A Second Chance?

Dondi said:
Actually I'm partial to George Harrison's The Inner Light
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Yes, I was just looking this up (and listening to it) the other day, George being my favorite Beatle. :) I think this is I Ching wisdom ... and isn't it interesting how similiar it is to I Corinthians 13? ;)

As for the Biblical discussion of hell, I simply agree with lunamoth where she says, "I believe that when the Bible says that we will all be baptized with fire this means that our sin will be burned away so that all will be left is that which is pure and can merge with God's Love. I don't think that this baptism is reserved only for Christians, but is for all."

The only real hell is this one, here on earth, inasmuch as we are farthest away from God ... literally, as we inhabit the flesh. In the afterlife, I think we draw near, but first (and this is the important part), we must face the world on the other side of death through the lens of belief that we have formed during earthly living. And while this may sound like a statement of greatest subjectivity and relativity ... if you think deeper, it would only be possible if there was/is a truly objective world - a life after death, where there is one set of rules which applies to all!

My belief in this objectivity (wherein our experiences are reaped exactly in accordance as we have sown) allows me to take to heart and also into meditative contemplation the account as provided in the Bardo Thodol, the Book of Liberation through Hearing in the Intermediate State ... which is not unlike the Book of Coming Forth By Day (Egyptian "Book of the Dead," which is of course, really a book for the dead, as is the Tibetan book of the same name).

And neither of these accounts, if we study them objectively, differs in basic principles from the teachings of Christ Jesus. The details may seem quite dissimilar, and this must needs be the case, yet Jesus sought to prepare us in much that same way that the texts I mention do. I grew up with a clairvoyant sister. She witnessed, directly, my Grandfather at his own funeral ... when she was 4 (and I was 9). This past Saturday, I attended my Grandmother's funeral, and my sister could not make it - largely because she was not comfortable dealing with my Grandmother, who has already visited her at least once.

So you see, this question is more than a purely philosophical one for me, it is quite poignant, and I even confirmed my intuitive knowledge a few minutes before the funeral by asking my cousin if she, too, was "extra perceptive," as I phrased it. She didn't need me to explain; she understood perfectly, and nodded. Not so much as my sister, but she does sometimes see.

I base my faith not simply upon these eyewitness testimonies, for I have been aware of the presence of the deceased on many, many occasions throughout my life. I think we all have. We can sense them usually with that "hair rising on the back of the neck" sensation. To be honest, I have worked quite hard at tuning this out - and I believe that this kind of receptivity represents primarily the lowest, densest, slowest, most material vibrations of a world which is as material as this one ... yet which is also pervaded by a greater measure & quality of what we call "Spirit" - speaking Universally, and not purely in terms of the "Holy" Spirit. Holy it is, but it is diffuse(d), and is in principle all-pervasive ... though UNREALIZED (key word) in the darkness of the next world - equally (even more so) as it is in this one.

Please forgive my usual verbosity, but I trying to meet on neutral ground, as I think these ideas are not in the least incompatible with an overall Christian framework. I do not mean the slightest offense, but I would ask - what profit us to maintain a conception, image, vision, or focus upon "hell?" ;) I would third the earlier post, already seconded by Lunamoth, in which Jeannot said, "the Jesuits maintain that we don't have to imagine anyone, even Judas, as actually in it." This, of course, is entirely our own choice, just as it is to reject or accept the spirit of Christ, as also the Holy Spirit (where this is distinct).

To drive my point home, I would just say this - IF God offered us the chance, through some strange miracle and inexplicable act of mercy ... IF He offered us the chance to once and for all abolish a supposedly-existing "eternal hell," would we even allow Him to do so? Or could there be something that would hold us back? What if, in addition, God said, "TRUST ME, all will be well. Things are well in hand. You do not need to concern or burden yourself with Justice, and the notion of reward. Leave that to ME." What if.

After all, this is not a blank check to do as we will in this world, or in any, just as being "born again" does not relinquish us of our Responsibility - but rather, increases it. We are our Brother's Keeper, yet I would agree that only Christ may go after the "one lost lamb." We ourselves have neither the power nor the responsibility of tackling this problem. In truth, we can save only ourselves. But to think that our actions, our thoughts, our prayers, our intentions and our aspirations do not strongly affect all those around us - in this world and the next - is to live blindly.

I do not say that hell does not exist, I only say that I think it is the natural and inevitable result of our actions during earthly life. The very wicked will indeed undergo a great deal of torment, yet it is their own "demons" which they will face - not some type of externally imposed punishment, which only a wicked and spiteful god would be capable of administering. The True God is the God of Love, eternally abiding within the Heart of Love, AS the Heart of Love ...

And so, even amidst the utmost torment and hellish suffering (in ANY world), I believe with every fiber of my being that anyone who earnestly cries out, looking for Good and for Redemption - under whatever name or expression s/he has known it during earthly life - in just such measure and capacity as this person has for receiving the Love of God (ahhh, have we built this vessel, this Chalice, this CUP, this Grail, during our years UPON the earth?) ... in that capacity shall s/he be filled with God's mercy and grace in the beyond. IF this enables the person experiencing torment to REALIZE and RECOGNIZE that s/he is, after all, only facing what he or she has generated - then that suffering might not be ended immediately & completely, but it shall be lessened, and his/her capacity & strength to press on shall be augmented tenfold, a hundredfold, even a thousandfold!

My apologies for the lengthy rambling. Again, I am attempting to be neutral and respectful of views, yet my hope is to show that this kind of understanding is in every way - compatible with the idea of a Loving, Parent-God ("Our Father in Heaven"), as also with a faith and a belief in the Love of Christ Jesus and in the Teachings of the Holy Bible. Forgive me for not quoting Scripture ad infinitum to support all of this ... I have taken a different approach instead. :)

In Love and Light,

taijasi
 
Dor said:
Am I reading this right...Are yall trying to say that everyone is saved no matter what?
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Hi Dor, My take on it is that it is God's call, but there's no reason we must go around saying, or even thinking, someone else is 'condemned' or not based just on what we mere humans know.

luna
 
You made some excellent points, particularly abour our responsibility about being our brother's keeper, tajasi. Thanks for reminding me.
 
Dor said:
Am I reading this right...Are yall trying to say that everyone is saved no matter what?
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I'm not saying that. The whole idea for a second chance after death would be for those who through certain circumstances may have a chance to choose God had they not done so already. I'm reasoning a man like Cornelius, for example, "A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway." (Acts 10:2), had he not heard of Christ might have been given an opportunity to after death. Here was a man who had a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge (at least not the saving knowledge of Christ). Wouldn't you think that God would be reasonable to consider someone who was not far from the kingdom of God that if he died, that this would be taken into account?

I've never been a believer in purgatory, only because I don't see any scriptural precedent. The passage in I Cor. 3 does hint at something like this, but I always regard this as a purging of someone who is already a believer and that the works burned are not sins, but the unfruitful things one did in one's life that did not glorify God.
 
Jeannot said:
There's no mention of a Trinity, either.
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Not directly, but you can derive at it implicitely by the study of the doctrine of the Godhead. For example, at Jesus' baptism, you have Jesus being baptized by John the Baptist, the Spirit in the form of a Dove descending on Jesus, and the sky opening up with a Voice from heaven saying, "This is my Beloved Son...".
 
Dondi said:
Not directly, but you can derive at it implicitely by the study of the doctrine of the Godhead. For example, at Jesus' baptism, you have Jesus being baptized by John the Baptist, the Spirit in the form of a Dove descending on Jesus, and the sky opening up with a Voice from heaven saying, "This is my Beloved Son...".
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One could not deduce a Trinity from that.
 
Dondi said:
Why not? Here you have the Three Persons of the Godhead interacting with one another.
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My understanding is that you can and people have deduced the trinity from this verse.

But you could also deduce quite a different picture of God:
God, the One, ultimately Unified and non-divisible in any way, manifests through His Voice, calling Jesus (a man) His beloved child/son (His chosen and annointed one), and through His revelation/inspiration in the vision of a dove (a symbol of peace).

One God. Manifesting in two sensory ways on earth to other people- sight and sound- making His annointing of Jesus (a man) clear to all at Jesus' baptism.

I'm not saying this is my interpretation of choice- just saying it is at least as plausible as the other. The trinity is doctrine- a theory about the nature of God, based on interpretation of God's Word- not scripture itself.
 
Dondi said:
taijasi,

Actually I'm partial to George Harrison's The Inner Light:

Without going out of my door
I can know all things of earth
Without looking out of my window
I could know the ways of heaven

The farther one travels
The less one knows
The less one really knows

Without going out of my door
You can know all things of earth
With out looking out of my window
You could know the ways of heaven

The farther one travels
The less one knows
The less one really knows

Arrive without travelling
See all without looking
Do all without doing

With the advent of the Internet, I wonder if ole George knew just how prophetic this song would become. ;)
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He should have known... it's a plaigarism of the Tao Te Ching, chapter 47:

"Without going out-of-doors,
one may know all under heaven;
Without peering through windows,
one may know the Way of heaven.

The farther one goes, the less one knows.

For this reason,
The sage knows without journeying,
understands without looking,
accomplishes without acting."

Translation by Victor Mair

:) I show this to students and joke around about how I'll be pretty upset if I see them do the same thing!

(Though I do love the song...)
 
I believe I read somewhere that Harrison admitted to basing this song on a Japanese poem. I'll see if I can dig it up.
 
Dondi said:
Not directly, but you can derive at it implicitely by the study of the doctrine of the Godhead. For example, at Jesus' baptism, you have Jesus being baptized by John the Baptist, the Spirit in the form of a Dove descending on Jesus, and the sky opening up with a Voice from heaven saying, "This is my Beloved Son...".
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There is also the little matter in Genesis, wherein God is talking to someone, and it isn't man, and it isn't Himself. He speaks in the first person plural.

He does it again, when He confounds the languages of man, so that the tower of Babel is abandoned, and man scatters to the four corners of the earth.

That, I would say is pretty direct and specific (obviously there is more than one).

my thoughts

v/r

Q
 
Quahom1 said:
There is also the little matter in Genesis, wherein God is talking to someone, and it isn't man, and it isn't Himself. He speaks in the first person plural.

He does it again, when He confounds the languages of man, so that the tower of Babel is abandoned, and man scatters to the four corners of the earth.

That, I would say is pretty direct and specific (obviously there is more than one).

my thoughts

v/r

Q
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that must have been Jesus that he was talking to , Jesus had a pre-human life in the heavens with God, before coming to the earth as a man.
because I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me. John 6;38 and the one who sent him was his father Jehovah God.
Jesus said ... I am the living bread that came down from heaven; John 6;51
Just as the living Father sent me forth and I live because of the Father, he also that feeds on me, even that one will live because of me. John 6;57
(John 8:23) So he went on to say to them: "YOU are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. YOU are from this world; I am not from this world
Jesus said to them: "If God were YOUR Father, YOU would love me, for from God I came forth and am here. Neither have I come of my own initiative at all, but that One sent me forth John 8;42
For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. For God sent forth his Son into the world, not for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him. John 3;16-18 yes Jesus lived in the heavens with God ,and when God said ....let US make man .........he was talking to his only-begotten Son and that was Jesus
 
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