flood

In addition to the Genesis account, there are many references to Noah or the Deluge in the Bible. For example:
(1) The researcher Ezra included Noah and his sons (Shem, Ham, and Japheth) in the genealogy of the nation of Israel.—1 Chronicles 1:4-17.
(2) The physician and Gospel writer Luke includes Noah when listing the ancestors of Jesus Christ.—Luke 3:36.
(3) The apostle Peter draws heavily on the Flood account in writing to fellow Christians.—2 Peter 2:5; 3:5, 6.
(4) The apostle Paul speaks of the great faith that Noah displayed in constructing the ark for the survival of his household.—Hebrews 11:7.​
Can there be any doubt that these inspired Bible writers accepted the Genesis account of the Flood? They unquestionably considered it to be a true event
 
The trouble with an argument for a single global flooding event is that I don;t believe there's any geological evidence that suggests a single global event as literally described in genesis.

While flood myths are common, it's not difficult to suggest that these are primarily based on local flood event - humanity has usually aimed to settle near watercourses - and that rarely, these water courses will flood catastrophically.

2c.

As for the pointer on evangelism - we don't discourage people to express enthusiasm for their faith - what we try and discourage is proselytising, as in a more direct attempt to convert third-parties to convert to a particular viewpoint. Hope that helps. :)


ADDED:

Truthseeker said:
Isn't this promoting Watchtower propaganda? Sort of like preaching the Good News of Jehovah's Kingdom on CR without invitation through means of discussion?

We did have a staff discussion about this - as the article in the original post is somewhat generic, and doesn't appear to have a call to action to convert from any other denomination, it seemed acceptable.
 
Kindest Regards, all!

Here's a couple of little tidbits concerning the Flood of Noah:

The whole problem with the Mesopotamian Flood concept is that the water required to pick the ark up and place it on the lower levels of any mountain in the Ararat region, is far above that which can be contained by the natural basin. In the east west direction, if the water level rises above 2000 feet it will spill over into the Mediterranean. The water level in the Tigris/Euphrates valley can get no higher than 2000 feet on the west. In other words, the entire world must be filled with water up to a 9500 foot level in order for the Ark to be placed on Ararat.

However the real problem lies to the south. There is nothing to the south which can hold the water and allow it to rise above sea level. The Tigris/Euphrates valley is a half-bowl. A great illustration of the problem would be to cut a breakfast cereal bowl in half and try to fill half the bowl with water. Obviously you can pour water into the half-bowl from now to the end of the universe and the half bowl will never fill up.
http://home.entouch.net/dmd/mflood.htm

Glen Morton is a Bible believing Christian, and at the same time he is employed as a geologist. He has done a great deal of research pertaining to issues surrounding the Genesis story. He has written plenty more, and other scholars have looked over his materials. Not to say there is not some disagreement, but this guy is pretty darn thorough in his research.

Here is a link to more of his work:

http://home.entouch.net/dmd/dmd.htm#flo

Enjoy! :)
 
juantoo3 said:
Kindest Regards, all!

Here's a couple of little tidbits concerning the Flood of Noah:


http://home.entouch.net/dmd/mflood.htm

Glen Morton is a Bible believing Christian, and at the same time he is employed as a geologist. He has done a great deal of research pertaining to issues surrounding the Genesis story. He has written plenty more, and other scholars have looked over his materials. Not to say there is not some disagreement, but this guy is pretty darn thorough in his research.

Here is a link to more of his work:

http://home.entouch.net/dmd/dmd.htm#flo

Enjoy! :)

Wow, that's an interesting site Juan! I'm going to have to peruse it some more. Thanks!

Chris
 
The Deluge did not come suddenly without warning. Years of time were spent building the ark, time that Noah the "preacher of righteousness" also used in warning that wicked generation. (2Pe 2:5)
 
In light of the sudden orthodox Christian announcements that the Bible may not be TOTALLY literal, and the lack of scientific evidence that should be there, a world wide flood may or may not have occured. It is bothering me as well, I assure you.
Any links or quotes to 'sudden orthodox Christian announcements'?

It is my understanding that it isn't suddent, that in the schools of higher learning, in masters and doctoral level theology/divinity classes the allegory and metaphor is taught...in a variety of denominations including Jesuit and Catholic. That it has been witheld from the masses because we weren't ready....maybe there is some truth in that.
 
The Episcopal Church has been at peace with the compatibility of science and religion, including the reasonableness of the ToE, for as long as I can remember. I'm surprised at the surprise of others that this is and has been the case.

2 c,
luna
 
Hi folks,

after looking at the links kindly provided by Juantoo a few posts past it seems my own 'flood story' was improbable. Though I must admit that I find some of the quoted facts counter-intuitive, (ie how could the black sea flow toward the med when it was 400 meters lower than present). None the less I never presented it as fact. I remain of the opinion that a simple flood event is behind the myth but doubt whether there will ever be certainty as to where or when.

david
 
Tao_Equus said:
Hi folks,

after looking at the links kindly provided by Juantoo a few posts past it seems my own 'flood story' was improbable. Though I must admit that I find some of the quoted facts counter-intuitive, (ie how could the black sea flow toward the med when it was 400 meters lower than present). None the less I never presented it as fact. I remain of the opinion that a simple flood event is behind the myth but doubt whether there will ever be certainty as to where or when.

david

Yet, every (nearly every) people on earth speak of the same thing in history (a great flood). Science and historical "myth" conflict, and it isn't just one religion...

So, does that mean that science trumps every mythological story (especially when they are more or less the same)? I think not. Science missed something. And any scientist who scoffs at all religous beliefs of the same catastrophic event, are being shall we say...foolish?

v/r

Q
 
Quahom1 said:
Yet, every (nearly every) people on earth speak of the same thing in history (a great flood). Science and historical "myth" conflict, and it isn't just one religion...

So, does that mean that science trumps every mythological story (especially when they are more or less the same)? I think not. Science missed something. And any scientist who scoffs at all religous beliefs of the same catastrophic event, are being shall we say...foolish?

v/r

Q
I agree with you Q. All of these conversations have prompted me to review Karen Armstrong's The Battle for God, in which she makes some very astute observations about the role of the Enlightenment and scientific thought in the 'death' of mythos, the sacred reading of scripture. Science (logos) does not trump mythos unless we invite it to do so.

..."But the large numbers of people who read this book (Force and Matter by Ludwig Buchner) and flocked to Haeckel's lectures showed that in Europe a significant number of people wanted to ehar that science had disproved religion once and for all.
This was because by treating religious truths as though they were rational logos, modern scientists, sritics, and philosophers had made them incredible. In 1882, Friedrich Nietzsche would proclaim that God was dead.....In an important sense, Nietzsche was right. Without myth, cult, ritual, and prayer, the sense of the sacred inevitabley dies. By making 'God' a wholly notional truth, struggling to readh teh divine by intellect alone, as some modern believers had attempted to do, modern men and women had killed it for themselves. The whole dynamic of their future-oriented culture had made the traditional ways of apprehending the sacred psychologically impossible. Like the Jewish Marrano before them, who had themselved been thrust, for very different reasons, into a religious limbo, many modern men and women were experiencing the truths of religion as tenuous, arbitrary, and incomprehensible."
 
1 Peter 3:18-20 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
 
If we grant that a great flood could have happened, why have scientists found no trace of it? Perhaps they have, but they interpret the evidence some other way. For example, orthodox science teaches that the surface of the earth has been shaped in many places by powerful glaciers during a series of ice ages. But apparent evidence of glacial activity can sometimes be the result of water action. Very likely, then, some of the evidence for the Flood is being misread as evidence of an ice age.
 
Kindest Regards, mee!

If we grant that a great flood could have happened, why have scientists found no trace of it? Perhaps they have, but they interpret the evidence some other way. For example, orthodox science teaches that the surface of the earth has been shaped in many places by powerful glaciers during a series of ice ages. But apparent evidence of glacial activity can sometimes be the result of water action. Very likely, then, some of the evidence for the Flood is being misread as evidence of an ice age.
Perhaps, some of the evidence is being (has been) misinterpreted, but it is kinda hard to dismiss frozen mammoths in Siberia, still with buttercups in their mouths, the flesh still eatable by dogs with no ill effect. Mammoths haven't been around for what? about 10 thousand years? There were glaciers, that much cannot be denied, some still exist (and are quickly eroding, bringing concerns of "global warming"). So while some evidence may indeed be being misinterpreted, clearly not all of it is. Ockham's razor suggests that glaciation is the more likely cause of these "evidences."

Was there a Noah, and did he and his charges endure a flood? I think there is a great likelihood, considering the great extent of flood myths around the world in various cultures. Was that flood truly global in the sense we deem today? I seriously question that. I am more inclined towards what Q pointed to, the flood of Noah covered "the world" that Noah knew.
 
juantoo3 said:
I am more inclined towards what Q pointed to, the flood of Noah covered "the world" that Noah knew.
When we see floods of today...with planes and helicopters flying over flooded land for miles...it is no wonder that in any major flood one would assume the whole world innundated. And can't you picture the waters receding and the bird finding the branch popping up above the water...
 
In New England it rained over the weekend two days straight. During that two days NE received over 17 inches of rain. Haven't had a rain like that in over 50 years. Because NE is a plateau (of sorts), the run off was fairly quick, yet still hundreds of thousands of basements and cellars were flooded, as were streets and rivers.

Where I live we are at an elevation of 300 feet. And our river dumps directly into the Potomac, yet when we get three inches of rain (or more accurately when North Maryland and Southern Pennsylvania) get three inches of rain, I know to move our land vehicles to high ground and break out the john boat and motor, cause we're going to see the river five feet from our front door, instead of 50 yards away. My drive will have 10 feet of water over it. The Monocacy goes from 50 yards wide, to the width of the Detroit river (over a mile wide), in about 12 hours, and stays that way for 48 hours.

Now imagine if it rained in an area for 40 days and 40 nights at the rate of one inch per hour.

There is estimated 326 million Trillion gallons of water on earth at any given time.

Now let us consider: 98% of the earth's water is in the oceans. It's already there in its water bed. That leaves 2% unaccounted for. We lose a tiny bit of water every day through the upper atmospher (ultra-violet light breaks down water molecules), but gain new water through deep earth volcanic activity. So the loss and replenishment of earth's water remain roughly the same.

If the earth gave up all of its water (from the ground, the ice caps, the glaciers, and the atmosphere) today, The world wide sea level would rise between 220-300 feet. This is substantial, but not earth land threatening.

Baltimore, Washington DC, Seattle, New York City, Los Angeles, etc., would be underwater, but the the Smokies and the Appalachea uplands would simply be beach front property. The Mississippi river would become the Mississippi inland sea, effectively splitting the US into two land masses, But most of the Northern US and Canada would remain intact.

If as some opine, the Atmosphere was twice as dense during the alleged time of Noah's flood, then the sea level (after the rain of all H2O), could only rise an additional 100 feet. (now 500 feet over the surface of the earth). Still, Michigan (at 625 feet above sea level), would be safe. And still the mean elevation of the United States would not have been breached. (2500 feet)

If as a few opine, the atmosphere was at three times as dense during the alleged time of Noah's flood (besides nearly being able to breathe in water), man would have been under three atmospheres of pressure (or 45 LBS per square inch), living in desserts would have been impossible for man (his lungs would dry up like prunes), rain would have been a daily event throughout the world (the atmosphere can not hold that much water in suspension), negating the possibility of desserts to begin with.

And the sea level would only rise an additional 100 feet world wide.

Now, the only remote possiblity for the entire earth to be covered with water, would be if the tectonic plates settled for 40 days and 40 nights, by over 20,000 feet. In short all volcanic activity would have to cease, the mantle would have to cool and contract (earth would have to get smaller by 1000 miles in diameter), all within 40 days...that would have also caused a global ice age.

Can God do that? Sure, but we would see the evidence of that activity. Remember, most Flood stories go back 4000 - 6000 years ago. That would result in obviously fresh scars all over the place.

Of course, that would mean (if plausible), that man was much denser in build then, as opposed to now, gravity would have been greater (by 20%), and man would have been much stronger. the women would have made our current musclemen look like wimps. It would also mean that the Arc would have had to double as an hyperbolic chamber, allowing man and animal to adjust to the new world (lesser atmosphere, less density, less gravitaional pull).

Things to consider.

v/r

Q
 
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