about it, these people are making personal interpretations and leaving the sunnah aside. And, there is no doubt, in light of hadith above that these people have gone astray. One hadith is enough, no need to fill pages.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

I'm sorry it has taken a while for me to get back to this thread. Yaqinud Din and thipps, thank you very much for taking the time to respond to my questions.

1.She is Kafir.
2.She can't read Arabic.
3.She has a deep hate for Islam.
4.She is not a Scholar.

On what do you base these statements? Granted, I don't know much about Irshad Manji or her writings, but what I have seen would tend to imply the opposite, in my opinion. Particularly your third assertion, but I am open to any more information you are willing to share with me. I would also like to know what more specifically you mean by saying that she is not a Scholar. Do you mean specifically a scholar of the Quran? In that case, I am sure you are right, but she does seem to fit my (general) definition of a scholar - among other things, she is a Visiting Fellow at Yale.

thipps, I am sorry for the misunderstanding about the phrase I used, 'tolerant of lesbianism'. I was not trying to insinuate anything about anyone. I was using 'tolerant' in the literal sense, that of tolerating or putting up with something. I perhaps could better have said 'are positive towards or at least put up with lesbianism.' I appreciate your detailed response and I am looking forward to your post about the science of Quran interpretation. You have cleared up some of my own misconceptions and answered my questions in a way that is easy for me to grasp, as I know very little about Islam and so have little background information to work with.

If anyone else has anything they would like to add, I am still curious to hear more.

 

[Yaqinud Din]

I know very little about Islam and so have little background information to work with.

I don't know much about Irshad Manji or her writings, but what I have seen would tend to imply the opposite, in my opinion.

I would also like to know what more specifically you mean by saying that she is not a Scholar. Do you mean specifically a scholar of the Quran?

I mean what I said she is not a Islamic Scholar and she is not a Muslim.

What would be best for you is to read up about Islam then you will know what I'm talking about. I will give you some links


http://www.albani.co.uk/

http://www.spubs.com/sps/

http://www.binbaz.co.uk/

http://www.therighteouspath.com/home/

http://www.troid.org/

http://www.fatwa-online.com/

 

[Out There]

Quote:
"The Koran says that everything that God creates is excellent and that God has a purpose for everything. He has only placed on earth those things that He wants to be there. Therefore if God hadn't wanted to make us [lesbians], we wouldn't exist."


What she's trying to insinuate is that "homosexuality" is biologically inherent in homosexuals. Thus if it's biological than it is God's work and we shouldn't question it. Homosexuality is not biological, many researches have been conducted on this matter but no conclusive evidence have ever been produced to substantiate such a theory. The theory remains an hypothesis and NOT a fact. But let's say we agree with her philosophy. "Lesbianism" is a natural phenomenon, God made them that way. Everything that God creates is excellent and that God has a purpose for everything. I don't contend this, in fact I agree with this first statement through and through. The second statement, is that He has only placed those things that He wants to be there. This too I agree with, as nothing can ever come to pass without His permission. From these two statements, the author comes to the rash conclusion that "Therefore if the previous statements are true, than if God hadn't wanted to make us "lesbians", we wouldn't exist. What she's trying to do is to tie her maladjusted and unnatural behaviour with God's decisions and justify it as such. Let's say we agree with her philosophy which may seem reasonable on the face of it. Then let us pose this question, if what this person have philosophied is true, then are murderers, rapists, paedophiles, etc. also the creations of God? They're everywhere..killers, robbers, molestors etc. etc. By her proposition they would not exist if God had not wanted them to. I agree but does that justify their deeds? She's treading on a very thin line. May God guide her.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Again, I apologize for the delay - my schedule of studies leaves me with only intermittent time for the internet. Thank you, Aidyl Nurhadi, for your thoughtful post. Yaqinud Din, you have given me a lot of links and I would like to read them attentively, which will take a while. Please have patience.

 

[kiwimac]

Firstly,

Lesbianism and Homosexuality are NOT mental illnesses. A mental Illness is one which is defined in a number of different ways, viz

the term that refers collectively to all mental disorders. Mental disorders are health conditions that are characterized by alterations in thinking, mood or behavior (or some combination thereof) associated with distress and/or impaired functioning.
www.fountainhouse.org/moxie/resources/resources_glossary/index.shtml

A state of being in which an individual has difficulty in handling situations and feelings of an everyday nature. In certain instances, conditions are characterized by impairment of intellectual functions, the experience of shallow and unstable emotions, and difficulty in adapting to one's environment.
www.cmpmhmr.cog.pa.us/glossary.htm

A broad range of disorders with psychological or behavioral symptoms and/or impairment in functioning due to a social, psychological, genetic, physical/chemical or biological disturbance.
www.longislandpsych.org/PatientRes/ImptTerms/ImptTerms.html

A general term referring to psychological, emotional, or behavioral disorders as well to the view that these disorders are diseases of the mind.
www.socialpolicy.ca/m.htm

Mental illness refers collectively to all diagnosable mental health problems that become “clinical,” that is where a degree of professional intervention and treatment is required. Generally, the term refers to more serious problems, rather than, for example, a mild episode of depression or anxiety requiring temporary help.
www.wfmh.org/wmhday/sec3_pt3_4_glossary.html

A psychiatric or psychological condition regardless of cause such as schizophrenia, depression, manic depressive or bipolar illness, anxiety, personality disorders and/or adjustment disorders or other conditions. These conditions are usually treated by a mental health provider or other qualified provider using psychotherapy, psychotropic drugs, or other similar methods of treatment.
www.vpaweb.com/About/glossary/default.asp

Secondly,

There has been quite an amount of research which has shown that structures in the brains of lesbians and homosexuals most often resemble those in the brains of the opposite heterosexual sex, ie, lesbian brain structures are similar to heterosexual males as well homosexual males have been shown to respond to human pheromones in much the same way as heterosexual women.

Gay men employ the same strategies for navigating as women - using landmarks to find their way around - a new study suggests.

But they also use the strategies typically used by straight men, such as using compass directions and distances. In contrast, gay women read maps just like straight women, reveals the study of 80 heterosexual and homosexual men and women.

"Gay men adopt male and female strategies. Therefore their brains are a sexual mosaic,"" explains Qazi Rahman, a psychobiologist who led the study at the University of East London, UK. "It's not simply that lesbians have men's brains and gay men have women's brains."

The stereotype that women are relatively poor map readers is borne out by a reasonable bulk of scientific literature, notes Rahman. "Men, particularly, excel at spatial navigation."

The new study might help researchers understand how cognitive differences and sexual orientation develop in the womb, he says.

Left at the church

Previous tests challenging men and women to make their way through virtual-reality mazes, or real-life scenarios, have shown that men tend to be speedier and use different strategies to women.

But Rahman points out this does not mean that all women are bad map readers, or that it is the mental strategy employed that makes the difference.

Women tend to navigate using landmarks. For example: "Turn left at the church and carry on past the corner shop." Rahman told New Scientist that "men rely more on the points of the compass; they have a better sense of north, south, east and west". They are also more likely to describe distances.

"Cross-sex shifts"

Rahman and his colleagues designed the study to test a theory that gay men and lesbian women might show "cross-sex shifts" in some cognitive abilities as well as in their sexual preferences.

The hypothesis is that homosexual people shift in the direction of the opposite sex in other aspects of their psychology other than sexual preference. That is, gay men may take on aspects of female psychology, and lesbians acquire aspects of male psychology.

Gay men did indeed show a "robust cross-sex shift" in the study, says Rahman. Volunteers were asked to look at a pictorial map and memorise four different routes for about a minute. They then had to recall the information as though they were giving a friend directions from one place to another.

"As we expected, straight men used more compass directions than gay men or women, and used distances as well. Women recalled significantly more landmarks," says Rahman. But gay men recalled more landmarks than straight men, as well as using typically male orientation strategies.

Verbal fluency

The difference between gay men and lesbian women might hint at differences in development, says Rahman. Previous work has shown that lesbians show little difference in their cognitive skills compared with straight women.

The only measure on which they appear to shift is on language production or verbal fluency, he adds. Like straight men, lesbians tend to be more sparing with words than straight women. Gay men, however, are inclined to speak as much as straight women.

"It might be that whatever causes sexual orientation and cognitive differences are uncoupled in lesbian development, while in gay men the two things could be tightly coupled," Rahman suggests.

Source: http://brainblogger.com/archive/2005_02_20_GNIF_archive.html

Prejudice is STILL prejudice when it is dressed up in religious clothes.

Kiwimac

 

[Yaqinud Din]

Prejudice is STILL prejudice when it is dressed up in religious clothes.

Yes I'm Prejudice when it comes to gays and alot of other things as well If you don't like it to bad and YES it is a mental ILLNESS.

 

[kiwimac]

Yes I'm Prejudice when it comes to gays and alot of other things as well If you don't like it to bad and YES it is a mental ILLNESS.

Thank you for your deeply thought out and well-considered answer. No, homosexuality is not a mental illness and it is not one regardless of how many times you repeat that it is. All you show is your own ignorance and prejudice.

Would you enjoy being told that being a Muslim made you mentally ill? A person is almost certainly born with a predilection to homosexuality, where does this leave you? If they are genetically predisposed to "gayness" then obviously God intends them to be that way (given an all-powerful God.)

As a worshipper of the Lord, Good and Wise. I firmly believe that God loves all folk, seeks relationship with all folk and is compassionate towards all.

Homosexuals, no less than heterosexuals, seek fulfilment in their relationships with both God and their fellow humans.

In peace and Good Mind

Kiwimac

 

[mansio]

Muslims seem to believe in predestination. So I agree with Kiwimac that if a person is born with a tendency to homosexuality it must be from God. If it were not from God that would mean something escapes from God's omnipotence.

 

[iBrian]

Okay, just a polite note to say that this thread is on the Islam board - which means it's for Muslims to provide Muslim perspectives.

If we want to suggest or criticise any religious perspective, they would probably do better to post or start a new thread on the Politics or Comparative Studies boards, thanks.

 

[paul]

It defies logic to say people are homosexual therefore God must have made them this way.

What of peodophiles those who have sex with animals, would you say the same of these.

Fact is God made us male and female, we can see this clearly, we have reproductive organs which of the coming together of these two seperate sexes in the act of having sex can reproduce a new life of the same species.

We all come from a father and mother, male and female, this is clearly the natural God created way of life.

Homosexuals acts are against the nature God created for us.

Sorry i'm not a Muslim but reading through this, i can't help but state the obvious.

If God created us, and the creation of God is clearly seen from the creation of the natural life around us, then how can such a vile act, such an unatural act to the natural order of life around us, and the own nature of our bodies ever be said to be of God who craeted us.

 

[kiwimac]

Actually Brian,

I was not criticising ISLAM but the viewpoint of a particular MUSLIM. Islam is capable of having a variety of viewpoints encapsulated within it (Salaffiyah / Wahabbiyyah POVs notwithstanding.)

Kiwimac

 

[thipps]

kiwimac, Islam cannot change for you or any homosexual. Homosexuality is forbidden in Islam. Don't like it.. as Brian said, you can take it somewher else.

 

[kiwimac]

Thipps,

My wife will be VERY surprised to discover I am a homosexual. Aren't preconceptions a bitch!

As for taking it elsewhere as you can imagine I will but nonetheless one must speak truth to power regardless of how popular / unpopular it makes you.

Kiwimac

 

[thipps]

Thipps,

My wife will be VERY surprised to discover I am a homosexual. Aren't preconceptions a bitch!

As for taking it elsewhere as you can imagine I will but nonetheless one must speak truth to power regardless of how popular / unpopular it makes you.

Kiwimac

as for ur wife, the word 'shock' comes to mind and a few others but thats not our topic.
and i seem to recall that the person who propounded this theory that… ‘Homosexuality is Genetic’ - he himself was a homosexual.
oh and since u r urself one, no surprise that your defending the whole thing so strongly. But again, this is the Islam forum, not the homosexual rights forum. so please refrain from attacking Islam, regardless of your sexual orientation. Please read the CoC if you have doubts.
thipps.

 

[kiwimac]

Thipps,

Let me be clear:

I am not a homosexual, one need not be something in order to defend those being attacked by others.

I am a married man (14 years last count) 3 children and I still believe homosexuals are just a worthy of God's love as anyone else.

I am not attacking Islam, just a muslim. There is a considerable difference which you do not seem to acknowledge. NMP. I am a theologian, thinker and dreamer. I have considerable experience in comparative religious studies including studies in Islam.

Kiwimac

 

[Out There]

Thipps,

My wife will be VERY surprised to discover I am a homosexual. Aren't preconceptions a bitch!

As for taking it elsewhere as you can imagine I will but nonetheless one must speak truth to power regardless of how popular / unpopular it makes you.

Kiwimac

you're confusing people.......lol

 

[redindica]

If Homosexuality is an illness and the comments towards it on this thread are insulting towards kiwiman and his motivations and the "act itself" is dispised by the contributers on this thread.

In this light does Islam allow sick people to be hated like this? If so where is it written

Peace
Redindica