How does it hang together?

[Saltmeister]

It seems I have the wrong idea on the meaning of worship. I get that impression from both your and Saltmeister's posts. That is two people telling me I'm wrong. I take that very seriously.

Sorry if you're offended. I used the word "devotion" rather than "worship" to describe focus on a particular concept. Additionally, I meant some kind of "inheritance" relationship. Ancestors also leave behind a "legacy." Jesus had a legacy, which is what we live for. We do honour that legacy, but not in the same way we honour and admire a basketball player like Michael Jordan or tennis player Andre Agassi for their talents.

Worship, I think is when we honour someone for something we can't inherit. That's perhaps why some Christians won't "worship" Jesus. They believe there is something from Jesus that we can inherit: his attitude. Jesus wasn't a rule-follower. If we adopt a non-rule-follower attitude, and if God accepted Jesus on the basis that his non-rule-follower attitude was honourable, He would accept us too. Just as Abraham is the spiritual ancestor of those whom God accepts through faith, Jesus is the spiritual ancestor of those who aren't rule-followers. I guess that's what makes one a Christian: we become Christians by being spiritual descendents of Jesus.

One thing I would like to know is why you don't put Jesus Christ on a pedestal and worship him? My Christian parents and religious instructors indicated that this was the proper way to do things. In the Christian communities with which I am familiar, it seems the following terms all mean more or less the same: worship, devotion, praise, honour, glorify, revere.

All of these things were considered to be to the honour and glory of God and His Son Jesus Christ. And there was always an emphasis on emulating Jesus, not only in church but in our everyday life. So this community believed in worshiping and emulating Jesus Christ.

I was taught to worship Jesus, but it isn't enforced at church. It was just part of the hymns in Sunday School. Now that I'm grown up I don't have to do what I was taught as a child. BTW, I still attend the same congregation I did as a kid.

Do I worship Jesus anyway? I can't exactly answer that for myself. You could say that in some ways I do worship Jesus (that he was sinless and I can never be perfect), while in other ways, I don't worship Jesus (that he had a non-rule-follower attitude that I can adopt so God will accept me the same way God accepted him).

So the answer is yes and no.

Whether I worship Jesus doesn't matter. I can reinforce the idea that Jesus is my personal Messiah both ways. If I don't worship him, it's because I have chosen to become his spiritual descendent. To those who worship him, I say "So do I!" and to those who don't worship him, I say "Nor do I!" To me it makes no difference. I can worship him as God and at the same time honour him as spiritual ancestor (without worshipping him) for the legacy he's left behind. He's my personal Messiah either way. I reckon if a Christian is confused about this, let's say the personal Messiah concept should take precedence over the concept of worship. As long as your Messiah concept is reinforced, it doesn't matter if you worship him or not.

If we start making rules on whether to worship or to not worship we may condemn someone without realising that they were merely taking an alternative, but nonetheless legitimate approach to the same sentiment/goal. The agenda is the same but the approach and methods are different.

Concerning worship and devotion: My intention wasn't to tell you off for being "wrong" but just to let you know I was being misunderstood. I was afraid you might have thought my ancestor idea was a bit . . . nerdy? Geekish?

 

[Saltmeister]

You are not the problem (but then again you are part of...). Such is Human life and interaction. Brian encourages such, to a point.

Your post stays.

So does yours, Ruby.

v/r

Q

Sorry, Aletheia, that wasn't your fault.

I brought up Wicca, not to discuss its teachings, but the way many other religions have functioned well without conflicts, controversies and other problems. I was skimming the surface there, not getting too deep.

That was in response to the question "how does it hang together" which Ruby asked me before. Could there possibly be an approach we could have that might improve connectedness between Christian communities, as opposed to the bickering, factions, divisiveness? I brought up religions like Wicca, Buddhism, Falun Gong and New Age, briefly discussing their approaches. Within that post I made sure I answered the question "how does it hang together" so that I wouldn't be straying too much from the topic even though I mentioned other religions.

Hopefully I haven't over-stepped the bounds of what Brian encouraged but at the same time wouldn't permit to go unchecked.

Perhaps the number one mistake in Christianity is to assume that one approach to the faith must work for all people, even though it works for us. It's to presume that there's a model that fits all sizes. But since God created us all to be different, we must all have different approaches to Christianity. That's perhaps what Romans 14:1-12 is trying to say.

 

[iBrian]

"Worship" seems such an integral part of Christian culture and belief - I would be surprised if mainstream Christians in the UK were to deny that they worship God and Jesus.

 

[RubySera_Martin]

AlethiaRivers, Saltmeister, and Brian, thank you for clearing things up for me. I was not offended so much as I was confused. Saltmeister, I like the way you explain things. You analyze things in a different way than I have yet been exposed to. Like Q says, I am somewhat doubtful where I stand on the Christian question.

My experience of Christianity has been extremely negative. As I encounter Christians with a more tolerant view and understanding of the Bible and our relationship to God and Jesus I find myself feeling more sympathetic. I read Rom. 14 as Saltmeister suggested. In combo with your post, it felt like perhaps there is room inside Christianity for me because the ethics Paul lists in that chapter are exactly what I try to live by on a daily basis.

I am a lot like you, I think. I am NOT a rule follower, and I think I do honour the legacy of Jesus quite highly because I use it as a standard against which to measure and understand my own life. My only remaining confusion around Jesus is exactly what is meant by him being the Messiah, but maybe that belongs in a different thread.

Often I don't know exactly what motivates my questions. There is just a need to explore the many different ideas and to discuss them with others. When talking with a Christian like you I am inclined to think I am a Christian. But when talking with some other religions like Neo-Pagans or Deists or Agnostics I am inclined to think I am like them. So I understand your yes-no answer.

I am probably what is normally called a seeker, and there seems to be many parts of the various religions that I identify with. Thus, I appreciate being allowed to post my questions about Christian theology and practice on the Christianity forum where the people are who are best qualified answer them.

Ruby

 

[AletheiaRivers]

Sorry, Aletheia, that wasn't your fault.

No need to apologize Saltmeister. I understood your point. You stayed within the boundaries of the rules (imo). I'm the one that dragged the thread sideways (because I thought it was in the Belief section).

 

[AletheiaRivers]

Like Q says, I am somewhat doubtful where I stand on the Christian question.

You have a kindred spirit in me Ruby. I'm desperately trying to hang on to Christianity as a path and Christ as Lord and inspiration. It's tough.

It's ironic that I posted what I did about Wicca needing boundaries to define it, as Christianity needs boundaries to define it, because my view of Christ is so far outside the boundaries of today's Christianity that it is viewed by many as not Christian at all.

My only remaining confusion around Jesus is exactly what is meant by him being the Messiah, but maybe that belongs in a different thread.

It would be great if you'd start one, as long as Brian and Q are willing to allow outside the box opinions. Otherwise, you might put it in the Beliefs section.

 

[flowperson]

You have a kindred spirit in me Ruby. I'm desperately trying to hang on to Christianity as a path and Christ as Lord and inspiration. It's tough.

It's ironic that I posted what I did about Wicca needing boundaries to define it, as Christianity needs boundaries to define it, because my view of Christ is so far outside the boundaries of today's Christianity that it is viewed by many as not Christian at all.



It would be great if you'd start one, as long as Brian and Q are willing to allow outside the box opinions. Otherwise, you might put it in the Beliefs section.

No one ever said any of this would be easy. In fact "the man" himself said it would be hard. That's probably because of the eternal nature of the holy spirit which rules the past and the future, and we are ALL subject to it.

flow....

 

[RubySera_Martin]

You have a kindred spirit in me Ruby. I'm desperately trying to hang on to Christianity as a path and Christ as Lord and inspiration. It's tough.

I've been looking at the 8 Point Study Guide (pdf format) on The Center for Progressive Christianity for which you sent me the address on pm. It explains each point and then asks four or five questions on living out that point. I went through the whole thing and I feel hopeful again.

It's ironic that I posted what I did about Wicca needing boundaries to define it, as Christianity needs boundaries to define it, because my view of Christ is so far outside the boundaries of today's Christianity that it is viewed by many as not Christian at all.

I think one boundary for Christianity is that if we use the Jesus story to make sense of our lives and gain hope and serenity to face life in all its harsh realities then we are Christians. We are using the Christian version of "meaning of life" questions. We are applying the Jesus story to a 21st century context and mindset. When we use distinct Buddhist ideas or ideas from other established belief systems to supplement Christian beliefs, perhaps that is crossing the boundary over into other beliefs. But to find a form of Christian thought to correspond to the present-day Western human situation does not seem to me like crossing outside the boundaries of Christianity.

That we reject a 19th-century view of the Bible and God seems quite in line with the reality of life. We cannot pretend that the Enlightenment did not happen. We can never turn the clock back to before we realized it was a crime to kill off the Jews, to before we knew about the concrete evidence for evolution theory, to before we had the power to annihilate the planet by human power (atomic bomb), to before we understood that humanity was not on one direct road of social progress. In other words, the twentieth century via its unequalled and bitterest bloodiest wars and with its unequaled scientific and technological advancement has has taught us things the 19th century theologians; clergy, and laypeople could not know. It is not possible to hold onto a Christianity that seemed just fine for conservative Christians then. I am living proof of that.

It is true that there are many fundamentalists and conservative Christians who try to prove that we can live as though all these things did not happen. But they are only creating an illusion of security with solid answers. The answers they preach don't hold water when the real test comes. Illusion may carry some people through emotional trauma (and therevy convince them that it still works) but sometimes it breaks through to harshest reality. No absolute answers and easy faith solutions can meet that need. That is why we have so many ex-Christians today. Reality broke through the illusion. For this reason humans NEED a re-interpretation of the Jesus story like is being done by Progressive Christians. Some people do not accept those beliefs as Christian but it is probably the most effective application of the Jesus story to the 21st century West.

It would be great if you'd start one, as long as Brian and Q are willing to allow outside the box opinions. Otherwise, you might put it in the Beliefs section.

I did and I think I saw you there. For those who haven't seen it and are interested, the title is "Who is Jesus?" on the Christianity forum. It never occurred to me not to put a purely Christian question like this on the Christianity forum.

Sorry if I am treading on some toes here. These conclusions have come through the test of fire and were beaten into shape on the anvil of harsh human reality across many decades of earnest and sincere seeking by tens of thousands of people.