Rebirth/Reincarnation in Christianity

[Vajradhara]

We do not remember our past lives just as we do not remember our current ones.

For example, there are huge gaps in every day in which we cannot remember. If we had to dictate everything we said 20 years ago we could not do it. Maybe we could get a few things, here and there, but there is more blanks than memories... and when this life is no longer around to remind you of the past, everything goes...

This is because are consciousness is sleeping, and we need to awaken it.


Love not sleep, lest thou come to poverty; open thine eyes, [and] thou shalt be satisfied with bread. – Proverbs 20:13

Therefore let us not sleep, as [do] others; but let us watch and be sober. – 1 Thessalonians 5:6

Namaste neoxenos,

thank you for the post.

what about people with photographic memories?

what about people that claim to remember their past lives and provide details that are historically verifiable and then are verified?

what do you mean by "consciousness is sleeping"? are you meaning to indicate aspects of consciousness or the entire thing?

 

[neoxenos]

Namaste neoxenos,

thank you for the post.

what about people with photographic memories?

what about people that claim to remember their past lives and provide details that are historically verifiable and then are verified?

what do you mean by "consciousness is sleeping"? are you meaning to indicate aspects of consciousness or the entire thing?

Dear Vajradhara,

Well, I am interested to ask someone with photographic memory about this. Does anyone care to comment? Does photographic memory fade away?

It is absolutely possible to recover our experiences from past lives, as I have been told at least. I dedicated only two meditations on attempting to uncover the earliest memories of this current life, and I found myself with positive results. So, someone who is much more profound in the art of meditation (I am just a beginner) I am certain can go back to previous lives.

By the sleeping consciousness I mean that we are rarely awake and vigilant throughout life. Usually, we can get by nearly all the time through conditioned and mechanical movements. For example, when we drive to work in the morning, we are tired, we basically turn on auto-pilot, our physical bodies are driving but we are psychologically somewhere else.

So when we say someone is an Awakened Individual, that means they have an awakened consciousness. A consciousness that does not dream. A consciousness that instead of dreaming lives consciously in the superior worlds, day and night.

It is a large topic. I dedicated the first 50 pages of my book to this topic, and, even then, only a superficial understanding can be found.

But, we can do an exercise to get direct experience of our sleeping consciousness. Go out for a walk, or "go and clean your bowl," and consciously experience everything around you, observe your being within the body and the environment surrounding the body. Then, when you are done, do a retrospective exercise. See how much you can remember. If someone can go five minutes in conscious observation of life, without fault, without dream (psychological wanderings), then they are well above average.

So, I would say about 97% of our consciousness is sleeping. Just about all of it.

 

[Vajradhara]

Namaste neoxenos,

thank you for the post.

Dear Vajradhara,


Well, I am interested to ask someone with photographic memory about this. Does anyone care to comment? Does photographic memory fade away?

unfortunatly, this is not an ability that i have.. so we'll both hope that one follows my insane, lurching steps and ends up here with us

It is absolutely possible to recover our experiences from past lives, as I have been told at least. I dedicated only two meditations on attempting to uncover the earliest memories of this current life, and I found myself with positive results. So, someone who is much more profound in the art of meditation (I am just a beginner) I am certain can go back to previous lives.

well... this is simply amazing, from the Buddhist point of view at least. in our tradition, full recollection of ones past lives is only attained when you reach the 10th level of consciousness and are, effectively an Effect Stage Buddha. normal medatition, even through vastly advanced practices such as Annutara Yoga, which is a tantric practice, are incapable of achieving this. your meditational abilities could be truly staggering.... perhpas... you should considering exploring this aspect of your being more fully, you could be of great benefit to all sentient beings.

By the sleeping consciousness I mean that we are rarely awake and vigilant throughout life. Usually, we can get by nearly all the time through conditioned and mechanical movements. For example, when we drive to work in the morning, we are tired, we basically turn on auto-pilot, our physical bodies are driving but we are psychologically somewhere else.

hmm... whilst this is true to a certain extent, it's certainly not the case for all. are you familiar with a term called "multi tasking" from the computer field? this is a term that is used to mean that more than one task is being done in parallel, even though only one task is being displayed to the screen. our brains work somewhat like this... of course, they aren't bivalent systems.. they are multivalent.. but that's conversation for another thread

the Buddhist tradition.. and this is why my summation of my religion is like it is... is about being fully and completely present and aware in this very moment... and methodologies for accomplishing that... not only that... but once accomplished... for maintaining it in perpetuity.

So when we say someone is an Awakened Individual, that means they have an awakened consciousness. A consciousness that does not dream. A consciousness that instead of dreaming lives consciously in the superior worlds, day and night.

interesting... we, Buddhists that is, would have a different take on this... though we'd agree in principle with your statement, i would think. we'd say, by contrast, that all sentient beings are awake by nature.. that is your essence, however, your essence has been obscured by all manner of defilements. to think that awakening is beyond your nature is to place it outside yourself and that is delusion.

It is a large topic. I dedicated the first 50 pages of my book to this topic, and, even then, only a superficial understanding can be found.

another author! i'm telling you... this site has more authors on it that i can shake a stick at! what is the name of your book?

But, we can do an exercise to get direct experience of our sleeping consciousness. Go out for a walk, or "go and clean your bowl," and consciously experience everything around you, observe your being within the body and the environment surrounding the body. Then, when you are done, do a retrospective exercise. See how much you can remember. If someone can go five minutes in conscious observation of life, without fault, without dream (psychological wanderings), then they are well above average.

So, I would say about 97% of our consciousness is sleeping. Just about all of it.

depending on the quality of my practice... i can maintain this aware state for quite awhile.. i'm really not able to measure it since there are no chronometers where i sit. the interesting thing is, of course, that i can remember every single bit of it from every single time of it... however... the experience and how my perceptions are activated during that time are beyond my ability to express. even saying something like... i was wearing a blue robe is, essentially, a nonsenscial statement from the awakened point of view and conveys nothing to the listener.

now... speaking of dreaming... this is a strange phenomena to be sure. i've actually engaged in a specific practice to stop dreaming when i sleep during the night. i've been very successful, in the main, in that effort... though i still will have dreams... especially if there has been some type of emotional incident that is tied to the dream event.

 

[neoxenos]

Hello,

Namaste neoxenos,
well... this is simply amazing, from the Buddhist point of view at least. in our tradition, full recollection of ones past lives is only attained when you reach the 10th level of consciousness and are, effectively an Effect Stage Buddha. normal medatition, even through vastly advanced practices such as Annutara Yoga, which is a tantric practice, are incapable of achieving this. your meditational abilities could be truly staggering.... perhpas... you should considering exploring this aspect of your being more fully, you could be of great benefit to all sentient beings.

I just meant by success that I was able to recover early memories of this life, nothing of previous lives though. I am nothing more than a ignorant who is beginning to understand his own ignorance.

hmm... whilst this is true to a certain extent, it's certainly not the case for all. are you familiar with a term called "multi tasking" from the computer field? this is a term that is used to mean that more than one task is being done in parallel, even though only one task is being displayed to the screen. our brains work somewhat like this... of course, they aren't bivalent systems.. they are multivalent.. but that's conversation for another thread

I know what you mean, and I think the Enlightened one is able to do many things at once perfectly and being aware of that fact, while we have trouble even doing thing while being aware of it. When we begin to psychologically wander, we mostly are unaware of it. That is the problem, there is a lack of observation. We need to observe ourselves if we wish to understand ourselves.

the Buddhist tradition.. and this is why my summation of my religion is like it is... is about being fully and completely present and aware in this very moment... and methodologies for accomplishing that... not only that... but once accomplished... for maintaining it in perpetuity.

I agree.

interesting... we, Buddhists that is, would have a different take on this... though we'd agree in principle with your statement, i would think. we'd say, by contrast, that all sentient beings are awake by nature.. that is your essence, however, your essence has been obscured by all manner of defilements. to think that awakening is beyond your nature is to place it outside yourself and that is delusion.

Right. I have a likeing towards the following: your essence is happy in its perfection but does not know its perfection, and happiness without cognizance of that happiness is not true happiness.

another author! i'm telling you... this site has more authors on it that i can shake a stick at! what is the name of your book?

I am a self proclaimed one, anyway. I do not claim to be very good at it... but I found myself writing huge posts on message boards like this and decieded to take it to the next level as they say. It is called, "A Pragmatic Reevalution: Life, Religion, and Sexuality."

Best Regards,
Steve

 

[Vajradhara]

Namaste neoxenos,

thank you for the post.

I just meant by success that I was able to recover early memories of this life, nothing of previous lives though. I am nothing more than a ignorant who is beginning to understand his own ignorance.

doh! never mind... i just re-read what you typed... it was my own reading incomprehension that led me to think you had recovered your past lives memory... sorry about that... perhaps, i should slow down a bit when i read...

I know what you mean, and I think the Enlightened one is able to do many things at once perfectly and being aware of that fact, while we have trouble even doing thing while being aware of it. When we begin to psychologically wander, we mostly are unaware of it. That is the problem, there is a lack of observation. We need to observe ourselves if we wish to understand ourselves.

indeed one of my favorite expressions of Buddhism is thus:

"To study Buddhism is to study the self. To study the self is to forget the self. To forget the self is to be enlightened by all things. To be enlightened by all things is to drop off our own body and mind, and to drop off the bodies and minds of others. No trace of enlightenment remains, and this no-trace continues endlessly."

~Dogen

I am a self proclaimed one, anyway. I do not claim to be very good at it... but I found myself writing huge posts on message boards like this and decieded to take it to the next level as they say. It is called, "A Pragmatic Reevalution: Life, Religion, and Sexuality."

Best Regards,
Steve

have you had the material published yet or do you have it blogged online somewhere? i'd be pleased to read some of your writing.

 

[neoxenos]

Namaste neoxenos,

thank you for the post.


doh! never mind... i just re-read what you typed... it was my own reading incomprehension that led me to think you had recovered your past lives memory... sorry about that... perhaps, i should slow down a bit when i read...


indeed one of my favorite expressions of Buddhism is thus:

"To study Buddhism is to study the self. To study the self is to forget the self. To forget the self is to be enlightened by all things. To be enlightened by all things is to drop off our own body and mind, and to drop off the bodies and minds of others. No trace of enlightenment remains, and this no-trace continues endlessly."

~Dogen


have you had the material published yet or do you have it blogged online somewhere? i'd be pleased to read some of your writing.

Yes, it is entirely free:
http://neoxenos.com/reevaluation/

Regards,
Steve

 

[granni]

a fine good day, ladies and gentlemen.....

****
re:

John (9:2-4) reports that the disciples asked Jesus whether a blindman had sinned or his parents that he had been born blind. Jesus replied that it was in order that the works of God may be made manifest in the blind man, that is, that the law of cause and effect might be fulfilled. Or, as St. Paul phrased the thought: we reap what we sow. The blind man could not have sown the seeds of his blindness in his present body, but must have done so in a previous lifetime.

****

i disagree with the theory that Jesus' response inferred cause and effect as in a karmaic fulfillment.

note: in order that the works of God may be made manifest in the blind man

i've always seen that sentence as exactly that: the works of God be made manifest.

the miracle of Jesus healing the man's blindness could not occur if the man had been born with sight. ie., there'd have been no miracle for the masses to speak of. it would not have occurred. so, the man was born blind for the express purpose of a day in his future when his path would cross that of a man named Jesus, and that Jesus would 'cure' his blindness. Hence the works of God made manifest.

The lines in John 9 ask if this is because of karma/reincarnation/prior life/sin....and Jesus' answer is: "no."

that the people/the disciples believed in reincarnation and karma is presented as a given, therefore they (naturally) asked the question.

consider also, that as Jesus had been sent to this life, in that specific time frame...... it's not that far a reach to think of others also being sent (to life as we know it) in that same time frame, for the express purpose of contributing to what Jesus was to accomplish.


as in some of the other posts on this board: to become aware is to be able to not only notice all details, but to ably recall them with ease. and in that recalling is noticed that there is nothing.... insignificant.

so it is with the birth and life of the blind man. he certainly is not insignificant. yet none really noticed until that moment. and here we are 2000+ years later.... still wondering about his existance and purpose.

i can jes hear it now,
"Hey! Jesus! See?! I told ya that I'd be remembered!"
"Yes. That's true. You are remembered. But, remember also, it was me who put the mud in yer eyes."
as they high-five and say, "Here's to a job well done."
and God smiles, "But, we got 'em talkin........"

granni


[Admin edit: parsed the HTML characters into HTML code. ]

 

[tarakananda]

Rebirth/Reincarnation in Christianity-Yes!

For a scholarly and interesting article on Reincarnation in the Christianity, see: Link deleted for Site Rules purposes.

 

[Bandit]

there was a good story on this on ABC awhile back if you did not catch it. i dont think it was fabricated either. the parents of this boy are bible believers in which they did not believe it is possible, but later reconciled with that.


http://www.ycsi.net/users/reversespins/proofofreincarnation.html


i dont see it as a doctrine or absolute, but a possibility for some & that there would be a purpose in it, not just a repeated never ending cycle. i am more inclined to hear someones experience than to judge or make a notion that things do not happen. the things in spirit can only be proven, in spirit.

i do have one thought on it though, it seems to me that if and/or when this happens, at some point the soul would remember.

 

[path_of_one]

i dont see it as a doctrine or absolute, but a possibility for some & that there would be a purpose in it, not just a repeated never ending cycle. i am more inclined to hear someones experience than to judge or make a notion that things do not happen. the things in spirit can only be proven, in spirit.

i do have one thought on it though, it seems to me that if and/or when this happens, at some point the soul would remember.

I agree with you, Bandit. I came to the conclusion that reincarnation happens at least some of the time because I myself have memories. I won't get into that, but I will say to read the Buddhist view of all this is fascinating. My own memories and strong opinions about life based on them began when I was very young, and I've never meditated with the intent of receiving them. They just come to me at times, and mostly they are like normal memories- vague remembrances of who I was, where I was, lifeways- though a few are very detailed. I have certain skills (unfortunately, nothing all that marketable ) that I picked up exceedingly easily and felt like I was "remembering" how to do it rather than learning it like the other stuff I do.

At any rate, this experience, while still following Christ since the time I was a child and reading scripture, resulted in reconciling the two eventually and coming to the conclusion that some of us, at least, go 'round more than once. I also believe transmigration is possible, as crazy as that seems to most Christians. But there you have it. You deal with what you're given the best you can, right?

I don't really perceive reincarnation as automatic. Like you're saying Bandit, I think there's reasons for reincarnated beings and that not everyone does this, or at least they don't do it in the same fashion and for the same reasons. I think it is a God-guided process, as in, God tells someone they can learn more, or need to learn more. Or God asks someone to incarnate again to help others. Maybe some people just like occasionally popping back into physical reality again, and God is supportive- I don't know.

The dream thing is interesting. I'd never think to try to not dream. I've had control over my dreams since I was about five years old and so my conscious mind is awake when I dream. I typically, in dream, am split into two- my conscious watches my subconscious come up with ideas and play them out. If I don't like what's going on, or am bored, I just change things for my subconscious "me" that's in the dream. I experience both perspectives simultaneously normally, except in visionary dreams in which I switch to a single perspective- but they come with certain "markers" in the dream and generally a sort of OBE thing. Alternatively, when I'm inspired or have a lot of work to do, I sometimes don't dream, but rather consciously think and work on writing in my head. My body is asleep (I am typically conscious as I enter the sleeping state, unless I'm really tired), but my mind has composed poetry and worked on research papers during this time. Then I wake up and write it down in the morning. It typically needs editing, but it does use time relatively efficiently. I don't do it too often, though, because it's not really that restful. I honestly never even thought to try to stop my mind from running during sleep. I like the interesting world of dream, especially since I control my regular dreams. I love that I can fly and such in dream- gives me an opportunity to do stuff that isn't possible in physical reality.

As for what Thomas was discussing, I found it quite interesting, because I've never had a problem thinking all of nature, including my own body, as very good and possessing the immanence of God, even though I strongly feel my spirit/soul is separate and will move on. It isn't "just" a vessel, and certainly isn't evil. It is a temple of God in which I currently dwell, and I'm grateful for the opportunity of learning it provides. What is fascinating to me is that in much of mainstream Christianity (at least in the States these days), there is the belief in the resurrection and yet also the belief that nature and the human body is bad or evil, fallen from grace. Whereas in Druidry, lots of people believe only in reincarnation and yet see nature and the human body as good and of divine origin, a gift from the the god(s). I guess I'm of the Celtic Christian variety (early), that felt the immanence of divinity in all creation. That "breath of life" that animates us imbues us all with the divine spark and makes all of reality, spiritual and physical, entwined and good at heart (though often clouded by wrongdoing). The grace of Christ, instead of imparting to us the first spark of goodness, awakens the goodness that already was our deepest nature... and like a lighthouse parts the fog to guide ships home, parts the darkness of our wrongdoing and sinful choices, leading us back to the light deep within us and thus to our Creator.

 

[Bandit]

I agree with you, Bandit. I came to the conclusion that reincarnation happens at least some of the time because I myself have memories. I won't get into that, but I will say to read the Buddhist view of all this is fascinating. My own memories and strong opinions about life based on them began when I was very young, and I've never meditated with the intent of receiving them. They just come to me at times, and mostly they are like normal memories- vague remembrances of who I was, where I was, lifeways- though a few are very detailed. I have certain skills (unfortunately, nothing all that marketable ) that I picked up exceedingly easily and felt like I was "remembering" how to do it rather than learning it like the other stuff I do.

hey Path

i want to talk to you a little bit more about some of this. i dont get real deep into it, but i know there is more to it like you are saying, & will be getting back to you in couple of days or so.
i wont forget

 

[Bandit]

I agree with you, Bandit. I came to the conclusion that reincarnation happens at least some of the time because I myself have memories. I won't get into that, but I will say to read the Buddhist view of all this is fascinating. My own memories and strong opinions about life based on them began when I was very young, and I've never meditated with the intent of receiving them. They just come to me at times, and mostly they are like normal memories- vague remembrances of who I was, where I was, lifeways- though a few are very detailed. I have certain skills (unfortunately, nothing all that marketable ) that I picked up exceedingly easily and felt like I was "remembering" how to do it rather than learning it like the other stuff I do.

I believe you. I think something like dejavu or some kind of vision, maybe being caught away in spirit is more what i am seeing with some of this, for me anyway.

At any rate, this experience, while still following Christ since the time I was a child and reading scripture, resulted in reconciling the two eventually and coming to the conclusion that some of us, at least, go 'round more than once. I also believe transmigration is possible, as crazy as that seems to most Christians. But there you have it. You deal with what you're given the best you can, right?

i can't say for sure, but i do believe it has happened once . so anything else, i wont question or doubt what someone else might have gone around more than once. i see it as more in the fulness of time & we will understand it better on that side of Jordan.

I don't really perceive reincarnation as automatic. Like you're saying Bandit, I think there's reasons for reincarnated beings and that not everyone does this, or at least they don't do it in the same fashion and for the same reasons. I think it is a God-guided process, as in, God tells someone they can learn more, or need to learn more. Or God asks someone to incarnate again to help others. Maybe some people just like occasionally popping back into physical reality again, and God is supportive- I don't know.

i think if & when it happens, we dont choose. God just does it & at some point we/they reconcile with whatever purpose He has for doing it. but i cant say what that would always be for. so i dont know either. LOL

The dream thing is interesting. I'd never think to try to not dream. I've had control over my dreams since I was about five years old and so my conscious mind is awake when I dream. I typically, in dream, am split into two- my conscious watches my subconscious come up with ideas and play them out. If I don't like what's going on, or am bored, I just change things for my subconscious "me" that's in the dream. I experience both perspectives simultaneously normally, except in visionary dreams in which I switch to a single perspective- but they come with certain "markers" in the dream and generally a sort of OBE thing. Alternatively, when I'm inspired or have a lot of work to do, I sometimes don't dream, but rather consciously think and work on writing in my head. My body is asleep (I am typically conscious as I enter the sleeping state, unless I'm really tired), but my mind has composed poetry and worked on research papers during this time. Then I wake up and write it down in the morning. It typically needs editing, but it does use time relatively efficiently. I don't do it too often, though, because it's not really that restful. I honestly never even thought to try to stop my mind from running during sleep. I like the interesting world of dream, especially since I control my regular dreams. I love that I can fly and such in dream- gives me an opportunity to do stuff that isn't possible in physical reality.

i think rebirth & reincarnation is two different things. a rebirth (born again) to me is when we are born of spirit of God & adopted forever into the body of Christ.
i do believe in dreams & visions & there is a purpose & answers come through them.
i have never been able to control a dream, but answers have come & i have been able to wake up, & go back to sleep & finish a dream. other times i will have forgotten it, then later it comes back to memory bringing up many wonderings & feelings. one dream i remember well, took me into the midst of 3 of the apostles & a short discussion with them concerning a conflict in understanding. i asked God for understanding & i believe this was his way of showing me & confirming.

i also have been able to fly in dreams & i like that a lot.

As for what Thomas was discussing, I found it quite interesting, because I've never had a problem thinking all of nature, including my own body, as very good and possessing the immanence of God, even though I strongly feel my spirit/soul is separate and will move on. It isn't "just" a vessel, and certainly isn't evil. It is a temple of God in which I currently dwell, and I'm grateful for the opportunity of learning it provides. What is fascinating to me is that in much of mainstream Christianity (at least in the States these days), there is the belief in the resurrection and yet also the belief that nature and the human body is bad or evil, fallen from grace. Whereas in Druidry, lots of people believe only in reincarnation and yet see nature and the human body as good and of divine origin, a gift from the the god(s). I guess I'm of the Celtic Christian variety (early), that felt the immanence of divinity in all creation. That "breath of life" that animates us imbues us all with the divine spark and makes all of reality, spiritual and physical, entwined and good at heart (though often clouded by wrongdoing). The grace of Christ, instead of imparting to us the first spark of goodness, awakens the goodness that already was our deepest nature... and like a lighthouse parts the fog to guide ships home, parts the darkness of our wrongdoing and sinful choices, leading us back to the light deep within us and thus to our Creator.

i think it can go either way. good or evil. i think there are 3 influences. our own natural influence
that says, set the alarm & go to work.
another that says, be lazy & steal the bacon, you wont get caught.
another that says, you have done well, pay for the bacon & share it.

people are influenced & we can do the same thing to each other through these 3 influences, one is of our own, the other two are from two distinct outside sources, in my belief.

i dont lean in any direction of the established faiths in Christianity or other religions that started after the apostles & stick real close word for word the way it went down in the book of Acts. this was the first of the church, not the History of the religions that came after it.

as for nature, i think this is something different also. it is only in the last 5 years i have become one with nature & the creator that way. something unexplainable, but real & i believe God is in it. Like a live vibration that runs from what i touch that comes from the ground through my feet, hands & body-kind of like electricity, but soothing.
i see these things as evidence because of my faith & accept it as a blessing & dont try to add to it or make it happen again.

But i also feel it is seperate from the experience of being filled with the promise of Holy Ghost & the shekinah glory that makes us one in essence with God & nothing material in between. & this is what we want to seek after & stay close to. this is what lets nothing seperate us from Him & from His love.

 

[celtic_christian]

hmmm..... intriguing, especially the John the Baptist/Elijah and the sins of the blind man observations.

 

[path_of_one]

I believe you. I think something like dejavu or some kind of vision, maybe being caught away in spirit is more what i am seeing with some of this, for me anyway.

Thanks. I know lots of people would just think I'm nuts, so it's only in a web forum or with the closest of friends that I would discuss such experiences. I thought of them very much like the visions I experience from God for years, except they "felt" different. They just weren't the same as the ones where I just know it's right-here-right-now a message, you know? There was a series of odd events that eventually led me to some startling conclusions, including that these seemed to actually be memories of past lives.

But I also think God chooses what to give me and what not for a reason. I'm learning lessons from these things, whether or not I'm correctly interpreting them as memories, and in the end it's the lesson behind the memory/message and not the belief I build around it that I think matters. So I'm always open to interpretation. I know some people get into meditating or hypnosis or other methods to force the memories to the surface and remember more, but as tempting as it is (I'm so darn curious!), I feel that it is not right. I feel very strongly, actually, that the Spirit has told me not to probe too deeply on my own into my own soul. I am supposed to remain focused on God, and if I remain steadfastly looking to Him, then I won't receive anything I can't handle with His help, or anything that serves no purpose.

I don't think outside of interesting conversation that it has many benefits to widely discuss this with folks, and I rarely do it except with those closest to me. I think a lot of people in our society would just be happy they get more than this one life to get with the program, and even if reincarnation does happen, wasting time is not beneficial to anyone's spiritual well-being, in my opinion. I believe it's best to live every day like it was your last and you are about to be whisked away to God- life is more joyful, passionate, and giving that way.

i see it as more in the fulness of time & we will understand it better on that side of Jordan.

Yep, me too. For now, we see as through a glass dimly, then we shall see in full.

we dont choose. God just does it & at some point we/they reconcile with whatever purpose He has for doing it.

You know, it's funny you should say that. Because I always felt, since I was very small, that there was a reason I'm here. I don't just mean created, I know we were all created to glorify God out of His boundless love for us. But I mean, a reason for me specifically to be here at this moment, in this place, in this body. If what I have are memories, I have some ideas about lessons that I am learning. But I also have always felt very much like I have a purpose here that is broader than me. I still have no clue what that is, but I feel the Spirit preparing me. I ask God all the time, but I get the distinct impression I'm not supposed to figure it out yet.

one dream i remember well, took me into the midst of 3 of the apostles & a short discussion with them concerning a conflict in understanding. i asked God for understanding & i believe this was his way of showing me & confirming.

That must have been an amazing dream. I never seem to get any information quite like that in my visions, either waking or sleeping. I just get shown things, experience things. But I'm a terrible audio learner, so maybe God is just making sure I remember things accurately later! I do feel I receive answers during prayer, and it generally feels like an inner guiding from the Spirit, an inner voice. But I've never met up with any of the saints- though in one vision-dream there was the most beautiful woman I'd ever seen. She radiated light, literally. I don't really know if she was an angel or what. I have always just focused on God, so I really didn't know how to think of her. But she knew me very, very well and was definitely somebody special and did not seem very human, really. She was definitely of God though.

i dont lean in any direction of the established faiths in Christianity or other religions that started after the apostles & stick real close word for word the way it went down in the book of Acts. this was the first of the church, not the History of the religions that came after it.

I pretty much go it alone in terms of beliefs, but recently reading literature on Celtic Christianity I realized that practically all my beliefs are encapsulated in that tradition. It was surprising, but nice to be able to refer to an established tradition of sorts. Of course, for me the foundation is the Spirit and the Word- traditions are for fellowship and helping us out, but it has to come down to God on a personal level for me.

as for nature, i think this is something different also. it is only in the last 5 years i have become one with nature & the creator that way. something unexplainable, but real & i believe God is in it. Like a live vibration that runs from what i touch that comes from the ground through my feet, hands & body-kind of like electricity, but soothing.
i see these things as evidence because of my faith & accept it as a blessing & dont try to add to it or make it happen again.

But i also feel it is seperate from the experience of being filled with the promise of Holy Ghost & the shekinah glory that makes us one in essence with God & nothing material in between. & this is what we want to seek after & stay close to. this is what lets nothing seperate us from Him & from His love.

Very interesting. Yes, I feel that too. I have always felt God very strongly in nature, and I think that's why I try to worship Him out in the wilds when I can get out there. There's just something about it. I can really feel nature glorifying God, and feel His immanence in each of His precious creations. I can also commune with those in nature, in a way- the trees, animals, even sometimes the elements. But to me, yes, it is different from being filled with the Spirit and experiencing God. Going out into nature for me is like going to church, complete with congregation of trees and wild animals. We all fellowship, and sing hymns to God in our diverse languages, and even teach one another the lessons we've learned. But beyond the church of nature, there is that personal experience of God, that personal relationship and the promise of God's eternal love... and that far surpasses anything the congregation can give.

 

[earl]

Hi path & all other folks on a path. You mentioned a phrase in your post that I often hear Chirstians use as describing their understanding of the path toward God-awareness &/or their purpose for "being here:" "to glorify God." I think I may understand what you're getting at but not sure. Do believe in the old axiom that everyone's purpose for existence involves 2 general aspects: service to self, (that is to grow in spiritual understanding) & service to others, (ultimately 1 in the same). However, I know that the more mundane notion of glorifying God-that there's some anthropomorphic Big entity that creates humans just to have us around to worship it isn't an interpretation that makes sense to me-makes "God" sound like some underdeveloped, emotionally insecure, egotistic person. My journey into Christianity is heavily influenced by my long-standing study of buddhism which continues and how I relate it to Christian mysticism as opposed to traditional Christian doctrines. I see great overlap in those 2 traditions of esotericsm-the inner meaning within the outer forms-in that both are essentially saying the journey is about discovering our ultimate ground of Being which invariably takes us beyond our confining, superficial personal identities. While some schools of buddhism make use of devotional practices they do so esoterically-that is with a nod & a wink that the devotionalism is merely a vehicle to assist us to grow in spiritual awareness-not about appeasing some spiritual entity. Perhaps this particular topic would make for an interesting new discussion thread in itself. Anyway, interested in how folks view this particular issue. Thanks & bless you all, Earl

 

[Bandit]

Thanks. I know lots of people would just think I'm nuts, so it's only in a web forum or with the closest of friends that I would discuss such experiences. I thought of them very much like the visions I experience from God for years, except they "felt" different. They just weren't the same as the ones where I just know it's right-here-right-now a message, you know? There was a series of odd events that eventually led me to some startling conclusions, including that these seemed to actually be memories of past lives.

It seems like you would remember when & who at some point. Or the memories could be for something in the future instead of memories? Would you say that most of these memories were more when you were younger?

Just one question Path, but you dont have to reply to any of this.
What is the strongest, fondest memory & when do you first remember it?

But I also think God chooses what to give me and what not for a reason. I'm learning lessons from these things, whether or not I'm correctly interpreting them as memories, and in the end it's the lesson behind the memory/message and not the belief I build around it that I think matters. So I'm always open to interpretation. I know some people get into meditating or hypnosis or other methods to force the memories to the surface and remember more, but as tempting as it is (I'm so darn curious!), I feel that it is not right. I feel very strongly, actually, that the Spirit has told me not to probe too deeply on my own into my own soul. I am supposed to remain focused on God, and if I remain steadfastly looking to Him, then I won't receive anything I can't handle with His help, or anything that serves no purpose..

I have never done hypnosis but I have done meditaiton, but mostly just on God & Jesus & heaven & things like that. I even did a little eastern thought because i came across a real neat teacher who i could relate to. but even that was not the same or held the same power & glory as when I am in prayer with the Lord & meditating just on Him.
I also agree, that we dont have to probe too deep & just accept it as confirmation &/or a blessing that we can be & have these things.
If they are to be used, He will use us when he needs to use us.

I don't think outside of interesting conversation that it has many benefits to widely discuss this with folks, and I rarely do it except with those closest to me. I think a lot of people in our society would just be happy they get more than this one life to get with the program, and even if reincarnation does happen, wasting time is not beneficial to anyone's spiritual well-being, in my opinion. I believe it's best to live every day like it was your last and you are about to be whisked away to God- life is more joyful, passionate, and giving that way..

I am the same way. Even with panarama & direct answers from Jesus, i pretty much keep that all that to myself & discuss it on occasion with someone close.
Most everyone eventually tells me to get over it & move on. That really bothered me at first, but now it is no big deal.
But it is nice once in awhile to find someone who can relate.

You know, it's funny you should say that. Because I always felt, since I was very small, that there was a reason I'm here. I don't just mean created, I know we were all created to glorify God out of His boundless love for us. But I mean, a reason for me specifically to be here at this moment, in this place, in this body. If what I have are memories, I have some ideas about lessons that I am learning. But I also have always felt very much like I have a purpose here that is broader than me. I still have no clue what that is, but I feel the Spirit preparing me. I ask God all the time, but I get the distinct impression I'm not supposed to figure it out yet.

LOL. we dont have to figure it all out. Could be that He is preparing us for His glory & to share in His glory & to live eternal in His rest. God has a purpose within the purpose in which He purposed. (i think)

That must have been an amazing dream. I never seem to get any information quite like that in my visions, either waking or sleeping. I just get shown things, experience things. But I'm a terrible audio learner, so maybe God is just making sure I remember things accurately later! I do feel I receive answers during prayer, and it generally feels like an inner guiding from the Spirit, an inner voice. But I've never met up with any of the saints- though in one vision-dream there was the most beautiful woman I'd ever seen. She radiated light, literally. I don't really know if she was an angel or what. I have always just focused on God, so I really didn't know how to think of her. But she knew me very, very well and was definitely somebody special and did not seem very human, really. She was definitely of God though.

I have been blessed & would not trade it for anything. I have seen the angels, entertained the angels unaware. I only had one dream about an angel when I was going through a real rough time toward the end of a relationship & the angel appeared in the dream as a woman. She took me by the hand & said, "I am not going to let anything happen to you."
I have had visions, that were beyond my comprehension & cannot even begin to explain. After the death of one of my best friends, he appeared to me in a vision & just stood next to me, he just stood there & then walked away, leaving me comforted knowing he was ok.
I even had an awesome vision of crossing Jordan & that one is the most special to me. There was a boat & a bridge, & I could see the people that had gone on before me, on the other side.
But I knew I had to wait before I could cross the river.

I pretty much go it alone in terms of beliefs, but recently reading literature on Celtic Christianity I realized that practically all my beliefs are encapsulated in that tradition. It was surprising, but nice to be able to refer to an established tradition of sorts. Of course, for me the foundation is the Spirit and the Word- traditions are for fellowship and helping us out, but it has to come down to God on a personal level for me.

Yah. I have looked into all the religions that came out of it too. Except eventually when we are really searching, we come to a wall with them all, where something is not right & we have to go it alone. I think that is really what God wants any way. A one on one. But I also know there are some good churches who are doing there best with what they know.
I am lucky to have been raised in a church that God broke the mold with & would not trade what I got in teaching for all the knowledge & history that all the books could hold.

Very interesting. Yes, I feel that too. I have always felt God very strongly in nature, and I think that's why I try to worship Him out in the wilds when I can get out there. There's just something about it. I can really feel nature glorifying God, and feel His immanence in each of His precious creations. I can also commune with those in nature, in a way- the trees, animals, even sometimes the elements. But to me, yes, it is different from being filled with the Spirit and experiencing God. Going out into nature for me is like going to church, complete with congregation of trees and wild animals. We all fellowship, and sing hymns to God in our diverse languages, and even teach one another the lessons we've learned. But beyond the church of nature, there is that personal experience of God, that personal relationship and the promise of God's eternal love... and that far surpasses anything the congregation can give.

well you know, it says if we wont praise him, He will have the rocks & hills cry out to praise Him. I like it all too, but not the mosquitos.
I have a thing for the sunset over the ocean or a large body of water. No two are alike. Especially when the whole day is planned around going out to meet the sunset at the end of the day & I see His splendor & mighty works.

 

[earl]

Boy the tough mind bending questions: why are we here? What is creation and the creation process? I don't propose to know and am no doubt more clueless than many here. Buddhist cosmology/explanation for dependent origination only feels like a partial truth to me as to how/why creation happens, though the part that feels right is to put it in "nnew age" parlance, we come around due to "unfinished business." I'm OK though with pieces of Truth as I don't think it's possible at least on this side of the veil to ever have more than pieces of Truth. But since I opened my trap on the subject of "glorifying God," thought I should at least share where i'm coming from. In Tibetan Buddhism there's a single word exclamation one might give when experiencing the ineffable wonder and amazement of seeing a deeper, truer, Reality which lifts one out of the mundane daily confines of our conventional reality: emaho. Seems to me it's the 1 word Tibetan equivalent expression to the similarly moved Christian who in that moment might utter,"glory be to God!" Part of "glorifying God" to me is just this natural response to being moved/transported out of one's typical self. The only emaho moments I've had thusfar, though, is the wonder and amazement that my wife has put up with me for 20+ years Fortunately, I occasionally have contnented m oments of knowing that beyond and beneath all the surface drama, all is well. The other side of "glorifying God" I think is the other half of that servoce to self/service to others thing I mentioned earlier here. think the more spiritually open we are, the more an innate spiritually-based compassion emerges through us and from us (source ultimately elsewhwere?). When we act in such a way we can become sources of benefit ot others and just as I can say "glory be to God" for God's gift of my wife in my life and in that sense her very being glorifies God, so, too, may we all become conduits for the glory of God sharing at least moments of Truth, Goodness, and Beauty. That to me is the "worship" God and Christ are looking for.
Bless you all, Earl

 

[path_of_one]

I often hear Chirstians use as describing their understanding of the path toward God-awareness &/or their purpose for "being here:" "to glorify God." I think I may understand what you're getting at but not sure. Do believe in the old axiom that everyone's purpose for existence involves 2 general aspects: service to self, (that is to grow in spiritual understanding) & service to others, (ultimately 1 in the same). However, I know that the more mundane notion of glorifying God-that there's some anthropomorphic Big entity that creates humans just to have us around to worship it isn't an interpretation that makes sense to me-makes "God" sound like some underdeveloped, emotionally insecure, egotistic person.

Hey, earl! Sorry it took me a while to respond- I was out of town for a couple days.

I believe that glorifying God is recognizing and honoring the divine light within ourselves, becoming our deepest self, which is also our self that is connected to God. And in that spiritual development, we necessarily come to a place of compassion and loving-kindness within ourselves, as a result of God's grace within us, and thus long to be of service to others. In those processes, yes, there is the glory of God. I believe nature glorifies God because, unlike humanity, it is what it was created to be- it is its deepest, core self. My dogs are what God created them to be, and in being so, they are glorifying God. I am striving to get to that place within myself. I also believe that in humanity, when we ultimately get to that place in ourselves in which we come closer and closer to God, we see Him more and more in everyday life. We wake up with Him in our hearts, thank Him for little things all day long, recognize the divinity in every person we meet, every flower we see, and in our own self. We come closer to an ever-present awareness of God immanent in everything He created.

 

[path_of_one]

Bandit--

Not ignoring you- I'll try to get to this later. It's time for church, so I'll get back to ya later!

 

[Bandit]

Bandit--

Not ignoring you- I'll try to get to this later. It's time for church, so I'll get back to ya later!

its all cool Path. i am in no hurry to be reincarnated. LOL
I am pray church was good.