Ezekiel's vision

[iBrian]

KJV version:
http://www.comparative-religion.com/christianity/bible-king-james-version/old-testament/ezekiel.php

Ezekiel 1:15 Now as I beheld the living creatures, behold one wheel upon the earth by the living creatures, with his four faces.

Ezekiel 1:16 The appearance of the wheels and their work was like unto the colour of a beryl: and they four had one likeness: and their appearance and their work was as it were a wheel in the middle of a wheel.

Ezekiel 1:17 When they went, they went upon their four sides: and they turned not when they went.

Ezekiel 1:18 As for their rings, they were so high that they were dreadful; and their rings were full of eyes round about them four.

Ezekiel 1:19 And when the living creatures went, the wheels went by them: and when the living creatures were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up.

Ezekiel 1:20 Whithersoever the spirit was to go, they went, thither was their spirit to go; and the wheels were lifted up over against them: for the spirit of the living creature was in the wheels.

Ezekiel 1:21 When those went, these went; and when those stood, these stood; and when those were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up over against them: for the spirit of the living creature was in the wheels.

Ezekiel's vision is perplexing and cryptic - I've seen printings that tried to visualise the four wheels as like the wheels of a cart, or similar.

However, I remember once watching a video of the Indian epic the Mahabharata, and in that each lord sat in a chariot, surrounded by rings of soldiers to guard his chariot - it appeared they were trying to recreate an ancient method of warfare.

I remember at the time suddenly thinking of Ezekiel's vision, and this as a better interpretation of how to perceive the wheels, as opposed to a cart.

Now I look back on the Ezekiel quote, I'm not quite so sure.

Anyway, a thread about good ol' Ezekiel's famous vision.

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Brian!

Touche!

May I add a couple of other passages that came to mind concerning this subject?

II Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

II Kings 2:12 And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces.

II Kings 6:15 And when the servant of the man of God was risen early, and gone forth, behold, an host compassed the city both with horses and chariots. And his servant said unto him, Alas, my master! how shall we do?

II Kings 6:16 And he answered, Fear not: for they that be with us are more than they that be with them.

II Kings 6:17 And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.

http://www.comparative-religion.com/christianity/bible-king-james-version/old-testament/II-kings.php

So, counting the possibilities of the Nephilim, Ezekiel's "wheel within a wheel," and the "chariots of fire" that both carried away Elijah and protected Elisha, there are some intriguing possibilities of "alien" intervention in the lives of humans. There is nothing to indicate this has ceased to be.

I would be very grateful for Bananabrain or Dauer to add their understanding of these...please.

 

[InLove]

Hi--Peace to All Here--

Just a couple of thoughts to add. It is my understanding that the number 4 in the Scriptures is indicative of completeness. The four creatures which move within the Spirit in Ezekial's vision can also be found in The Revelation. The wheels that move in four directions have been described somewhere (sorry, can't recall just where at the moment) as intersecting wheels, wheels that could move in any direction, representative of this characteristic of God. (This could coincide with juantoo3's description of a "wheel within a wheel).

I think that the picture of warfare fits here--but I believe this vision points first to spiritual warfare. I do see the parallels, though. Good question to ponder.

InPeace,
InLove

 

[InLove]

Hi Again--

To add one more thought while addressing juan's comparison (too late to edit), I think that it is important to note that the account in Ezekial is introduced as the vision of a prophet, while (if I am not mistaken) the passages in Kings are presented as an actual event. Don't know that this makes too much difference in the discussion at hand, but thought it worth mentioning.

InPeace,
InLove

 

[wil]

to add to the mix...

Ezekiel 1:22 And the likeness of the firmament upon the heads of the living creature was as the colour of the terrible crystal, stretched forth over their heads above.....Ezekiel 1:24 And when they went, I heard the noise of their wings, like the noise of great waters, as the voice of the Almighty, the voice of speech, as the noise of an host: when they stood, they let down their wings....Ezekiel 1:25 And there was a voice from the firmament that was over their heads, when they stood, and had let down their wings.

a firmament...the dome above their heads was crystal...ever stood by big water fall or a roaring river...as deafening as jet taking off, or a helicopter landing...and the voice of wings adjusting...

I would be very grateful for Bananabrain or Dauer to add their understanding of these...please.

ditto

 

[didymus]

Some speculate that this vision by Ezekiel was of a UFO and aliens. To me it sounds as though he may have been in a trance when this occured.

 

[Quahom1]

counter rotating blades of an helicopter creates a wheel within a wheel, and lifts one up to the clouds...

And when a helicopter's "wings" stop moving, they droop. And a pilot in helmet and resperator (and anti flash visor over the face), looks alot like a pig faced man with eyes of burnished gold.

And we have "jet packs" that can lift a single man into the sky (had them since 1970). And the pack looks like angels' wings, and twin plumes/collumns of fire and smoke.

Maybe, Ezekiel saw the future...not aliens, but us, now.

my thoughts

v/r

Q

 

[wil]

Namaste Q, much appreciated... I've contemplated this as well. But Ezekial described it as reality...as G-d. I've been discussing this since I was a kid and it was pointed out to me in jr. high, rabbis, priests, all avoid discussing what it was beyond G-d...we were crazy to say it was the future or aliens...

We'll take other parts of the bible and make up as much story as we wish around it....but trying to identify exactly what went on in such a small passage we wish to set aside.

 

[Quahom1]

Namaste Q, much appreciated... I've contemplated this as well. But Ezekial described it as reality...as G-d. I've been discussing this since I was a kid and it was pointed out to me in jr. high, rabbis, priests, all avoid discussing what it was beyond G-d...we were crazy to say it was the future or aliens...

We'll take other parts of the bible and make up as much story as we wish around it....but trying to identify exactly what went on in such a small passage we wish to set aside.

Agreed. I have no intention of re-writing the Bible. I simply find such similarities...ironic

v/r

Q

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards!

Interesting point, wil. I too, have run into a lot of people who avoid hard questions on many topics in the Bible. This topic especially seems to drive people to the security of their comfort zones.

Q, you brought up some good points too. I am reminded of passages in Revelations speaking of locusts I believe it says, with thundering noise and lions teeth and a few other things that escape me just now (being lazy, its time for bed). Seems I recall one of Nostradamus' more famous quatrains mentioning "pig-faced" men.

 

[Out There]

lol you've all made such far-fetched deductions on what Ezekiel was envisioning about in chapter 1 of his book. From helicopters to aliens of extra-terrastrial origin ! lol....just read the chapter carefully..ya don't really have to look between the lines! He's talking about a god riding some kind of strange transport(gods do not fly with helicopters). Here are two links to interesting expositions on the matter http://www.bibleorigins.net/EzekielsCherubim.html
http://energion.com/rpp/ezekiel1.shtml

 

[Quahom1]

lol you've all made such far-fetched deductions on what Ezekiel was envisioning about in chapter 1 of his book. From helicopters to aliens of extra-terrastrial origin ! lol....just read the chapter carefully..ya don't really have to look between the lines! He's talking about a god riding some kind of strange transport(gods do not fly with helicopters). Here are two links to interesting expositions on the matter http://www.bibleorigins.net/EzekielsCherubim.html
http://energion.com/rpp/ezekiel1.shtml

In the 1490s, Leonardo da Vinci made far fetched deductions and drawings of an airplane, and a helicopter (who's principles are applied today). Both went from far fetched to reality in 1903 and 1946, respectively.

"gods" do not fly helicopters, men do. But several thousand years ago, a vision of men flying helicopters and fighter jets, very well could have been interpreted as "gods" in flying machines. Just like thousands of years ago only "gods" left the earth for the heavens. Today man does it on a regular basis (and it is usually on a plume and collumn of smoke and fire (and unearthly noise).

As I stated, there are interesting similarities.

v/r

Q

 

[Out There]

In the 1490s, Leonardo da Vinci made far fetched deductions and drawings of an airplane, and a helicopter (who's principles are applied today). Both went from far fetched to reality in 1903 and 1946, respectively.

"gods" do not fly helicopters, men do. But several thousand years ago, a vision of men flying helicopters and fighter jets, very well could have been interpreted as "gods" in flying machines. Just like thousands of years ago only "gods" left the earth for the heavens. Today man does it on a regular basis (and it is usually on a plume and collumn of smoke and fire (and unearthly noise).

As I stated, there are interesting similarities.

v/r

Q

We're not talking about Da Vinci here or thousands year old ancient civilisations. We're talking about Ezekiel's vision. Tell me, where in the chapter 1 of his book suggests or imply that he's talking about a helicopter?

By the way, that's the so-called Da Vinci helicopter....could you provide just one type of helicopter in use today that resemble Da Vinci's ? He also invented the parachute, with a pyramid like structure...try using that to land safely after jumping off a high summit, see if you'll survive..Lol.....
lol you're taking several verses out of the context of the whole chapter to suit your own interpretation.....that's your prerogative of course....

 

[wil]

Things that confuse me....

the making of G-d in our image...the need to provide spirit with arms and eyes..and the concept that spirit needs some sort of transportation chariot wheels or space ship to be omnipresent...

the term bible apologist...one that feels they must make up bigger fabrications than those that question what they read, and provide potential understandings (also called fabrications by some)....

While the authors of the links attempted to diminish the writings...these are interesting passages...and to say there is nothing here...confuses me...

 

[Quahom1]

We're not talking about Da Vinci here or thousands year old ancient civilisations. We're talking about Ezekiel's vision. Tell me, where in the chapter 1 of his book suggests or imply that he's talking about a helicopter?

By the way, that's the so-called Da Vinci helicopter....could you provide just one type of helicopter in use today that resemble Da Vinci's ? He also invented the parachute, with a pyramid like structure...try using that to land safely after jumping off a high summit, see if you'll survive..Lol.....
lol you're taking several verses out of the context of the whole chapter to suit your own interpretation.....that's your prerogative of course....

Yes, a children's "whirlygig" is such a type of helicopter in use today that quite resembles da Vinci's concept. And the prinicples he applied are in use on all versions of helicopters today. The parachute catchs air and allows a bit to escape from vented louvers inorder to semi control the rate of decent and direction. A pyramid design has been tested as has the para sail, the inflated chute as well. They all work, but for different purposes and objects to be lowered down to the ground.

You forgot to mention the "tank" drawing and notes above the helicopter concept, as well as the mechanical fish swimming trough the seas with men inside.

I don't see anything taken out of context in relation to the scriptures. People were simply contemplating similarities between the scriptures of old visions and the actual realities of today.

v/r

Q

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Aidyl Nurhadi!

I don't believe we have exchanged views before, welcome to CR!

you've all made such far-fetched deductions on what Ezekiel was envisioning about in chapter 1 of his book. From helicopters to aliens of extra-terrastrial origin !

Is it truly "far-fetched" to see G-d as beyond this earth? Indeed, I would think that the opposite, containing G-d solely to this earth, is to also imply G-d is an invention of humans... Whereas, in seeing G-d as above and beyond this planet, even above and beyond this solar system, galaxy and even universe, is to admit that G-d is extra terrestrial, an "alien" in the modern understanding of the term.

He's talking about a god riding some kind of strange transport(gods do not fly with helicopters).

Well, I think exception can be made to Ezekiel "talking about a god" (lower case). Ezekiel, like all of the Old Testament prophets, spoke endearingly of only one G-d. The only time the Old Testament prophets spoke of gods was in reference, usually against, to foreign idols and objects of devotion by groups other than the Jewish peoples.

The question obviously stands out as to why G-d would require a vehicle, but the simple dismissal of "far-fetched deductions" is a rather trite one, considering the underlying suppositions that drive such thoughts. As for why G-d may require a vehicle, one could as easily ask why G-d needed the Ark of the Covenant to house His presence, or the Holy of Holies for the same purpose? How does one contain the uncontainable? Yet, G-d ordered the construction of the Ark and the Temple...

I do not pretend I have all of the answers. It could well be I am mistaken. However, the question unasked gets the answer it deserves.

I trust in G-d, not man. In the end, it really does not matter.

 

[wil]

Is it truly "far-fetched" to see G-d as beyond this earth? Indeed, I would think that the opposite, containing G-d solely to this earth, is to also imply G-d is an invention of humans... Whereas, in seeing G-d as above and beyond this planet, even above and beyond this solar system, galaxy and even universe, is to admit that G-d is extra terrestrial, an "alien" in the modern understanding of the term.

Reminds me of the Catholic priest who when questioned about what would happen if life on another planet were discovered to be a civilisation more ancient then ours...or specifically if we humans were descendants of another planet, his response.."No one says the garden of eden was here..."

 

[Quahom1]

Reminds me of the Catholic priest who when questioned about what would happen if life on another planet were discovered to be a civilisation more ancient then ours...or specifically if we humans were descendants of another planet, his response.."No one says the garden of eden was here..."

That is so true...(lol)

 

[OzAndy]

Reminds me of the Catholic priest who when questioned about what would happen if life on another planet were discovered to be a civilisation more ancient then ours...or specifically if we humans were descendants of another planet, his response.."No one says the garden of eden was here..."

This topic of what if there are older alien civilization- what does that do to Christianity and other systems of belief?, is one which is at least as old as Science Fiction.

In the first two books of C S Lewis' Science Fantasy trilogy Out of the Silent Planet and Peralandra (aka Voyage to Venus) Lewis's answer is to say that only Earth is fallen, every other Planet is still its own Garden of Eden. Lewis was replying to the racist ideas of the social Darwinists and HG Wells among others.

If there is life out there I hope Lewis is right - It would be frigtening tpo think that there are Aliens roaming the Universe who have stuffed things up as badly as we have!!!

Blessings
Andrew

 

[Quahom1]

This topic of what if there are older alien civilization- what does that do to Christianity and other systems of belief?, is one which is at least as old as Science Fiction.

In the first two books of C S Lewis' Science Fantasy trilogy Out of the Silent Planet and Peralandra (aka Voyage to Venus) Lewis's answer is to say that only Earth is fallen, every other Planet is still its own Garden of Eden. Lewis was replying to the racist ideas of the social Darwinists and HG Wells among others.

If there is life out there I hope Lewis is right - It would be frigtening tpo think that there are Aliens roaming the Universe who have stuffed things up as badly as we have!!!

Blessings
Andrew

Hey OZ,

There is a passage (can't give specifics), wherein Jesus states there are other "sheep" of his fold that He must tend to, or bring in, or something to that affect. The jist is that there are others, the listeners at the time were not familiar with. I don't think much has been explored on just who those "others" of the fold were/are.

v/r

Q