did bahai prophets receive divine revelations?
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paul
recovering sinner
what does the bahia faith teach happens to the spirit after physical death?
and does it teach that heaven is only a state we live in when we are living physically?
and does it teach that heaven is only a state we live in when we are living physically?
BruceDLimber
Baha'i
paul said:
From the Baha'i scriptures:
"And now concerning thy question regarding the soul of man and its survival after death. Know thou of a truth that the soul, after its separation from the body, will continue to progress until it attaineth the presence of God, in a state and condition which neither the revolution of ages and centuries, nor the changes and chances of this world, can alter. It will endure as long as the Kingdom of God, His sovereignty, His dominion and power will endure. It will manifest the signs of God and His attributes, and will reveal His loving-kindness and bounty. The movement of My Pen is stilled when it attempteth to befittingly describe the loftiness and glory of so exalted a station. The honor with which the Hand of Mercy will invest the soul is such as no tongue can adequately reveal, nor any other earthly agency describe. Blessed is the soul which, at the hour of its separation from the body, is sanctified from the vain imaginings of the peoples of the world. Such a soul liveth and moveth in accordance with the Will of its Creator, and entereth the all-highest Paradise."
(Baha'u'llah: Gleanings, pages 155-156)
paul said:
Definitely not!
Heaven and hell are the spiritual states of nearness to/separation from God, not places.
As such, they exist here and now as well as after death, and every one of us is in one or the other right now, as a function of where our heads are at!
Do keep the questions coming; we LOVE 'em!
Best,
Bruce
smkolins
Bahá'í
9Harmony said:
And, I would add, is a position that resolves the conflict between Christianity and Islam on what happened to Jesus - on the one hand He was indeed crucified and died on the cross, and at the same time, His Spirit was untouched and His suffering was only the part seen by most people though to God's eyes He was in safety.
imranshaykh
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BruceDLimber said:
This view point about the cruxifiction of Christ and his burial is contrary to the viewpoint expressed in the Quran. Islam is also clear about the return of Christ in person and not in spirit.
So is the concept of resurrection - Islam categorically says that it is physical in nature, while The Bahai Faith says that it is spiritual.
Regards
Imran
imranshaykh
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BruceDLimber said:
Is'nt this contrary to what Mohammed believed in and taught us through the Quran and his explanations in traditions? Given that Heaven and Hell were not seen by men, the Holy Prophet painstakingly explained the various stages of both Heaven and Hell.
How does one reconcile the beliefs of Islam and the Bahai Faith regarding Heaven and Hell?
I mean, the verses of the Quran say that Hell is a poor place to be in, where people will be forced to consume terrible drinks, their skins will be burnt...etc. And yes, it is a place for sinners. The traditions explaning these verses are even more graphic. There is no mention or even a hint of a spiritual fire or drink or stages.
I mean what is meant by distance from God in the context of what has been spoken to in the Quran?
Regards
Imran Shaykh
BruceDLimber
Baha'i
imranshaykh said:
This is simply part of the larger truth that earlier religions explain things in ways comprehensible to the people at that time (and their level of understanding then), and that later religions restate the same truths using a larger vocabulary and more sophisticated terms....
And we Baha'is see no contradiction whatever between the Biblical and Qur'anic versions of the story of Christ because the Gospels state the fact that Jesus did indeed die on the cross, while the Qur'an (as was explained by someone else already) is speaking of the attempt to stamp out Christ's teachings and Christianity, and of the fact that this attempt failed utterly!
Peace,
Bruce
imranshaykh
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BruceDLimber said:
I agree with you that each successive prophet taught the same thing - unity of God, rsurrection, good and evil in the same way as per the needs and understanding of his people.
However this is not true of Islam and Bahaism. Take the concept of resurrection. It is so detailed in Islam, extremely graphic. However in Bahaism you find a diluted form, almost irrelevant. So you not just have a total divergence of views, but also a diluting effect.
Or take the example of the cruxifiction of Jesus. The views are tangential to each other. Islam says that Jesus never dies and that he will return physically as Jesus and not as some other person. Bahais say that Jesus died and he returned as Bahaullah. How does one reconcile the views?
how can one then accept that Mohammed and Bahaullah came from the same God and that they taught the same thing? In fact there seems to be no unity in Islam and Bahaism at all. We could take the example of resurrection for it is so clearly divergent.
Regards
Imran
imranshaykh said:
Hi Imran,
nice to meet you.
actually Baha'i's have no problem reconciling these views. These apparently divergent views are only divergent if we adhere to a strictly literal understanding of the scriptures in question. But if we can read them in a spiritual light, then all of the contradictions melt away effortlessly.
imho.
have a wonderful day!
-Amy
imranshaykh
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9Harmony said:Hi Imran,
nice to meet you.
actually Baha'i's have no problem reconciling these views. These apparently divergent views are only divergent if we adhere to a strictly literal understanding of the scriptures in question. But if we can read them in a spiritual light, then all of the contradictions melt away effortlessly.
imho.
have a wonderful day!
-Amy
Dear Amy:
Are our scriptures so fluid that we interpret them in a spiritual and literal manner as we should deem fit? I dont think so. The Holy Prophet (saw) never advised us to interpret the Quran on our own - in fact he condemned it.
Your understanding of spirituality will be so different than mine. Here I am not even raising the issue of who is right and who wring Its just that our exposures, cultures, understanding is so different, that our interpretations, taken "spiritually" will vary as well. So your understanding of the Day of Judegment will be so different from mine. Even if it is no fault of your or mine.
That is why Islam orders that the understanding of the Quran should be through the words of the Prophet upon whom it was revealed. How would the Bahais feel if each took the words of Bahaullah and interpreted them in our own way? Besides, this is an extremely convenient way to interpret texts as one wants.
Regards
Imran
imranshaykh said:
Hi Imran,
Of course you are correct. We are not capable of deciphering the Scriptures on our own. That is why we should always remain open-minded. In the Bible it states that the books will be sealed til the time of the end. imho, this means that no matter what we think we understand concerning the meanings of the Holy Books, we will just be grasping at straws, but when Christ returns, He will unseal them, and make clear the meanings hidden therein. This is where our understanding comes from, Baha'i's believe that Baha'u'llah is Christ returned, and that He has unsealed the meanings and clarified those things which have caused disputes in the past. Our understanding is not our own, but that which was revealed to us through Baha'u'llah's own words. And a thorough investigation of Baha'u'llah's life, character and teachings is warranted to determine for yourself whether or not He is who He said He was.
"Weigh not the Book of God with such standards and sciences as are current amongst you, for the Book itself is the unerring Balance established amongst men. In this most perfect Balance whatsoever the peoples and kindreds possess must be weighed, while the measure of its weight should be tested according to its own standard, did ye but know it." -The Kitab-i-Aqdas, Pages 49-63: gr99
In my mind, Baha'u'llah has been able to rectify all of the divergent thoughts and guided me to seeing them in a new light, a light which unites all peoples of all religions. Yet, this is only possible when we allow ourselves to detach from what we think we know. We must be open to allowing the spirit to guide us in our quest. Then things begin to fit together almost effortlessly. (imho). And we realize how unnecessary these arguments really are. Because we are all on the same path, just coming at it from different directions, so our vision from our personal vantage points will vary.
Have a great day!
-Amy
lunamoth
Episcopalian
9Harmony said:
Hi Amy, forgive me if you think it is overstepping bounds to ask this question here, but this is where my question makes sense.
Why is it OK, make that imperative, for Christians and Muslims to ignore what tradition and authority say about interpreting scripture, yet it is equally imperative that Baha'is not question their own tradition and authority? Do you see the double-standard at work here?
Laurie
imranshaykh
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lunamoth said:
Laurie, thank you for raising an objective point.
I would like to take it a bit further - When Mohammed is considered as a dispensation for the people, then why are all his traditions being ignored and no study being undertaken as to what he actually said about the verses.
Bahaullah is considered as the return of Jesus. Did Mohammed say that jesus would return in spiritual form or are there traditions to indicate that Jesus would return as Jesus? An objective study will show that the prophet indicated that jesus would return himself at the end of time - as jesus and not as Bahaullah. How does one reconcile this Islamic belief with the Bahai belief.
Secondly, while I agree that we are not capable of interpreting the verses, why is it that we want to refer to Bahaullah for interpreting the Quran when Islam has a rich culture of traditions from the prophet about each and every verse of the Quran. And one needs to study the traditions to see how painstakingly, the Prophet has explained the verses - in most instances - word by word. is one expected to ignore all these in favour of the words of Bahaullah? I would think not, expecially given the Bahai premise that both Mohammed and Bahaullah came from the same God and from the same source. Why are their words so diametrically opposite to each other.
Regards
Imran Shaykh
lunamoth said:
Hi Laurie,
no, you are not overstepping the bounds. imho.
i believe that everyone of us should question our own understanding, and compare and relate all of these things together. Afterall mankinds understandings of things are constantly evolving, otherwise we would never make any progress. We learn more and more as time goes by.
Baha'i's are free to question the authority in our Faith, through proper channels. i think it is up to each individual to investigate for ourselves, we can look to those in authority and ask for guidance, but we are ultimately responsible for ourselves, if we accept what others tell us blindly without understanding why, we are doing ourselves a disservice .
I am not telling anyone how to view their own scriptures, only giving my own view of how i approach them and why i approach them the way i do. you are entirely free to disregard my thoughts.
i wholeheartedly support an individual initiative to study their own scriptures. I think where it gets hazy is when we accept what human beings ascribe to those scriptures as part of the scriptures themselves. Tradition is only useful if it truly corresponds with the original teachings and we cannot know that unless we look to the teachings of the Prophets themselves.
does that help? or did i muddy the waters even more.
Have a great day!
-Amy
imranshaykh said:
Dear Imran,
Actually Baha'i's are encouraged to study Islam and Mohammed and His teachings so that we have a better understanding of our own faith.
In regards to Jesus returning as Himself...what would it matter? None of us would recognize Him, unless you happen to be over 2000 years old.
As to referring to the Words of Baha'u'llah for answers...this is only enjoined on those of us who have accepted Baha'u'llah, you are free to completely disregard His words if you so choose. But since I personally believe that He has brought us teachings necessary for this day, I personally choose to refer to His writings. But that is my choice. I do not and cannot expect anyone else to agree with me unless they have also arrived at the same conclusion.
The reason why we place our focus towards Baha'u'llah's teachings instead of Mohammed's or Jesus' is basically, because we believe that each one of these messengers brought a specific message for a specific time. They are like teachers in the school of humanity. if we are trying to learn trigonometry we do not ask our general math teacher to get the most accurate information available on the subject. We would ask the trigonometry teacher wouldn't we? for example lets say Jesus taught General Math, which is a prerequisite before going onto Geometry or Algebra. It is necessary that we understand Basic math principles before we are able to learn more difficult concepts. Mohammed taught Geometry/Algebra which is a prerequisite before taking Trig. Baha'i's believe Baha'u'llah is the Trig teacher in this scenario. But as i said, we do not require that you agree, your spiritual path is your own, and is just as valid as anyone elses.
imho each person who fully lives according to the teachings of the Messenger they follow is more closely aligned with God, than that person who only pays lipservice to their Faith, yet whose actions contradict their words. I think both you and Laurie are wonderful representatives of your respective Faiths.
Have a wonderful weekend!
-Amy
BruceDLimber
Baha'i
imranshaykh said:
Hi again!
For the record, I agree with the responses Amy has given.
As to why why we tend to ignore Islamic traditions (except those specifically quoted by our Central Figures), the reason is very simple!
Because even Muslims themselves can't agree on which traditions (Hadith) are and aren't valid!
So because we have available the full--and completely reliable--texts of the Baha'i scriptures, it makes eminent sense to rely upon these instead of the clearly questionable (if not downright unreliable) traditions of another Faith....
Simple as that.
Peace,
Bruce
smkolins
Bahá'í
lunamoth said:
There is no religion that does not make some amendment to the understanding of the religions which come before it. Christian understandings are not in keeping with Judaic understandings of the Old Testament (a term not even Jewish) and Moslem teachings of Jesus' Message and on down the line - the same thing happens in Hinduism and Buddhism and Zoroastrianism and so on - each makes corrective adjustments to the understandings of the orthodoxy and the faithful about what they thought the truth was according, by each One's testimony, to the Will of God/Truth/It. The reason such must happen is because individual unguided opinion comes to stand in the way of the truth, however endorsed by the administrative order of the religion of God in it's day or accepted as the common understanding among the faithful. At some point (or even a gray scale over time) the adminstrative order makes choices it need not make and God meedles in our error.
In this sense it is not simply the human urge to seek the truth for oneself that is the essential force driving the edge of the sword. It is the choice of God. In that sense it is a profoundly disrupting process for a Prophet to come with a new Revelation. It raises questions the generality of humanity has not been able to do well. It may in fact proceed exactly along the lines of what humanity may need to advance. But it is painful to go through - no Prophet has sought it out, and some have wished the cup pass from their lips. Having a certain humility about the process on our part is called for.
Now it is right and proper for individuals to seek to know for themselves. Science is another avenue this takes place in. But the responsibility of an ongoing civilization goes with that urge to know. Nor is it an easy alliance - some of those who sought the atomic bomb when Hitler was pursuing it were very much against it's use in Japan. Creating order and progress are tall tall orders and not so easy to invent let alone perpetuate - this is why we raise the stories of the Founders of whatever paradigm we live within whether governmental, familial or in some hobby or religion. Some may philosophise of living entirely within one's own understanding but such is a terrible condition and consequences of failure dire - again Hitler comes to mind. Mankind used to wrestle with governments of which the people had no access nor expectation. We have progressed - but I don't think we can reach the point where we need live without laws others have written up. Parents instil, in almost a tyranical way - whether in Machiavellian manipulation or law-giver announcements and punishments, or even in authoritative ways, civilizing behaviors and attitudes. But children do not have an equal say. This is not to say that adults are children. But not all adults have equal responsibility about advancing the state of civilization and simple rebellion may not be good enough - not without a balancing sence of responsability including taking the repercussions of our choices. Again, Prophets were strung up, burned alive, cast into pits... or even had Their own words used against holy and chaste individuals, or even entirely forgotten.
But it is key to this age, of broadening awareness, that everything be questioned. But in part this is to learn the value of the responsability of the answer, as well as the question. We may be free to reject the answer - that does not free us from the repercussions.
With all this in mind it is infact essential that a Baha'i question the tradition and authority of its institutions. And live with the answer - exactly as Christians and Jews and Moslems and etc. should.
lunamoth
Episcopalian
Hi Steven, it's good to see you posting again. I hope all is well with you and your family. Going to go for another adoption any time soon?
Laurie
Laurie
smkolins
Bahá'í
lunamoth said:
We're pretty well. My girl is talking up a storm and climbing cribs.... We're fairly broke for now so another adoption isn't on the horizon, at least worth planning on. The website has plenty of pictures!
imranshaykh
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9Harmony said:Dear Imran,
Actually Baha'i's are encouraged to study Islam and Mohammed and His teachings so that we have a better understanding of our own faith.
In regards to Jesus returning as Himself...what would it matter? None of us would recognize Him, unless you happen to be over 2000 years old.
As to referring to the Words of Baha'u'llah for answers...this is only enjoined on those of us who have accepted Baha'u'llah, you are free to completely disregard His words if you so choose. But since I personally believe that He has brought us teachings necessary for this day, I personally choose to refer to His writings. But that is my choice. I do not and cannot expect anyone else to agree with me unless they have also arrived at the same conclusion.
The reason why we place our focus towards Baha'u'llah's teachings instead of Mohammed's or Jesus' is basically, because we believe that each one of these messengers brought a specific message for a specific time. They are like teachers in the school of humanity. if we are trying to learn trigonometry we do not ask our general math teacher to get the most accurate information available on the subject. We would ask the trigonometry teacher wouldn't we? for example lets say Jesus taught General Math, which is a prerequisite before going onto Geometry or Algebra. It is necessary that we understand Basic math principles before we are able to learn more difficult concepts. Mohammed taught Geometry/Algebra which is a prerequisite before taking Trig. Baha'i's believe Baha'u'llah is the Trig teacher in this scenario. But as i said, we do not require that you agree, your spiritual path is your own, and is just as valid as anyone elses.
imho each person who fully lives according to the teachings of the Messenger they follow is more closely aligned with God, than that person who only pays lipservice to their Faith, yet whose actions contradict their words. I think both you and Laurie are wonderful representatives of your respective Faiths.
Have a wonderful weekend!
-Amy
well said, Faith is indeed a wonderful thing!
Having said that, Faith, because it is Faith in God ultimately, should be from God itself and not based on one's personal interpretation of it.
Regards
Imran Shaykh
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