Consciousness?

Dr Free, that was a truly excellent post from ontological naturalism. I tend to agree with you.

flowperson said:
It was thoroughly reviled by conservative science, which told me there was probably some truth in what was revealed in the book.

Oh, please...

This specific book aside (which I haven't read and have no opinion on), pseudoscience is reviled because it is pseudoscience, not because there is some truth to it. That is reason enough.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
Oh Please...Copernicus', Newton's and Galileo's findings were viewed as "psuedoscience" until the light dawned upon the naysayers. The passage of time always proves the truth or falsehood of new ideas, not the verbal flagellations inflicted by those who fear and loath meaningful changes. That's the way that "real" science works.

flow....:cool:
 
Gee, I always thought "science" was experiment, observe the results, repeat the experiment, and observe if the results were the same as before...:eek:
 
Quahom1 said:
Gee, I always thought "science" was experiment, observe the results, repeat the experiment, and observe if the results were the same as before...:eek:

You're right to an extent, but before experimentation is undertaken to prove another's findings true or false, there are original theories which are sometimes proposed that have the ability to cause massive and ongoing paradigm shifts in the work of the experimenters, which may totally change the focus of entire fields of scientific progress over time. In the last century you could classify the theorizations of Einstein, Heizenberg, and Bohr in this category, IMHO.

flow....;)
 
What about the fact that the act of observation itself changes conditions, and influences the experiment? ;)

What about the insight, shared and confirmed by all of us, that as objective as this concrete, physical world appears to be, we all still experience it somewhat differently? That consciousness itself is subjective?

You know, two people can agree that `blue' is a certain range of light wavelengths on the visible spectrum, yet there is a different "feel" associated with that color, depending on who you ask, their various associations, and even their mood & time of day? Oh, come back later, I'm feeling blue right now. Don't disturb me, man, I've got the blues ... and I'm listening to BB King here. Or you know, just say the word, and notice that one person thinks of the sky (`Carolina' blue around here), while another thinks of deep, navy blue, and a third person calls to mind `true' blue! :)

Esotericists, such as myself, maintain that all of color as we know it is but a dim, pale, shadowy reflection of something vastly more beautiful, existing in the spiritual worlds. Nevertheless, a correlation exists, and blue in the visible spectrum does NOT match up arbitrarily with say, yellow, in the "spiritual" spectrum. No, gee, it just happens to correspond with BLUE. :rolleyes:

But how would I begin to go about describing these `spiritual' or deeper, richer colors? If I said, "oh, they're so much richer, more wonderful, almost metallic & shiny, or shimmery - yet so obviously ALIVE .... truly LIVING substance," what sense would that make to the hard-nosed skeptic, the man of science who swears, lives and dies by ONLY what his 5 known senses can show & confirm for him?

What do we make of two people, standing side by side, who can both look at the same tree, and describe its very being and presence in utterly different language? The one is cold, detached, and purely visual, while the other is more vibrant, and full of feeling! Is the first description inaccurate, or inferior to the first? No. Is the second description any less helpful or realistic than the first? No.

My point is that if you add a third, then a fourth person, a fifth person, and so on to this picture, each person will behold the tree slightly differently - evidenced in their description. You would say that the scientific bunch among these people would stick to "the facts" - to purely physical characteristics, yes? And what about the ones who are more "touchy-feely?" The poets of the group. Are their descriptions less valid, less meaningful or helpful? I think you will find, Mr. Science, that among the poetic lot, there will be MUCH that they can agree on, quite readily. And while different associations may come to mind, they all know that they are perceiving the same tree, and that, if engaged in dialogue, they are also weaving together an understanding of that tree, equally valid as the scientific observation, classification and understanding - yet organized according to different principles, rules, or classification methodologies. Nevertheless, ORDER exists in their systemitization.

But let's reach beyond, and admit to this group of onlookers a few genuine clairvoyants. Let's take a few people who can all partake, even if in varying degrees, of the supra-physical wavelengths of light - perceiving the ultra-violet in the very least, and perhaps utterly beyond ... into the emotional and mental/intellectual, even spiritual, wavelengths of LIGHT. Just as you and I, the scientific or the poetic lot, these clairvoyants can SEE the tree, yet their refined and trained SENSES (physical and supra-physical) are able to gather MORE DATA. I would submit that, IF these clairvoyants apply the scientific method to their observations, discussions, and classifications/systemitizations, they can and will arrive at something utterly unlike pseudo-science. It will be SCIENCE plain and simple, and a noble one, which already has an established body of researchers, publishers, experimenters, and adherents.

Research into mediumship and/or the nature of life after death has proceeded in this way. So also research into all the many fields of supra-physical consciousness, as well as the subtler aspects of physical consciousness and activity itself. Even LIFE Itself, as something subtler still but no less objective, has been observed, catalogued & classified, and submitted to all the rigours of science - just as the form, or mechanism, and its subtler component, consciousness. Thus at the moment of death, many individuals can literally SEE the subtler counterpart(s) of the physical person ... separating from and leaving the inert body behind. And this is far more common than some might think.

But yes, the hard-nosed skeptic will have none of it. Just as, equally, a man of certain religious opinion will maintain his beliefs no matter what his objective observations seem to indicate to the contrary. Both will rationalize and explain everything away, as suits the moment. ;)

But Consciousness Itself, the Soul resident within {every} person, the One Who Observes ... always does so without qualification or conditioning. It is the layer upon layer of the human mind, the filters of fears & expectation of human emotion, and the limitations & varying abilities of the human brain itself - which ADD TO or, more accurately, LIMIT, what reaches our wordly awareness ... until the latter is FREED (through discipline, training, purification & expansion), and restored to its pristine, original state. But even this is a bit of a conundrum, a chicken & the egg type of question. The Platonists, at least, have got a leg up, inasmuch as they ask, "Did the Soul exist prior to physical birth?" Oh, but did it ever!

Namaskar,

taijasi
 
flowperson said:
Oh Please...Copernicus', Newton's and Galileo's findings were viewed as "psuedoscience" until the light dawned upon the naysayers.

No, those findings were not. They were considered contrary to church dogma, which had become fixated on Aristotle's views (which were quite brilliant for his day).

The problem with pseudoscience is that it's not using scientific method, and yet making "scientific" claims. Its truth or falsity is not the issue.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
Marietta said:
All that exists is consciousness/energy and the body is merely consciousness expressing itself. Matter is merely a holographic projection of our thoughts. Each dimension is created by the consciousness stationed on dimensional band above it.

Namaste Marietta,

thank you for the post.

this particular view, by and large, is known as Yogachara or Mind Only in the Buddhist tradition and is one of the philosophical schools within the overall Buddhist paradigm.

metta,

~v
 
Eudaimonist said:
No, those findings were not. They were considered contrary to church dogma, which had become fixated on Aristotle's views (which were quite brilliant for his day).

The problem with pseudoscience is that it's not using scientific method, and yet making "scientific" claims. Its truth or falsity is not the issue.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Mark:
But in Europe in those times the Church controlled EVERYTHING. Scientific methodology was virtually unknown until these people and others like them came along and created scientific methods, which were, in large part, adaptations of/to the rituals of Alchemists. (If you don't believe me read the Science Times front page in last tuesday's NYTimes.) The Church opposed anything that had the possibility of altering its world view and hence control, whether it was based upon the musings of Aristotle or not, or whether it was scientifically correct or not.

I submit that if the word "pseudoscience" existed in the middle ages, the church would have probably used it to describe the work of these people. Aristotle was correct, and then these people became "correct" over time. By the way, the Church didn't apologise to Galileo for its actions until just a few years ago. And of course the Church these days, to its great credit, fully participates in the pursuit and dissemination of new scientific knowledge.

The term "pseudoscience is pretty much a 20th century slang term to describe "pie in the sky by and by" theories which are unproven through rigorous testing and replication of results by others. I submit again that proposed theories are not accepted until they are proven through the scientific methods of testing and replication. But original insights are just that. They start new and original threads of scientific understanding which have not yet been examined under the scientific method. And until they are, they are simply plausible and untested theories. But they still possess the possibility of causing paradigm shifts in scientific understanding in the future if and when they are proven.

flow....:cool:
 
The physical, mental and spiritual are in consciousness so are consciousness, when they are transparent we see clearly the unity of one ocean of pure consciousness. When not transparent we see images separate and not in unity. To do this we must slow down the destructive pace of modern life so we can get a solitary glimpse of the inner life of consciousness and the awesome power of clear thought. I feel this one conscousness or pure consciousness is an infinite ocean, but in it is the finite water or ice; thus, we have the word infinite, (in-the-finite). Pure transparent consciousness is in the unit and the ocean. The physical consciousness, mental consciousness ect of everything including inanimate objects are in this one consciousness. Ice in the ocean both made of H2O, this is the science part. The Christian part would be Jesus said, "I and the Father are one." One pure consciousness.

http://thinkunity.com
 
What is the proof of pie in the sky philosophy? Experience.............

Experience the state above the mind, above the arguement and if not experienced don't believe it. The arguement is only to quiet the mind, answer pseudo questions, the direct experience is all that matters. Enjoy........
 
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