Creationism Is Paganism, says Vatican Astronomer

seattlegal said:
Smileys come in handy when you're pointing a realistic-looking water gun at someone.;)

I was trying for a deadpan delivery, but it's so hard to get the nuance in just words. Maybe if there was a Groucho Marx emoticon...I'll keep working on it.

Chris
 
AletheiaRivers said:
In the past JW's believed RC was Babylon the Great. I don't know if they believed RC was the anti-Christ.

On the record - I'm seriously considering converting to Catholicism. I'm torn. I'm also interested in the Episcopal church. It will be one or the other. I felt I had to say that, in the event that my comment above seemed anti-Catholic in any way (although I don't see how, and don't know why it inspired CC to react the way he did). :)

What attracts you to a more traditional religious structure, if I may be so bold as to ask? Is it the ritual? I'm just curious since you were a JW. What attracted you to the Witnesses, and how has your personal evolution brought you to the point where you're on the verge of embracing what might be considered the anathema of your previous position?

Chris
 
wil said:
That was the thinking during canonization, that was the thinking of Paul establishing churches. That was the thinking of the authors and editors of the bible.. we gotta mix some of the pagan stories in here, keep it all within the realm of acceptablity.

And today it appears true as well....we are not ready.

It's the gatekeeper mentality: Gotta protect the ignorant for their own good.

I think that the RCC got itself into a bind with the papal infallability thing, and the Vatican is slowly, slowly digging out. The Catholic Church is a huge global enterprise. They have to take into account the needs and superstition level of people in the first as well as the third world.

Chris
 
Prober said:
I was taught the same way. I must point out that, in all cases, God hates the sin and loves the sinner.
Yeah, but he's gonna have to fry the sinner to get to the sin, so that's small comfort."

So, do you think that Catholics are going to heaven?

Chris
 
China Cat Sunflower said:
What attracts you to a more traditional religious structure, if I may be so bold as to ask? Is it the ritual? I'm just curious since you were a JW. What attracted you to the Witnesses, and how has your personal evolution brought you to the point where you're on the verge of embracing what might be considered the anathema of your previous position?

Chris

I'm attracted to Traditional Christianity for many reasons. Ritual is a big part. I appreciate the focus on mystery and mysticism, the importance of religious experience.

I was attracted to the Witnesses for the reason any person is attracted to any very conservative (fundamentalist) denomination: they claim to have The Truth. The Bible is looked at as having been dictated to the writers by God, like an executive dictates to a secretary. The Bible is considered to be inerrant and infallable and mostly lliteral. Like Lindsay or LeHaye, they use the Bible to predict the end times. It offered assurity and security.
 
AletheiaRivers said:
I'm attracted to Traditional Christianity for many reasons. Ritual is a big part. I appreciate the focus on mystery and mysticism, the importance of religious experience.

I was attracted to the Witnesses for the reason any person is attracted to any very conservative (fundamentalist) denomination: they claim to have The Truth. The Bible is looked at as having been dictated to the writers by God, like an executive dictates to a secretary. The Bible is considered to be inerrant and infallable and mostly lliteral. Like Lindsay or LeHaye, they use the Bible to predict the end times. It offered assurity and security.
Right on! Have you delved into the western hermetic traditon at all? I have this vague memory of you saying something related to that, but I don't recall for sure.

I joined a Pentecostal church for a while when I was going through a rough patch in my life. It was cool! It relieved me of control over my mind and immediate destiny, the people were awsome, they had a thumpin' band in church which was something I'd never experienced coming from such a staid religious upbringing, and the potlucks were fantastic! It worked for as long as I needed it to, and then a transitioned out. I don't know what they thought of the Catholics, but they did seem to have a kind of rivalry thing with the Southern Baptists!:)

Chris
 
wil said:
To start, I've never understood the anti-catholic or anti-semitism, or racism, or whateverisms... Mostly because I wasn't raised that way, and didn't exist in a mono-anything vacuum I think. I still don't know all the history which leaves such hatred or predjudices amongst people. The funny thing is I wear my hair long....but at times see people with long hair and have prejudicial notions about their politics and work ethic....bad very bad...hopefully I'll grow.

As I see it there are different levels of understanding in most churhes. In sunday school, the youngins are taught the basics...just like any book you pick up Rebecca of Sunnybrook Farms say...their is a picture book version, an elementary school version, a middle school version...and the unabridged...and then somewhere along the line, maybe you'll get into the history of the writer, the time period it was written, the nuances of the society at the time, and the society being written about....and maybe some undercurrent of thought that isn't specifically in the writings but intimated to.

We go through the bible the same way...and if perchance one would make it with open eyes to reading about all the authors and editors of the bible, the history of its actual creation as a collection of stories...the judaic and then later christian cannonization of same. And somewhere along the line you have a teacher teaching masters and/or doctoral level at a Catholic or Jesuit or most any religous university saying..."don't tell me you think this actually happened...this is metaphor"...and over half the class goes into shock... I've heard this over the years from so many... and the answer is always the same... the masses aren't ready for this information.

That was the thinking during canonization, that was the thinking of Paul establishing churches. That was the thinking of the authors and editors of the bible.. we gotta mix some of the pagan stories in here, keep it all within the realm of acceptablity.

And today it appears true as well....we are not ready.

And how else could it be? Everybody has to learn to walk before they run. You dont jump into the physics of superfluids before you learn to count. In everything there is a metaphorical mountain and to get to the top takes many steps And in many areas the lifespan of a man does not permit the individual to ever reach the top. Well done Wil for so adroitly expressing this.

Perhaps in the great and unfortunately unaccesable libraries of the Vatican they have the information that would allow debate on the origins of the bible to be much more lucid. One of the reasons I am personaly repelled by organised religions is that most seek to stifle genuine questions as to the authenticity and origin of both scriptures and the intent of the establishments hierarchy in doing this. To me all to often organised religions are less about The Truth and more about keeping a rather 'profitable' flock.

The Papal supremacy perhaps has had the most notable history of stifling free thinking and victimising those that question. Recently however it has come to see that its good for it to appeal to the more inteligent, well educated and, lets be honest - affluent members of the population. Potential convertees that are repelled by the idiotic doctrines of the far right and the petty squabbling of the confusing plethora of other denomenations can find a home in the new simple, rational catholic church.
So in that sense its politics....and marketing of course.

2c's

David
 
Tao_Equus said:
And how else could it be? Everybody has to learn to walk before they run. You dont jump into the physics of superfluids before you learn to count.
And why not? I think of how much was learned in the one room schoolhouses because the kids learning to count and write their alphabet while trying to scratch the characters on their slate were overhearing the teacher teach the older kids to calculate interest and determine the yeild of a field of wheat or listening to them read the classics out loud to the rest of the class.

Over their heads...maybe, maybe not...but definitely sinking into their conscious and by the first time they were given the book to read they'd heard those words a hundred, a thousand times, they'd heard others stumble and be corrected and question...they may not understand the question or the discussion, but it embedded n their psyche. When the teacher first told them they were going to learn division...they'd seen it being taught to the older kids for years.

When my kids asked why the sky was blue at 3 years old...I got out a prism and we shined it on the wall. By the time my kids were in Kindergarten when one would (twins) ask a question the other would say.."No, don't ask, we are going to get a lecture....oh darn" For a couple years..they fought, "why Dad, why do you have to tell us the history of everything...can't you just answer the question?!?!?" (where's the interrobang?!)

Then by third grade they were back to wanting to know everything..more than I knew forcing us to discuss and contemplate and learn more together.

I think if we allowed children to be around the physics of superfluids before they understood it, if we taught them the kingdom of heaven was in thier midst, and never indoctrinated them with the anthropormphic G-d made in man's image...oh what they would teach us!
 
gotta love synchronicity (just another variation of grace?), I left this thread to read an email which had a link to a quote which read...

"you'll never harvest corn if you plant potatoes'

why do we plant potatoes in our minds and the minds of our youth and expect different results?
 
I agree with that also 100% , you dont become a better chess player playing weaker opponents.

David
 
wil said:
gotta love synchronicity (just another variation of grace?), I left this thread to read an email which had a link to a quote which read...

"you'll never harvest corn if you plant potatoes'

why do we plant potatoes in our minds and the minds of our youth and expect different results?
Well, if you keep doing the same thing over and over again, and expect results different then the ones you have already experienced, isn't that just paving the way towards insanity?
 
Wow I missed a good one staying away for a bit.

I want to find out if any of our fundamentalist friends here are willing to be up front about what their church teaches vis a vis the RCC.
I Guess I fall in this category...well my Church doesnt teach about other churches..they teach the bible. Maybe some more need to teach the bible and quit worrying about what the others are doing.

I was attracted to the Witnesses for the reason any person is attracted to any very conservative (fundamentalist) denomination
Thats weird cause most fundamentalists consider them a cult.
 
China Cat Sunflower said:
Yeah, but he's gonna have to fry the sinner to get to the sin, so that's small comfort."

So, do you think that Catholics are going to heaven?

Chris

Yes, as long as they love God and keep his commandments to the best of their knowledge.
 
My sons scout troop has earned the recognition of 'Cardinal's Troop' for years. Due to this they've had private and public ceremonies for recognition and/or their duties as Cardinal's Troop...While I don't know the heirarchy, I know it was always deemed a privilige to listen to the higher ups in the catholic church speak...I do know that their talks seemed surprisingly moderate to me...not what I would have expected based on the media info surrounding things like Kerry/abortion/communion debate.. More and more I see these churches and leaders leaning toward more liberal approaches...whether that is an evolutionary process or a marketing decision I don't know. I while the largest denominaton may be Catholic, I had heard the second largest denomination in Christianity is non practicing and former Catholics.

Of those that found themselves, fundamental, born again, or Jehovah's Witness...I'm hearing, "It was just what I needed at that point of my life", but what made you move on? Why was it no longer needed?
 
China Cat Sunflower said:
Let's have a show of hands here: How many believe that the Catholic Church is in some way the agent of the anti-christ? I was raised to absolutely fear and despise the Catholic Church. They're idol worshippers you know. Plus, all of that stuff in Revelation about Rome and the horny beasts... So I want to know: does anyone here have the stones to go on record with what your church teaches about the RCC?

Chris

Oh yeah thats right.. you grew up SDA they do instill fear and legalism with their congregation from personal experience.... I however grew up believing that Catholics are fellow sinners and redeemed believers in Christ and that we are all the same body of Christ and that I will be with them in heaven.
 
wil said:
...I while the largest denominaton may be Catholic, I had heard the second largest denomination in Christianity is non practicing and former Catholics...

BTW Wil, you sure you wanted to word it that way? I mean, if one isn't Catholic, then logically one is an "other than catholic Christian"...wouldn't you agree?

Total world's Christian count, 2.1 Billion (33% of the world's population)

Total world's Islam count, 1.1 Billion (next largest religious faith at 15% of the world's population)

Here's your breakdown.

v/r

Q

 
Faithfulservant said:
Oh yeah thats right.. you grew up SDA they do instill fear and legalism with their congregation from personal experience.... I however grew up believing that Catholics are fellow sinners and redeemed believers in Christ and that we are all the same body of Christ and that I will be with them in heaven.

Do you know what your denomination's offical position on catholicism is? I went googling around with the keywords "anti-catholic christian denomination." It was an interesting and eye opening experience.

Chris
 
China Cat Sunflower said:
Do you know what your denomination's offical position on catholicism is? I went googling around with the keywords "anti-catholic christian denomination." It was an interesting and eye opening experience.

Chris
Well I dont know what you would call my denomination...but Calvery Chapel.

www.calvarychapel.com feel free to find their "official position"
 
Dor said:
Well I dont know what you would call my denomination...but Calvery Chapel.

www.calvarychapel.com feel free to find their "official position"

Looks like your good to go. Interesting website!

The priesthood didn't exist in the early church but did exist in the Babylonian religion. The introduction of idols, the introduction of penance, even the worship and the rituals themselves, all had their origin in the Babylonian religion. These were gradually introduced and made part of the church. They were not existent in the early church but became a corrupt form of worship. The Lord calls them spiritual "fornication." This is actually the worship of God in unprescribed ways and manners. The Israelites sought to do this in the Old Testament. They were worshipping God after the ways of the pagans and heathens rather than after the way God had prescribed through Scriptures.

During the period of the great Inquisitions, millions of true and faithful believers
in Jesus Christ, who were looking for the simplicity and beauty of worshipping
Him, were martyred. It is a fact of history. It's the black and dark history of the
church that we hate to acknowledge. But you cannot deny the facts.
We do not seek to speak against our Christian brothers, and there are many
beautiful Christian brothers and sisters today within the Catholic Church.
I am so thankful for the revival that is taking place within the Catholic Church and I
rejoice in what God is doing there. He is drawing out His overcomers. He is
drawing them unto Himself. The spiritual revival within the Catholic Church today is unparalleled in its history.

In the Vatican, several thousand charismatic Catholics gathered together in St.
Peter's for mass, worshipping God, and singing some of the choruses from
Calvary Chapel. Pope Paul encouraged these believers to receive all the spiritual
gifts and to become more fervent in their worship of God. Then he surprised
them all by ending his speech with "Praise the Lord!" God is moving by His Spirit
within that system. The true saints within that system will be raptured with the church. Those who remain to take it over and control it are false prophets. I've been praying for that for years and I'm thrilled to see it.

Nonetheless, the history is still there. That we cannot deny.

http://calvarychapel.com/assets/pdf/ebooks/whattheworldiscomingto.pdf

Chris
 
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