what convinced you your faith is the truth?

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Imran, hi!

I've checked with someone who might be considered an expert in the field--he served as the Librarian at the Baha'i World Center for a number of years.

He says "The Seven Proofs" is in fact incorporated into Selections from the Writings of the Bab--the best-known compilation of His works; as to the rest, I quote:

These are all considered works by the Báb. The contents are of interest to Bahá'ís as sacred scripture, but, as with the Bible and the Qur'an, any specific laws in them are not binding on Bahá'ís. The broad spiritual principles remain important.

So there you have it!

And please note that, as I said before, most Babi laws are NOT binding upon Baha'is since only a few things, such as the calendar, were retained from the Babi Faith....

Regards,

Bruce
 
BruceDLimber said:
Imran, hi!

I've checked with someone who might be considered an expert in the field--he served as the Librarian at the Baha'i World Center for a number of years.

He says "The Seven Proofs" is in fact incorporated into Selections from the Writings of the Bab--the best-known compilation of His works; as to the rest, I quote:

These are all considered works by the Báb. The contents are of interest to Bahá'ís as sacred scripture, but, as with the Bible and the Qur'an, any specific laws in them are not binding on Bahá'ís. The broad spiritual principles remain important.

So there you have it!

And please note that, as I said before, most Babi laws are NOT binding upon Baha'is since only a few things, such as the calendar, were retained from the Babi Faith....

Regards,

Bruce
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Incidentally, none of these books are books of law. They are all books of concepts. So even if the laws are not binding, are the concepts binding upon the Bahais?

I apologise for repeating the question - Are there any words of Bahaullah which one can quote for selecting which concepts are binding and which are not. Are the followers left to themselves to decide?

Incidentally, these books contain concepts which are materially very damaging to the Bahai Faith. In fact some of them are totally contrary to that of the Bahais. I am delighted that the Bahai authorities actually acknowledge these books. If one goes by the logic that each new dispensation brought a new set of laws and concepts as per the needs of the time - there was hardly a gap between that of the Bab and Bahaullah. In fact not even a generation gap. Why did the dispensation change so fast as there was hardl any change in the thought process or mental make up of the adherents? Why is that the concepts, not the laws of the Bab are diametrically opposite to that of Bahaullah.

Regards
Imran
 
imranshaykh said:
Incidentally, none of these books are books of law. They are all books of concepts. So even if the laws are not binding, are the concepts binding upon the Bahais?

I apologise for repeating the question - Are there any words of Bahaullah which one can quote for selecting which concepts are binding and which are not. Are the followers left to themselves to decide?

Incidentally, these books contain concepts which are materially very damaging to the Bahai Faith.
Click to expand...

On the contrary, we don't see the Babi texts as the LEAST "damaging!"

It's important to remember that the Babi laws and Writings were not INTENDED to be permanent, but only to signal the transition from Islam to the soon-to-appear Baha'i Faith.

And whether they're concepts or laws, the key remains the same: It is the Writings of Bahau'llah (and His appointed successor, 'Abdu'l-Baha) that define the Baha'i Faith, its laws, and its teachings. They are very much the standard, and no, this is not a matter of individuals' picking and choosing things (save for making the overall decision of whether or not to accept Baha'u'llah as a whole).

Best,

Bruce
 
Imran, remember at the beginning I said that the Baha'i board was not for criticism of the Baha'i faith.

At present all you are doing is trying to criticise the Baha'i faith, and it's not welcome, just as Baha'is criticising Islam on the Islam board wouldn't be tolerated.

If you have any sincere enquiring questions, then you are welcome to ask them - but if you're you're interested in doing is trying to attack the Baha'i faith on their own board, then you'll simply find your access to CR removed.

I've warned you about this issue before - you don't get another warning.
 
A Fair Question...

Imran wrote:

If one goes by the logic that each new dispensation brought a new set of laws and concepts as per the needs of the time - there was hardly a gap between that of the Bab and Bahaullah. In fact not even a generation gap. Why did the dispensation change so fast as there was hardl any change in the thought process or mental make up of the adherents?

My reply:

I think that is a fair question... but it probably deserves a separate topic namely the history of the Baha'i Faith.

Remember that the Babi movement had undergone a great deal of pressure from the ecclesiastical and state authorities in a few years. About twenty thousand people were martyred.

The purpose of the Babi dispensation we think was to shake things up... and prepare the way for "Him Whom God would make Manifest" From the Writings of the Bab you have a feeling of how powerful this Dispensation would be:

"ON the Day of Resurrection when He Whom God will make manifest cometh unto you, invested with conclusive proofs, ye shall hold His Cause as being devoid of truth, whereas God hath apprised you in the Bayán that no similarity existeth between the Cause of Him Whom God will make manifest and the cause of others. How can anyone besides God reveal a verse such as to overwhelm all mankind? Say, great is God! Who else but Him Whom God will make manifest can spontaneously recite verses which proceed from His Lord—a feat that no mortal man can ever hope to accomplish?"

From the Kitab-i-Asma found in Selections from the Writings of the Bab.

There are some parallels in history to this in the relationship between John the Baptist and Jesus Christ Who were contemporaries. Recall that some of the disciples of John later became disciples of Christ just as many of the Babis later became Baha'is. Lord Buddha and Mahavira Jina were also contemportaries..

Spiritually though and at Their Core we believe the Message of the Bab and Baha'u'llah were the same but the aims and purposes differed.

- Art
 
I said:
Imran, remember at the beginning I said that the Baha'i board was not for criticism of the Baha'i faith.

At present all you are doing is trying to criticise the Baha'i faith, and it's not welcome, just as Baha'is criticising Islam on the Islam board wouldn't be tolerated.

If you have any sincere enquiring questions, then you are welcome to ask them - but if you're you're interested in doing is trying to attack the Baha'i faith on their own board, then you'll simply find your access to CR removed.

I've warned you about this issue before - you don't get another warning.
Click to expand...

Nobody is criticising the Bahai Faith - this is a very unfair comment. Is this board a one way street with no objectivity or that one is only expected to listen to whatever other members are saying without raising any questions?

Go through my posts - I have been a student of the Faith for more than 10 years and have studied the Faith. Who should I get my questions clarified from? I came here, and I said it right upfront, not to convert Bahais into Muslims nor to get myself or other Muslims converted to Bahaism. I came here to learn.

Yet, I see that Bahais are allowed to post links to whatever they wish. Yet, when I put a link to my web site, it was called "antagonistic". Very unfair.

You can do whatever you want. You are the administrator after all. Yet, I repeat, I have asked questions in a very civilised manner and not in a way that would hurt the sensibilities of any person, leave alone the Bahais.

Regards
Imran Shaykh
 
BruceDLimber said:
On the contrary, we don't see the Babi texts as the LEAST "damaging!"

It's important to remember that the Babi laws and Writings were not INTENDED to be permanent, but only to signal the transition from Islam to the soon-to-appear Baha'i Faith.

And whether they're concepts or laws, the key remains the same: It is the Writings of Bahau'llah (and His appointed successor, 'Abdu'l-Baha) that define the Baha'i Faith, its laws, and its teachings. They are very much the standard, and no, this is not a matter of individuals' picking and choosing things (save for making the overall decision of whether or not to accept Baha'u'llah as a whole).

Best,

Bruce
Click to expand...

Sorry for repeating the question - is there any standard by which one can judge which texts of the Bab are in force and which superceeded. Which should be referred for learning and which discarded? If there is any comment or direct law from the words of Bahaullah, it would be most clear direction for us.

One can wish to accept Bahaullah as a whole. However if Bab is the forerunner of the Faith (and Bahaullah), will it be correct only to accept the words of the Bab in which there is an allusion to Bahaullah or to read his words from a holistic perspective?

Regards
Imran
 
BruceDLimber said:
On the contrary, we don't see the Babi texts as the LEAST "damaging!"

It's important to remember that the Babi laws and Writings were not INTENDED to be permanent, but only to signal the transition from Islam to the soon-to-appear Baha'i Faith.

And whether they're concepts or laws, the key remains the same: It is the Writings of Bahau'llah (and His appointed successor, 'Abdu'l-Baha) that define the Baha'i Faith, its laws, and its teachings. They are very much the standard, and no, this is not a matter of individuals' picking and choosing things (save for making the overall decision of whether or not to accept Baha'u'llah as a whole).

Best,

Bruce
Click to expand...


Dear Bruce, you mentioned, "It's important to remember that the Babi laws and Writings were not INTENDED to be permanent, but only to signal the transition from Islam to the soon-to-appear Baha'i Faith."

Is there some word from Bahaullah to this effect?

Did the Holy Prophet of Islam say something to this effect?

Regards
Imran
 
imranshaykh said:
Dear Bruce, you mentioned, "It's important to remember that the Babi laws and Writings were not INTENDED to be permanent, but only to signal the transition from Islam to the soon-to-appear Baha'i Faith."

Is there some word from Bahaullah to this effect?

Did the Holy Prophet of Islam say something to this effect?

Regards
Imran
Click to expand...

The Bab Himself referred to the primacy of "Him Whom God will make manifest" has being able to abrogate all the laws of the Bayan. Every dispensation is a resurrection in the Baha'i concept... but this Imran again takes us away from the actual topic here which is "What convinced you your faith is the truth".

- Art
 
arthra said:
The Bab Himself referred to the primacy of "Him Whom God will make manifest" has being able to abrogate all the laws of the Bayan. Every dispensation is a resurrection in the Baha'i concept... but this Imran again takes us away from the actual topic here which is "What convinced you your faith is the truth".
- Art
Click to expand...

Dear Art:

We are in fact dealing with "what convinced you your Faith is the truth". Since this is thread within the Bahai domain and going by the first question posted in the thread, it is very relevant.

If one has to study the Bahai Faith, one cannot ignore the Babi dispensation since, as you have correctly outlined, the Bahai Faith considers the Bab as the one who prophecised about "Whom Allah will Manifest" One cannot correctly study the Babi dispensation without understanding the life and the times of the Bab. Hence one needs to be convinced about the Bab primarily so that one can be convinced about the Bahai Faith.

Right from his first revelation and successively in his books, the Bab referred to Mohammed Ibnil Hasan by name and by genealogy as the revered 12th Imam. At 4 places, Qayyamul Asma (hs first revelation), Dalaelus Sabah, Sahifae Adaliyah and Tafseere' Surah Kausar, the Bab said that Mohammed Ibnil Hasan is the 12th Imam - in fact, he not only acknowledged the 12th Imam, but also prayed to him for deliverance. In the book, Tafseere' Surah Kausar, he says that Baqiyatullah, Sahibazzaman, Al Qaem, Al Mahdi is Mohammed Ibnil Hasan and that when he was in Mecca, he saw a revered person who he (the Bab) thought was the 12th Imam. Again, for dear of being labelled antagonistic, I am unable to include the links to these pages in this thread. These books are in Arabic as well as in Persian. Perhaps if you send me your email address, I will send these to you.

- just a clarification - Mohammed Ibnil Hasan, the 12th Shiite Imam, who the Shiites believe is in occultation. Mohammed Ibnil Hasan is also called Baqiyatullah, Sahebazzaman, Al Qaem and Al Mahdi by the Shiites from traditions which have their origin more than 1000 years before the advent of the Bab and the Bahai Faith.

So my question is how does one know that the Bab was referring to Bahaullah only and not to Mohammed Ibnil Hasan as "the one whom Allah will Manifest".

Throughout his life, the Bab gave clear signals that the 12th Imam, Mohammed Ibnil Hasan is the one whom he (he Bab) himself was awaiting. This is clear from his words in which he mentions the 12th Imam ans the prophecies about him by name and by geneology. Why should one believe that Bahaullah was the one whom Allah will Manifest.

I, in extreme humility, request your opinion in this regard so that the doubt in my mind should be erased.

Regards
Imran
 
Imran,

I think you continue to stray from the main topic here. You are basically using this thread to criticize the Baha'i Faith and your sources are biased.

Your sources on "Baha'i awareness" are clearly an attack our Faith and are not welcome on this Baha'i Board.

- Art
 
imranshaykh said:
Nobody is criticising the Bahai Faith - this is a very unfair comment. Is this board a one way street with no objectivity or that one is only expected to listen to whatever other members are saying without raising any questions?

Go through my posts - I have been a student of the Faith for more than 10 years and have studied the Faith. Who should I get my questions clarified from? I came here, and I said it right upfront, not to convert Bahais into Muslims nor to get myself or other Muslims converted to Bahaism. I came here to learn.

Yet, I see that Bahais are allowed to post links to whatever they wish. Yet, when I put a link to my web site, it was called "antagonistic". Very unfair.

You can do whatever you want. You are the administrator after all. Yet, I repeat, I have asked questions in a very civilised manner and not in a way that would hurt the sensibilities of any person, leave alone the Bahais.

Regards
Imran Shaykh
Click to expand...

It's not unfair - there's an Islam board where Muslims are fine to post links about Islam and answer questions on Islam.

Point is - you came to the Baha'i board carrying an anti-Baha'i link, and your questions are primarily about deconstructing the Baha'i faith. You say you're here to learn but you come across entirely as someone who feels they can see great big holes in the Baha'i faith, and are interesting in opening them up to convince the Baha'i members here the error of their words.

You say you're here only to ask interested questions, but your intentions and motives are easily read as otherwise.

Anyway, the point is made.
 
arthra said:
Imran,
I think you continue to stray from the main topic here. You are basically using this thread to criticize the Baha'i Faith and your sources are biased. Your sources on "Baha'i awareness" are clearly an attack our Faith and are not welcome on this Baha'i Board.
- Art
Click to expand...

Dear Art:

Why is simple questioning considered as an attack on the Faith? Why are my sources considered biased? Especially when they are books of the Bahai Faith. I would understand if I brought the opinions of Muslim scholars or from Islamic sources. I have not done that.

What I have been doing is questioning statements made by Bahai adherents on the forum with an emphasis on references. I have no issue acknowledging any of the statements if they were backed by at least one reference.

For example,

I was informed, some of the books of the Bab were superceeded and some not. I asked which ones and is there some statement of Bahaullah to that effect. Is that a logical and rational question?

I was informed that Bab was the return of the prophecies of the Mahdi. I asked which ones. Is that a logical and rational question?

I was informed that the Quran prophecised about the coming of Bahaullah. I asked which verses of Quran foretold that event. I got some replies to which my question was whether there were any traditions to the effect from the Holy Prophet or the Imams which corroborated the general belief of the Bahais. Now is that a logical and rational question?

To each of the above, I received no replies, only a post from Bahais saying that my questions construe an "attack" on the Faith. What I have been doing is only putting a question further to the statements so that one can satisfy oneself. Nothing more, nothing less. At no point of time, have I even challenged the belief and said that the Faith was wrong. Read my posts. I have only added a layer of one more question to each statement. Surely, that cannot be construed as an attack for there is no intention to do so.

Secondly, as regards the books, I first questioned whether the Bahais accept the 4 books of the Bab which I listed down. Bruce (I think) said yes. I asked for the most current view of the Bahais on these books. And then outlined what I have read in the books. Some person should clarify what I read and outlined. If we all percieve any questioning to be an attack, how will we ever learn? And why should my sources be considered biased when these are Bahai books, not books from Islam? Is that not an unfair comment and one that is prejudiced?

Dont take my web site to be a sign of my prejudice. I am not prejudiced. I have only asked questions, albeit difficult ones on the web site with the disclaimer that if my references are proved wrong, I will happily change the content on my web site. But unfortunately no person challenges the references, they challenge the thought itself.

Is it my fault that I took the trouble of reading more than the average Bahais? That I took the effort of pulling out books which were unknown and read and re-read it completely. If any person did that in Islam or any other forum, he would be considered an expert. But I do not claim to be an expert and fashion my own views. I go and humbly ask the Bahais about their views. Now when I have questions, it is considered as an attack?

Regards
Imran
 
Imran, hi!

If you'd really like a true understanding of the Baha'i position and where we're coming from (as you say you do), then I urge you to go to the www.reference.bahai.org website and read The Book of Certitude (aka Kitab-i-Iqan) by Baha'u'llah there!

(Or if you prefer, www.bahaistudy.org has this same work available as a talking book that you can listen to.)

I guarantee itwill give you the best possible understanding of our theology and belief!

Peace,

Bruce
 
BruceDLimber said:
Imran, hi!

If you'd really like a true understanding of the Baha'i position and where we're coming from (as you say you do), then I urge you to go to the www.reference.bahai.org website and read The Book of Certitude (aka Kitab-i-Iqan) by Baha'u'llah there!

(Or if you prefer, www.bahaistudy.org has this same work available as a talking book that you can listen to.)

I guarantee itwill give you the best possible understanding of our theology and belief!

Peace,

Bruce
Click to expand...

hi Bruce:

Thanks for one of the most welcoming response that I have had in this forum for a long time! Sure, I will re-read (emphasise, re-read) the Iqan!

I took the official Bahai web site as the standard of understanding the Bahai Faith. I found many things which are not corroborated anywhere, not even in Bahai books. Hence I came here to learn!

May I be permitted to ask one question? If you say yes, I will ask. If no, then skip.

Regards
Imran
 
BruceDLimber said:
Questions are always welcome!
I don't always promise an answer, though, as I may well not be able to answer it.... :)
Regards,
Bruce
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What is the position of the Bab in the Bahai Faith:
1. Is he an independent prophet?
2. Or is the the promised Mahdi of Islam?

Regards
Imran
 
imranshaykh said:
What is the position of the Bab in the Bahai Faith:
1. Is he an independent prophet?
2. Or is the the promised Mahdi of Islam?

Regards
Imran
Click to expand...


From our point of view He was both a Manifestation of God and revealed Scriptures as well as fulfilling the prophecy of Mahdi and Qaim.

Here is also a reference from the Iqan:

It is evident unto thee that the Birds of Heaven and Doves of Eternity speak a
twofold language. One language, the outward language, is devoid of allusions,
is unconcealed and unveiled; that it may be a guiding lamp and a beaconing
light whereby wayfarers may attain the heights of holiness, and seekers may
advance into the realm of eternal reunion. Such are the unveiled traditions and
the evident verses already mentioned. The other language is veiled and
concealed, so that whatever lieth hidden in the heart of the malevolent may be
made manifest and their innermost being be disclosed. Thus hath Sádiq, son of
Muhammad, spoken: "God verily will test them and sift them." This is the divine
standard, this is the Touchstone of God, wherewith He proveth His servants.
None apprehendeth the meaning of these utterances except them whose hearts are
assured, whose souls have found favour with God, and whose minds are detached
from all else but Him. In such utterances, the literal meaning, as generally
understood by the people, is not what hath been intended. Thus it is recorded:
"Every knowledge hath seventy meanings, of which one only is known amongst the
people. And when the Qá'im shall arise, He shall reveal unto men all that which
remaineth." He also saith: "We speak one word, and by it we intend one and
seventy meanings; each one of these meanings we can explain."

-- Bahá'u'lláh, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 255

And from the Bab Himself:

PONDER likewise the Dispensation of the Apostle of God which lasted twelve
hundred and seventy years till the dawn of the manifestation of the
Bayan.

He directed everyone to await the advent of the Promised Qa'im. All
deeds which in the Islamic Dispensation began with Muhammad should find
their consummation through the appearance of the Qa'im.

God hath made Him
manifest invested with the proof wherewith the Apostle of God was invested,
so that none of the believers in the Qur'an might entertain doubts about
the validity of His Cause, for it is set down in the Qur'an that none but
God is capable of revealing verses. During the period of 1270 years no one
among the followers of the Qur'an ever witnessed a person appearing with
conclusive proofs.

Now the Ever-Living Lord hath made manifest and invested
with supreme testimony this long-awaited Promised One from a place no one
could imagine and from a person whose knowledge was deemed of no account.

--The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 118



- Art
 
arthra said:
From our point of view He was both a Manifestation of God and revealed Scriptures as well as fulfilling the prophecy of Mahdi and Qaim.

Here is also a reference from the Iqan:

It is evident unto thee that the Birds of Heaven and Doves of Eternity speak a
twofold language. One language, the outward language, is devoid of allusions,
is unconcealed and unveiled; that it may be a guiding lamp and a beaconing
light whereby wayfarers may attain the heights of holiness, and seekers may
advance into the realm of eternal reunion. Such are the unveiled traditions and
the evident verses already mentioned. The other language is veiled and
concealed, so that whatever lieth hidden in the heart of the malevolent may be
made manifest and their innermost being be disclosed. Thus hath Sádiq, son of
Muhammad, spoken: "God verily will test them and sift them." This is the divine
standard, this is the Touchstone of God, wherewith He proveth His servants.
None apprehendeth the meaning of these utterances except them whose hearts are
assured, whose souls have found favour with God, and whose minds are detached
from all else but Him. In such utterances, the literal meaning, as generally
understood by the people, is not what hath been intended. Thus it is recorded:
"Every knowledge hath seventy meanings, of which one only is known amongst the
people. And when the Qá'im shall arise, He shall reveal unto men all that which
remaineth." He also saith: "We speak one word, and by it we intend one and
seventy meanings; each one of these meanings we can explain."

-- Bahá'u'lláh, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 255

And from the Bab Himself:

PONDER likewise the Dispensation of the Apostle of God which lasted twelve
hundred and seventy years till the dawn of the manifestation of the
Bayan.

He directed everyone to await the advent of the Promised Qa'im. All
deeds which in the Islamic Dispensation began with Muhammad should find
their consummation through the appearance of the Qa'im.

God hath made Him
manifest invested with the proof wherewith the Apostle of God was invested,
so that none of the believers in the Qur'an might entertain doubts about
the validity of His Cause, for it is set down in the Qur'an that none but
God is capable of revealing verses. During the period of 1270 years no one
among the followers of the Qur'an ever witnessed a person appearing with
conclusive proofs.

Now the Ever-Living Lord hath made manifest and invested
with supreme testimony this long-awaited Promised One from a place no one
could imagine and from a person whose knowledge was deemed of no account.

--The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 118

- Art
Click to expand...

Wonderful!

Thanks for your reply. I have couple of questions:

1. Is the tradition reported from Imam Sadiq (as) in Iqan the only tradition which is generally accepted by the Bahais about the Mahdi or are there some other prophecies as well? If yes, then please could you outline these...

2. The Bab, assuming he was the Mahdi and the Qaem, opened the words of Allah, then would the Tafseer (exegesis, explanation) written by the Bab about the chapter of Kauthar classify as "unsealing of the books, the explanation of 70 meanings of the Quran...."

3. The quotation of the Bab as given in "Selections..." Is it possible to get the reference of the original writing from which this quotation is taken, whether Bayan or Qayyamul Asma etc...

Many thanks.

Regards
Imran
 
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