what convinced you your faith is the truth?

[arthra]

My dear Imran your questions are answered below but I would suggest to you that they again stray from the actual topic here.

imranshaykh:

1. Is the tradition reported from Imam Sadiq (as) in Iqan the only tradition which is generally accepted by the Bahais about the Mahdi or are there some other prophecies as well? If yes, then please could you outline these...

My reply:

No it is not the only tradition known to Baha'is...as in the following:

"Furthermore, in the Arba'in which is a compilation of Shi'ah Tradition it is recorded:

"Out of Bani-Hashim there shall come forth a Youth Who shall reveal new laws. He shall summon the people unto Him, but none will heed His call. Most of His enemies will be the divines [i.e. religious leaders]. His bidding they will not obey, but will protest saying: 'This is contrary to that which hath been handed down unto us by the Imams of the Faith.

(We see the above as having been fulfilled by the reaction of many of the Ullama to the ministry of the Bab over a hundred and fifty years ago and continuing down to this day.)

"Imam Sadiq is also recorded to have said:

"There shall appear a Youth from Bani-Hashim, Who will bid the people plight fealty unto Him. His Book will be a new Book, unto which He shall summon the people to pledge their faith. Stern is His Revelation unto the Arab. If ye hear it about Him, hasten unto Him."

(The Bab was a Siyyid Who also brought a new Revelation as noted above)


2. The Bab, assuming he was the Mahdi and the Qaem, opened the words of Allah, then would the Tafseer (exegesis, explanation) written by the Bab about the chapter of Kauthar classify as "unsealing of the books, the explanation of 70 meanings of the Quran...."

My reply:

Baha'u'llah makes reference above: Thus it is recorded:
"Every knowledge hath seventy meanings, of which one only is known amongst the
people. And when the Qá'im shall arise, He shall reveal unto men all that which
remaineth." He also saith: "We speak one word, and by it we intend one and
seventy meanings; each one of these meanings we can explain."

Authoritative "Tafsir" as understood by you Imran is not something we engage in as you probably understand it as only certain Central Figures (like Abdul-Baha or Shoghi Effendi) have provided it so we may have our own opinions but they are not authoritative for other Baha'i, so we do not have a class of Ullama as in Islam.

3. The quotation of the Bab as given in "Selections..." Is it possible to get the reference of the original writing from which this quotation is taken, whether Bayan or Qayyamul Asma etc...

My reply it is an excerpt from the Dala'il-i-Sab'ih and has noted can be found on p. 119 The Selections from the Writings of the Bab published in 1976 iis still in print.

- Art

 

[arthra]

Just a note from the above...on the question

(Would) the Tafseer (exegesis, explanation) written by the Bab about the chapter of Kauthar classify as "unsealing of the books, the explanation of 70 meanings of the Quran...."

My comment:

The Commentary on the Surih of Kawthar was we believe a revealed Writing of the Bab produced in a miraculous way for one who was a later called Vahid..a foremost follower of the Bab.

Many of the Bab's works however were not well preserved as there was much persecution and destruction of His works.. some were interpolated by enemies so without an authorized text we cannot really comment on it.

- Art

 

[BruceDLimber]

Imran, hi!

The unsealing of the books was accomplished by Baha'u'llah through His writing of The Book of Certitude (aka Kitab-i-Iqan), the book I've been recommending to you!

Peace,

Bruce

 

[imranshaykh]

My dear Imran your questions are answered below but I would suggest to you that they again stray from the actual topic here.

Dear Art:

I am very much within the framework of the question which is related to the Bab, the Mahdi of the Bahais.

imranshaykh:
1. Is the tradition reported from Imam Sadiq (as) in Iqan the only tradition which is generally accepted by the Bahais about the Mahdi or are there some other prophecies as well? If yes, then please could you outline these...

My reply:

No it is not the only tradition known to Baha'is...as in the following:

"Furthermore, in the Arba'in which is a compilation of Shi'ah Tradition it is recorded:

"Out of Bani-Hashim there shall come forth a Youth Who shall reveal new laws. He shall summon the people unto Him, but none will heed His call. Most of His enemies will be the divines [i.e. religious leaders]. His bidding they will not obey, but will protest saying: 'This is contrary to that which hath been handed down unto us by the Imams of the Faith.

(We see the above as having been fulfilled by the reaction of many of the Ullama to the ministry of the Bab over a hundred and fifty years ago and continuing down to this day.)

"Imam Sadiq is also recorded to have said:

"There shall appear a Youth from Bani-Hashim, Who will bid the people plight fealty unto Him. His Book will be a new Book, unto which He shall summon the people to pledge their faith. Stern is His Revelation unto the Arab. If ye hear it about Him, hasten unto Him."

(The Bab was a Siyyid Who also brought a new Revelation as noted above)

These traditions do not exist in the book. So if you can share the page numbers and the author of the book, I can know that I am referring to the correct book and the correct author.

2. The Bab, assuming he was the Mahdi and the Qaem, opened the words of Allah, then would the Tafseer (exegesis, explanation) written by the Bab about the chapter of Kauthar classify as "unsealing of the books, the explanation of 70 meanings of the Quran...."

My reply:

Baha'u'llah makes reference above: Thus it is recorded:
"Every knowledge hath seventy meanings, of which one only is known amongst the
people. And when the Qá'im shall arise, He shall reveal unto men all that which
remaineth." He also saith: "We speak one word, and by it we intend one and
seventy meanings; each one of these meanings we can explain."

Authoritative "Tafsir" as understood by you Imran is not something we engage in as you probably understand it as only certain Central Figures (like Abdul-Baha or Shoghi Effendi) have provided it so we may have our own opinions but they are not authoritative for other Baha'i, so we do not have a class of Ullama as in Islam.

Tafseer means explanation / exegesis. It is an allusion to getting the hidden / apparent meaning of the verses by an authority. The book of the Bab is called Tafseere' Surah Kauthar - The explanation / exegesis of the Chapter of Kauthar by the Bab. This tafseer is not by any Islamic Ulema.

3. The quotation of the Bab as given in "Selections..." Is it possible to get the reference of the original writing from which this quotation is taken, whether Bayan or Qayyamul Asma etc...

My reply it is an excerpt from the Dala'il-i-Sab'ih and has noted can be found on p. 119 The Selections from the Writings of the Bab published in 1976 iis still in print.
- Art

May I request your attention to page 47 of Dala'il-i-Sabih in which the Bab says that the 12th Imam is Mohammed Ibnil Hasan testified in the Tablet of Fatemah. How does one reconcile this with the Bahai concept that the Bab was the 12th Imam when the Bab himself says that he is not the 12th Imam.

Regards
Imran

 

[imranshaykh]

Just a note from the above...on the question

(Would) the Tafseer (exegesis, explanation) written by the Bab about the chapter of Kauthar classify as "unsealing of the books, the explanation of 70 meanings of the Quran...."

My comment:

The Commentary on the Surih of Kawthar was we believe a revealed Writing of the Bab produced in a miraculous way for one who was a later called Vahid..a foremost follower of the Bab.

Many of the Bab's works however were not well preserved as there was much persecution and destruction of His works.. some were interpolated by enemies so without an authorized text we cannot really comment on it.

- Art

Is it possible to get the authorised version of Tafseere' Surah Kauthar? This is critical - extremely critical for my leap of Faith. I do have a copy of the Tafseer, but since you mentioned an authorised version, maybe that will be better.

Regards
Imran

 

[imranshaykh]

Imran, hi!

The unsealing of the books was accomplished by Baha'u'llah through His writing of The Book of Certitude (aka Kitab-i-Iqan), the book I've been recommending to you!

Peace,

Bruce

Hi Bruce:

I am still at the Bab - if the Bab is all of this - prophet, manifestation, Mahdi - all in one, it is important to get past him first! I will hopefully, if Allah wills reach the Iqan as well.

Regards
Imran

 

[paul]

is true that in the bahai understanding, christ was no more than a prophet?

and how then does it understand the virgin birth, of which christ was born of no man, took the body of a man, but came into being unlike any other man, but came completely from God.
that could liken him to adam, but does the bahai faith even take the story of adam and eve as literal?

if it does and adam was the first man created of God, then this is the start of the whole human race, and he was created a man, and did sin.
but christ was not the first man, but came into a world where man already existed, and was to be the saviour as his name jesus in the hebrew tongue means, and as the angel said his name shall be called for he shall save his people from their sin (mat 1:21)

and all prophets from adam were born of men, or does the bahai faith teach differently, and wouldn't someone today, born of a virgin, be greater than any bahai prophet or teacher?
for how could such a person be anything else, but the son of God, to have no father but God, as adam was in creation, and the whole human race in this way, but surely christ is something greater coming in this way to a world already created, which all have human fathers playing a part in their reproduction, but christ was not reproduced in this way, but surely coming of a greater source, and surely in this having a greater nature?

Mat 21:33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: Mat 21:34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
Mat 21:35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
Mat 21:36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
Mat 21:37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
Mat 21:38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
Mat 21:39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
Mat 21:40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
Mat 21:41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

if christ was the son in this parable, doesn't this give him a greater honour and authority than any of the prophets before him, and unless other sons were to come after him, than those also to come after him if being only prophets?

how do the bahai prophets explain such things?

 

[arthra]

paul wrote:

is true that in the bahai understanding, christ was no more than a prophet?

My response:

First we need to explain our understanding of what is a Manifestation of God which we Baha'is believe the Lord Jesus was... A Manifestation is a Perfect Reflection of God from conception...that is no work on their part to reflect God's Will and Purpose. A Manifestation brings a new Scripture and dispensation to mankind...just as Jesus brought the Gospel. Jesus Himself alludes to Himself as a "prophet" so if He is also a Prophet can we also consider Him so?

The understanding of "prophet" for many Christians is I think somewhat watered down because you have "lesser" prophets in the Old Testament or "prophets" in your churches as I recall mentioned in Scripture... These "prophets" were clearly under the shadow of either Moses another Manifestation of God to us Baha'is or Jesus Christ.

Paul:

and how then does it understand the virgin birth, of which christ was born of no man, took the body of a man, but came into being unlike any other man, but came completely from God.
that could liken him to adam, but does the bahai faith even take the story of adam and eve as literal?

My response:

Baha'is accept the miracle of the "Virgin Birth" of Jesus. Adam you'll recall was also "born" or rather created without a human father. One issue is if God is perfectly reflected in Him (Jesus) is He "God" and we Baha'is would say no He is not God but perfectly reflects Him... If I show you a finely polished mirror with the sun's image perfectly relfected in it, would you call it the Sun? The Sun does not descend to earth but we are blessed by it's life giving rays over 93,000,000 miles. We do not take the story of Adam and Eve literally.

Paul,

if it does and adam was the first man created of God, then this is the start of the whole human race, and he was created a man, and did sin.
but christ was not the first man, but came into a world where man already existed, and was to be the saviour as his name jesus in the hebrew tongue means, and as the angel said his name shall be called for he shall save his people from their sin (mat 1:21)

and all prophets from adam were born of men, or does the bahai faith teach differently, and wouldn't someone today, born of a virgin, be greater than any bahai prophet or teacher?

My reply:

Thanks you Paul for sharing your beliefs... We accept Jesus Christ as above...a Manifestation of God and we believe He prophesied about His Return. Baha'is believe Baha'u'llah is the Return of Christ.

Paul:

for how could such a person be anything else, but the son of God, to have no father but God, as adam was in creation, and the whole human race in this way, but surely christ is something greater coming in this way to a world already created, which all have human fathers playing a part in their reproduction, but christ was not reproduced in this way, but surely coming of a greater source, and surely in this having a greater nature?

My reply:

Thanks for sharing your beliefs Paul.

Paul:

Mat 21:33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: Mat 21:34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
Mat 21:35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
Mat 21:36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
Mat 21:37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
Mat 21:38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
Mat 21:39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
Mat 21:40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
Mat 21:41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

My reply:

The parable above could be understood I think as Jesus Whose title was "Son of God" came as the son of the householder and was slain and so with the other Manifestations Who came for the same reason and purpose.

Paul:

if christ was the son in this parable, doesn't this give him a greater honour and authority than any of the prophets before him, and unless other sons were to come after him, than those also to come after him if being only prophets?

My reply:

As above... The Mission of all the Prophets and Messengers was the same and similar...

Paul:

how do the bahai prophets explain such things?

My reply:

Baha'is accept the Bab as Forerunner to Baha'u'llah somewhat the same way Christians accept John the Baptist Who prepared teh way for Jesus..

God bless you Paul!

- Art

 

[arthra]

Obviously Imran you have access to books that purport to be copies of the Writiings of the Bab...I have given you reference to the "Selections from the Writings of the Bab" published in 1976 and still in print.

You can also see the text online at

http://bahai-library.com/writings/bab/swb/swball.html

Had the state and ecclesiastical authorities accepted the Bab we would probably not have any issue with the text of Commentary of the Surih of Kawthar but alas they did not and many of His Writings were destroyed or distorted by His enemies hence the need to be certain our text is the authentic one...

The story of the revelation of the Commentary of the Surih of Kawthar is attached here if you had not been aware of it:

"I resolved that in my third interview with the Bab I would in my inmost heart request Him to reveal for me a commentary on the Surih of Kawthar. I determined not to breathe that request in His presence. Should he, unasked by me, reveal this commentary in a manner that would immediately distinguish it in my eyes from the prevailing standards current among the commentators on the Qur'an, I then would be convinced of the Divine character of His Mission, and would readily embrace His Cause. If not, I would refuse to acknowledge Him. As soon as I was ushered into His presence, a sense of fear, for which I could not account, suddenly seized me. My limbs quivered as I beheld His face. I, who on repeated occasions had been introduced into the presence of the Shah and had never discovered the slightest trace of timidity in myself, was now so awed and shaken that I could not remain standing on my feet. The Bab, beholding my plight, arose from His seat, advanced towards me, and, taking hold of my hand, seated me beside Him. `Seek from Me,' He said, `whatever is your heart's desire. I will readily reveal it to you.' I was speechless with wonder. Like a babe that can neither understand nor speak, I felt powerless to respond. He smiled as He gazed at me and said: `Were I to reveal for you the commentary on the Surih of Kawthar, would you acknowledge that My words are born of the Spirit of God? Would you recognise that My utterance can in no wise be associated with sorcery or magic?' Tears flowed from my eyes as I heard Him speak these words.

All I was able to utter was this verse of the Qur'an: `O our Lord, with ourselves have we dealt unjustly: if Thou forgive us not and have not pity on us, we shall surely be of those who perish.'
"It was still early in the afternoon when the Bab requested Haji Mirza Siyyid Ali to bring His pen-case and some paper. He then started to reveal His commentary on the Surih of Kawthar. How am I to describe this scene of inexpressible majesty? Verses streamed from His pen with a rapidity that was truly astounding. The incredible swiftness of His writing, the soft and gentle murmur of His voice, and the stupendous force of His style, amazed and bewildered me. He continued in this manner until the approach of sunset. He did not pause until the entire commentary of the Surih was completed. He then laid down His pen and asked for tea. Soon after, He began to read it aloud in my presence. My heart leaped madly as I heard Him pour out, in accents of unutterable sweetness, those treasures enshrined in that sublime commentary. I was so entranced by its beauty that three times over I was on the verge of fainting. He sought to revive my failing strength with a few drops of rose-water which He caused to be sprinkled on my face."

~ The Dawn Breakers

Source:

http://bahai-library.com/books/dawnbreakers/chapters/9.html

 

[BruceDLimber]

`May I request your attention to page 47 of Dala'il-i-Sabih in which the Bab says that the 12th Imam is Mohammed Ibnil Hasan testified in the Tablet of Fatemah. How does one reconcile this with the Bahai concept that the Bab was the 12th Imam when the Bab himself says that he is not the 12th Imam?

Hi, Imran!

This is EXACTLY analagous to the way John the Baptist denied being Elijah (as recorded in the New Testament) when Christ then stated authoritatively that Joh was indeed Elijah!

So there are obviously two different ways to look at each of these....

(Nor is this any different from the concept of the dual stations of the Divine Messengers, where each can be both the Face of God on earth AND just a man, simultaneously!)

Best,

Bruce

 

[smkolins]

how do the bahai prophets explain such things?

It is a most important question - and the best answer has always been to read it for oneself - in fact it is only just and respects our God-given nature. The Baha'i Faith makes many astounding claims. If they are true they change much of the way everything has been explained for a long time. Fortunately the authorized texts are widely available.

Consider the position of believers - they sincerely believe something is most true and endeavor to protect that Record of the truth from all other affects - poor or misleading translation, quotation out of context... anything that does not give free access to the truth itself. The best record of truth is to illumine everything else - not the reverse. Is not the life and sacrifice of Jesus a result of the misdeeds of those who think they know better? Does not the parable cited hint of the choices of the workers in the vineyard being at variance with the choices of the owner? The representatives of the owner each and all come to re-orient the point of all the work! Indeed is this not more or less what happened to all of the Messengers of God? All were opposed by those who thought they knew better, and all found themselves berift of the gift of God, of faith itself - there is nothing better than working with faith. Without faith in what you are doing it becomes meaningless and it's hard to do one's work well - one can even find fault in how others work and opportunity for personal advantage and then the whole system becomes nothing but competition for personal gain. The workers in the vineyard feared that their lives of apparent comfort and ease, built with injustice and unfairness, was for them. Threatening the way things are always threatens those who are advantage in the way things are but when a Messenger comes it is in fact not the peak of civilization but had become something God has to take a hand in fixing.

So encountering the reported Record of the Truth revealed by the Messengers of God requires a humility of purpose, a sincerity of purpose, and a freedom of purpose - all to seek the Message of God, the truth. If one approaches the Cause of the Messenger of God with a personal agenda, then the test is not if the Messenger has brought the truth, but if one's one preconceptions are up to the challenge.

And the first step of faith, of seeking truth for oneself, is to trust that God will not lead you astray. Then you can seek the truth with the benefit of faith.

Others have already posted links of where one can find the texts to read for oneself. We're here to share the journey.

 

[imranshaykh]

Hi, Imran!

This is EXACTLY analagous to the way John the Baptist denied being Elijah (as recorded in the New Testament) when Christ then stated authoritatively that Joh was indeed Elijah!

So there are obviously two different ways to look at each of these....

(Nor is this any different from the concept of the dual stations of the Divine Messengers, where each can be both the Face of God on earth AND just a man, simultaneously!)

Best,
Bruce

This seems to be a concept (dual stations) which is unique only to the Bahai Faith. In hindsight, one can justify anything - however if you pay attention to the followers of the Bab, then they would have been misguided by the Bab himself. At one place, they looked up to the Bab for guidance and at the same time, the Bab says in a book, called no less than the 7 Proofs that he is not the awaited 12th Imam.

Secondly, with my Muslim background, where I am taught to interpret verses, not on my own, or what I think suits me best, I refer to the traditions of the Prophet for his understanding which I must emulate. In the same way, did the Bab and Bahaullah ever speak about the dual role. In this case, rather, did the Bab specifically speak about his dual role as a Manifestation and as the 12th Imam. Till date, I cannot really remember a thought like this even hinted by any of the prophets.

Regards
Imran

 

[imranshaykh]

Obviously Imran you have access to books that purport to be copies of the Writiings of the Bab...I have given you reference to the "Selections from the Writings of the Bab" published in 1976 and still in print.

You can also see the text online at

http://bahai-library.com/writings/bab/swb/swball.html

Had the state and ecclesiastical authorities accepted the Bab we would probably not have any issue with the text of Commentary of the Surih of Kawthar but alas they did not and many of His Writings were destroyed or distorted by His enemies hence the need to be certain our text is the authentic one...

The story of the revelation of the Commentary of the Surih of Kawthar is attached here if you had not been aware of it:

"I resolved that in my third interview with the Bab I would in my inmost heart request Him to reveal for me a commentary on the Surih of Kawthar. I determined not to breathe that request in His presence. Should he, unasked by me, reveal this commentary in a manner that would immediately distinguish it in my eyes from the prevailing standards current among the commentators on the Qur'an, I then would be convinced of the Divine character of His Mission, and would readily embrace His Cause. If not, I would refuse to acknowledge Him. As soon as I was ushered into His presence, a sense of fear, for which I could not account, suddenly seized me. My limbs quivered as I beheld His face. I, who on repeated occasions had been introduced into the presence of the Shah and had never discovered the slightest trace of timidity in myself, was now so awed and shaken that I could not remain standing on my feet. The Bab, beholding my plight, arose from His seat, advanced towards me, and, taking hold of my hand, seated me beside Him. `Seek from Me,' He said, `whatever is your heart's desire. I will readily reveal it to you.' I was speechless with wonder. Like a babe that can neither understand nor speak, I felt powerless to respond. He smiled as He gazed at me and said: `Were I to reveal for you the commentary on the Surih of Kawthar, would you acknowledge that My words are born of the Spirit of God? Would you recognise that My utterance can in no wise be associated with sorcery or magic?' Tears flowed from my eyes as I heard Him speak these words.

All I was able to utter was this verse of the Qur'an: `O our Lord, with ourselves have we dealt unjustly: if Thou forgive us not and have not pity on us, we shall surely be of those who perish.'
"It was still early in the afternoon when the Bab requested Haji Mirza Siyyid Ali to bring His pen-case and some paper. He then started to reveal His commentary on the Surih of Kawthar. How am I to describe this scene of inexpressible majesty? Verses streamed from His pen with a rapidity that was truly astounding. The incredible swiftness of His writing, the soft and gentle murmur of His voice, and the stupendous force of His style, amazed and bewildered me. He continued in this manner until the approach of sunset. He did not pause until the entire commentary of the Surih was completed. He then laid down His pen and asked for tea. Soon after, He began to read it aloud in my presence. My heart leaped madly as I heard Him pour out, in accents of unutterable sweetness, those treasures enshrined in that sublime commentary. I was so entranced by its beauty that three times over I was on the verge of fainting. He sought to revive my failing strength with a few drops of rose-water which He caused to be sprinkled on my face."

~ The Dawn Breakers

Source:

http://bahai-library.com/books/dawnbreakers/chapters/9.html

here are some statements of the Bab recorded in Tafseeere' Surah Kauthar:

The Bab writes, "Imam Sadiq has related in a lengthy tradition, saying: "The occultation of our Qa'im will be denied by the umma. Some will say, without any knowledge: The Imam was never born; others will say: he was born, but he died. Still others will become disbelievers and will say: The eleventh Imam had no offspring at all. Some will spread factionalism in the community by what they say, and will go beyond the twelve Imams and will count thirteen or more Imams. There will be those who will cause God's anger to engulf them by saying: The spirit of the Qa'im is speaking through another person."

In Tafseere' Surah Kauthar, the Bab says, "He (the twelfth Imam) is a righteous offspring. His patronymic is Abu al-Qasim (the same nick name as the Holy Prophet Muhammad). He is the one invested with God's command (al-qa'im bi-amr allah), the proof of God's existence for God's creatures, the remaining one (baqiyyat allah) among the servants of God, the Mahdi who will guide people to the mysterious matters."

"One day I was busy praying in the holy mosque of Mecca, on the side of the Yamani pillar (of the Kaaba). I noticed a well built and good looking young man who was deeply involved in performing the circumambulation (tawaf). He had a white turban on his head and a woolen cloak on his shoulder. He was with the merchants' group from Fars. There was no more than a few steps of distance between us. All of a sudden a thought came to my mind that he could be the Master of the Command (sahib al-amr). But I was embarrassed to go closer to him. When I finished my prayers I did not find him. Nevertheless, I am not so sure that he was the Master of the Command."


These are only few of the narrations which I am able to write from Tafseere' Kauthar. The rest of the book carries beliefs similar to the Shiites. Hence I requested for an authentic version....does the UHJ have a certified copy? I am sure they do if they have brought quotations from these books of the Bab in SWB...

Regards
Imran

 

[arthra]

Imran,

Again many of the Writings of the Bab were subjected to manipulations by those who wanted to pervert the meanings of his Cause.. Until there is an authenticated translation on this I cannot comment on it nor draw any conclusions.

We are also far from the actual topic.

- Art

 

[imranshaykh]

Imran,

Again many of the Writings of the Bab were subjected to manipulations by those who wanted to pervert the meanings of his Cause.. Until there is an authenticated translation on this I cannot comment on it nor draw any conclusions.

We are also far from the actual topic.

- Art

Dear Art:

I wanted to know if there is an official version of Tafseere' Kausar. It will help because if the "official" version contains such information, it is confusion for Truth seekers like me who has access to these books and can read them in their original languages, unlike average Bahais who have no access to such material and even if they did, they are unable to comprehend the meanings as they are ignorant of the source languages.

This truth finding is important and I hope you will forgive my persistent questioning. I have been bron and brought up as a Muslim who fears god and the Day of Judgement. It is better that one asks tough questions now rather than be subjected to tough questioning in the Hereafter.

As regards the books of the Bab, is there some official list of books which are approved and which the Bahais consider are undulterated or uncorupted. While SWB exists, it is a translation and that too only of selected quotations. I would rather have an official book list, however small it may be and read the books completely to understand the philosophy of the Bab and his attitude towards Islam and the Holy Prophet and when he made the gradual progress towards Bahaullah.

This is important because I have access to a host of books of the Bab - Dalaelus Sabah, Sahifae Adaliyah, Tafseere' Kauthar, Qayyamul Asma etc - all of them in the original languages in which the Bab chose to make his point. However it is likely that you may dismiss all of them as being "unofficial" versions. Which only confuses me as the writings of the Bab talk about another Mahdi, another Qaem (The writings of Tafseere' Surah Kausar are an example of that). At not one place, but at 4 places at different points of time in his writings. Inshallah, if i am able to get the official versions, I can put the doubts in my heart at rest. I appreciate your help for that.

Also, you keep on reminding me that I am straying from the topic, while I believe that I am very much on it. Can you share with me what you belive is the correct topic so that I can restrict my questioning to that.

Regards
Imran

 

[arthra]

Yes Imran I still maintain you are departing from the main topic here which as you know is a simple question put to Baha'is:

What convinced you your faith is the truth?

Your focus seems to be on Babi manuscripts. We've repeated this point that many of the surviving materials of the Bab's revelation did not fare well at the hands of His enemies! In those days (1844-1850) there were no copy machines or printing presses available to the poor Babis to distribute the Word. What people did was have were handwritten documents by scribes and some of these copies fell into the hands of the corrupt clergy of the day and were destroyed or manipulated..interpolated.

Do we have time to allow for a neutral educational and professional institution to assess these fragments and pass on them? I think the authorities in Iran are still hostile to the Faith and do their best to distort it and malign it...witness your own website and continued distortions of our history.

For Baha'is this is very regrettable and sad that after a hundred and sixty years there should be such continued hostility for our Faith in a world that accepts the Universal Declaration of Human Rights that permits people to change their religion and allows freedom of belief.

When the hostility and oppression ends we will have time perhaps to reconsider early Babi documents and verify them.

For now I think our concerns are for Baha'is who are not permitted to advance to higher education simply because they are Baha'is or for them to have basic rights in their country.

- Art

 

[imranshaykh]

Yes Imran I still maintain you are departing from the main topic here which as you know is a simple question put to Baha'is:

What convinced you your faith is the truth?

Your focus seems to be on Babi manuscripts. We've repeated this point that many of the surviving materials of the Bab's revelation did not fare well at the hands of His enemies! In those days (1844-1850) there were no copy machines or printing presses available to the poor Babis to distribute the Word. What people did was have were handwritten documents by scribes and some of these copies fell into the hands of the corrupt clergy of the day and were destroyed or manipulated..interpolated.

Do we have time to allow for a neutral educational and professional institution to assess these fragments and pass on them? I think the authorities in Iran are still hostile to the Faith and do their best to distort it and malign it...witness your own website and continued distortions of our history.

For Baha'is this is very regrettable and sad that after a hundred and sixty years there should be such continued hostility for our Faith in a world that accepts the Universal Declaration of Human Rights that permits people to change their religion and allows freedom of belief.

When the hostility and oppression ends we will have time perhaps to reconsider early Babi documents and verify them.

For now I think our concerns are for Baha'is who are not permitted to advance to higher education simply because they are Baha'is or for them to have basic rights in their country.

- Art

This is very frustrating. Everytime I ask you a question, you launch into a tirade about my web site. Now the question is about the Babi texts. And you tell me about lack of freedom for Bahais in Iran. Now what am I supposed to assume? Is it so difficult to stick to the question and its relevant answer?

The topic, as you have reminded me, is about what convinced you that the Bahai Faith is the truth? I am asking the same question.

All the Babi texts in my posession point to the opposite of whatever you are telling me. It is not my fault that you cannot read Arabic and you base your Faith on only one Babi text. I can read. I have been persistently asking you for an official version of the Tafseer of Kausar. Do you realise what is written in the book? It is totally contrary to whatever you believe as a Bahai. I am not saying that the book may not have been corrupted. It may have. So lets have the official version. Or can we have a list of Babi texts which are signed by a competent Bahai authority so that people like myself who can read the source lanuages must have the benefit of reading these texts.

In a separate thread, when you quoted some traditions. I asked for the reference so that I can satisfy myself of the authenticity of the quotation. Is that an unreasonable demand? Or does this question warrant that you abuse my web site or keep on referring to it. This forum does not allow me to put up any links from my web site. Much as I would want to keep it away, you keep on dragging it into the conversation.

Sure, I refer to Babi texts and wish to understand the intentions and the motives of the Bab. And its not my fault. It is the fault of the Bahais. They said that Bab is the forerunner of the Bahai Faith, not me. If that is correct, then one needs to study the life and times of the Bab, his texts, his history correctly so that a correct picture emerges of the Bab and what he believed in.

So all in all, I am just asking, what will convince me that the Bahai Faith is the truth. I will be convinced if I find the Babi texts to be in conformity with Islam and also with the subsequent Bahai texts.

Regards
Imran Shaykh

 

[arthra]

Imran,

Firstly: The topic here though is not

"I am just asking, what will convince me that the Bahai Faith is the truth."

The topic once again is directed at Baha'is to answer:

What convinced you your faith is the truth?

This is where I think you have gotten side tracked again!

Secondly:

I do not have access to your texts and as you mentioned:

"I am not saying that the book may not have been corrupted. It may have."

So I cannot comment on them.

So there we are.

It is not my fault either that you are have been antagonistic to the Baha'i Faith and apparently posted your prejudiced statements on your website.

No Baha'i by the way would attack Islam in the way you feel impunity to attack our Faith.

- Art

 

[imranshaykh]

Imran,

Firstly: The topic here though is not
"I am just asking, what will convince me that the Bahai Faith is the truth."

The topic once again is directed at Baha'is to answer:
What convinced you your faith is the truth?

This is where I think you have gotten side tracked again!

Secondly:
I do not have access to your texts and as you mentioned:
"I am not saying that the book may not have been corrupted. It may have."
So I cannot comment on them.

So there we are.

It is not my fault either that you are have been antagonistic to the Baha'i Faith and apparently posted your prejudiced statements on your website.
No Baha'i by the way would attack Islam in the way you feel impunity to attack our Faith.
- Art

I am not, I repeat, am not antagonistic to the Bahai Faith. Once again, you have dragged my web site into this discussion.

The Bahais interpret the Quran whatever way they feel best. Most of the times, I receive an interpretation of the Quran, which is not even available in Bahai books - it is a figment of some Bahai's imagination. To an average Muslim, this constitutes an attack on Islam. You are using the Quran itself to make a point which has no standing in Islam. I have not taken any offence to that. Everytime a point is made in this fashion, I respectfully seek the references for the same. And everytime I do that, my web site is dragged into the discussion. I see no logic for that.

If you wish to have the version of Tafseere' Surah Kausar, please let me know I have it in PDF format from the h-net.com web site. It is in Arabic.

So all in all,

May I please know if there is an official version of Tafseere' Kauthar, Sahifae Adaliyah, Dalaaelus Sabah, Qayyamul Asma of the Bab. If not, can we see an injunction from the UHJ or any authority that these books should not be read. In that case, one can safely skip these books in favour of others.

Also, may I know which prophecies of the 12th Imam did the Bab fulfill?

Regards
Imran

 

[arthra]

Imran here was your reply to me back in October 17, 2005

"Hello Art,

Your inference that I do not have a positive inclination towards the Bahai Faith is correct."

Your statement above from August 8, 2006:

"I am not, I repeat, am not antagonistic to the Bahai Faith."

Are you using a form of dissimulation here?

And are you not attempting to "hi-jack" this thread to propound your Shiah view?

- Art