What is Christianity, Who is Jesus?

RubySera_Martin

Well-Known Member
Messages
439
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
The Golden Triangle, Ontario
Re: The Trinity of Christianity

Quahom1 said:
Actually, if you look at the collective of my posts the past three years, you might find, I'd be the "sheriff" who tried to stop the burning of a wise and inquisitive man. My only "beef" with "him" personally, would be his penchant for "humanism", but I'm certain I would have gotten over it (I seem to do so now...). :rolleyes: ;)

v/r

Q

What's your problem with humanism? I think Jesus was a humanist if ever there was one. I'm talking about what is sometimes referred to as secular humanism where it is believed (proven by psychology I would say) that nurturing the soul or self makes a stronger person to stand the wear and tear of life. What Jesus teaches seems to be the end results of humanism. Maybe this requires a separate thread???
 
Re: The Trinity of Christianity

RubySera_Martin said:
What's your problem with humanism? I think Jesus was a humanist if ever there was one. I'm talking about what is sometimes referred to as secular humanism where it is believed (proven by psychology I would say) that nurturing the soul or self makes a stronger person to stand the wear and tear of life. What Jesus teaches seems to be the end results of humanism. Maybe this requires a separate thread???

No, He wasn't Ruby. There was nothing "self" about Jesus. Nothing about self, makes self stronger (not in the classical Christian thought). Strength is drawn from the relationship with God, with Jesus in Christian terms. Yes a human has strength, but nothing compared to what is available and waiting for man. However, this has nothing really to do with the Trinity of Christianity, does it? :eek:

v/r

Q
 
Re: The Trinity of Christianity

RubySera_Martin said:
...What Jesus teaches seems to be the end results of humanism. Maybe this requires a separate thread???

I suppose one could be started, in the Liberal Christianity Forum, or in the Belief and Spirituality main Forum, or even Comparitive Studies Forum as this does sound like an interesting study on the teachings of Christ...:eek:

v/r

Q
 
Re: The Trinity of Christianity

Quahom1 said:
Actually, if you look at the collective of my posts the past three years, you might find, I'd be the "sheriff" who tried to stop the burning of a wise and inquisitive man. My only "beef" with "him" personally, would be his penchant for "humanism", but I'm certain I would have gotten over it (I seem to do so now...). :rolleyes: ;)
v/r
Q

Humanism, as I understand it (which is probably very little) has more to do with the source of our beliefs, than the beliefs themselves ... at least as far as "our neighbour" is concerned: rationality v. revelation.

My impression, on reading the bio on Servetus, was that he relied very much on Scripture as divinely revealed truth, and even used some of the church fathers, especially Irenaeus, to support his teaching on the Trinity. Perhaps you meant something else ... :confused:
 
Re: The Trinity of Christianity

kenod said:
Humanism, as I understand it (which is probably very little) has more to do with the source of our beliefs, than the beliefs themselves ... at least as far as "our neighbour" is concerned: rationality v. revelation.

My impression, on reading the bio on Servetus, was that he relied very much on Scripture as divinely revealed truth, and even used some of the church fathers, especially Irenaeus, to support his teaching on the Trinity. Perhaps you meant something else ... :confused:

What you've pointed out my friend is the contradiction of terms.

The true Humanist has only one God...himself. There is no room for the supernatural, there is no tolerance for a "being" that determines what will be for an individual, save for the individual themself. To a Humanist, "God" is dead, long live the new god...

Morality, indeed salvation of the soul, is up to the individual soul.

"Humanism entails a commitment to the search for truth and morality through human means in support of human interests. In focusing on the capacity for self-determination, humanism rejects transcendental justifications, such as a dependence on faith, the supernatural, or divinely revealed texts. Humanists endorse universal morality based on the commonality of human nature, suggesting that solutions to our social and cultural problems cannot be parochial."

In short, there is no room for God, because man considers himself to be God. In one way man who believes in this form of religion, is worse than Lucifer. At least Lucifer knew there was God, and he aspired to be equal to that God. Humanism states that man is God, and nothing is above or equal to himself.

v/r

Q
 
Re: The Trinity of Christianity

Quahom1 said:
The true Humanist has only one God...himself. There is no room for the supernatural, there is no tolerance for a "being" that determines what will be for an individual, save for the individual themself. To a Humanist, "God" is dead, long live the new god...

Here you can see other ideas on the topic, plus references to more information.

I believe humanism and Christianity fit together perfectly, but I know that many conservative Christians say I'm flat-out wrong. In my mind, there is very little difference between the ethos of humanism and of humane. It just means being decent and respectful of all life, including humanity. I believe God can help one do this, as also can Jesus.
 
Re: The Trinity of Christianity

This post is in response to questions Cyberpi raised about the Trinity on the thread "is the Bible corrupted." I apologize for not having read the entire thread. Just didn't think I should start a new thread on this topic because it looks like it addresses the same questions.

Cyberpi, regarding your questions around Jesus and God being one and the same. Let's look at some variations:

a) Jesus is God.
b) Jesus and God are one.
c) Jesus is the same as God.

In my mind, B is the only correct statement. I don't think I came across A before I was on the internet and interacted with Christians from other parts of the world. (FYI, I am in Ontario. That little triangle of land between the Great Lakes.) The first statement seems to me like idolatry because it makes the Son into the Supreme God.

I was raised with the idea that each of the Three Persons of the Godhead have their own specific roles in the life of the church and in relationship to the individual Christian, and that they are ranked from highest authority to lesser authority in this order: Father, Son, Holy Ghost.

d) Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one.
e) Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are the same.
f) Father, Son, and Holy Ghost make up/constitute the godhead.

In this set of statements, I consider E to be the only incorrect statement. As stated, each has a specific role but they operate in unison for the same goals i.e. the salvation of humanity in this life and beyond. I may be the only person on the face of the earth and in all of history to hold to these specific ideas but I think my mother taught me to think of it like this.


Cyberpi, if after reading this thread you still don't understand, maybe we can try it again.
 
Re: The Trinity of Christianity

Quahom1 said:
"Humanism entails a commitment to the search for truth and morality through human means in support of human interests. In focusing on the capacity for self-determination, humanism rejects transcendental justifications, such as a dependence on faith, the supernatural, or divinely revealed texts. Humanists endorse universal morality based on the commonality of human nature, suggesting that solutions to our social and cultural problems cannot be parochial."

Uh oh, now I can see why I don't do too well over in the CS forum :rolleyes:
 
Re: The Trinity of Christianity

RubySera_Martin said:
I don't know my history well enough to answer your question. I am sure if you read up on Christian Church History you can find the answer. What you post is quite normal for non-Trinitarians to think. It's basically making fun of beliefs one does not understand or accept.
If the author was someone other than God (swt) or Christ (pbuh), then I do NOT consider it Christianity. For me, Christianity means the teaching from Jesus Christ (pbuh). What does it mean to you? Church history reveals the mistakes of men and I read that it's teaching has often been 180 degrees away from Christ (pbuh). I may not be a good Christian by the majority, nor a good Muslim, but I will pray in a mosque on Friday and attend church on Sunday. Do you know many who will? What church do you attend? I was baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit... albeit with a sprinkle and not the dunk. My children were baptized. Yet, I can easily reject the Trinity as commonly expressed. So if you know what I understand and accept, is that by my post alone?

You know what I find truly sad? There is no open confession of sin at the baptisms in the churches that I have seen, as described in Matthew 3:6 and Mark 1:5. It scares away the masses. Why? Do you know a church that combines confession of sins and baptism? I see that confession and repentance is the most important part. Don't you? At least the RC has confession somewhere, albeit wrongly hidden away in a dark and secretive closet. Can you show me where in the bible it teaches to confess a sin in a closet?

If I may combine with your other comment that I did not reply to:
http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/the-return-of-an-unfamiliar-183-3.html
RubySera_Martin said:
Cyberpi, it sounds like you are unfamiliar with the Christian mindset. Saltmeister says "in my view," so I think these are Saltmeister's own views on the matter. I think a Christian posting personal views on a public forum does not constitute "teaching." If this Christian posts the same view on many different forums over a long period of time it would be understood as a "teaching." NOTE: I am referring to them as "a veiw" or "ideas," rather than "beliefs" because I suspect that is what they are.

But a first and only post of a particular idea is not considered a "teaching." Of course, I have not been following Saltmeister so I don't know if these views have been repeatedly posted around the internet, but the way they are stated makes me believe this is the first time Saltmeister posted these ideas.

There is one other way in which I don't think these views can be taken as a "teaching." The purpose of the thread, so far as I understand it, is to brainstorm on what the second coming might be like, whether or not it has already happened, etc. My understanding of brain-storming sessions is that anyone is allowed--encouraged--to put forth any idea that occurs without having to prove or support the idea.

Perhaps this is alien to a Muslim's way of thinking but from my observation it is normal, acceptable, and quite in line with regular Christian mental operations.
As far as I know, everyone can learn by reading, brain-storming, imagination, and making mistakes. But Christianity is by definition NOT defined by brain-storms or imagination. Christianity is defined by God (swt) and Jesus Christ (pbuh). Agreed?
 
Re: The Trinity of Christianity

cyberpi said:
Christianity is defined by God (swt) and Jesus Christ (pbuh). Agreed?

Actually I think that Christianity is defined by human experience of God, remembrance and worship of God, participation in God, and reasoning about God.

2 c,
lunamoth
 
Re: The Trinity of Christianity

Cyberpi, I don't think I can provide answers that satisfy you. I am not a committed Christian but I was raised in the church and know a lot about Christianity. I don't think you get to define Christianity for the entire world; whether or not to identify as a Christian is a personal choice. Whether or not to acknowledge others as Christians who identify as Christians is also a personal choice. But be aware that you might be unfriendly responses if you call people by a different label that they don't like.
 
Re: The Trinity of Christianity

RubySera_Martin said:
Here you can see other ideas on the topic, plus references to more information.

I believe humanism and Christianity fit together perfectly, but I know that many conservative Christians say I'm flat-out wrong. In my mind, there is very little difference between the ethos of humanism and of humane. It just means being decent and respectful of all life, including humanity. I believe God can help one do this, as also can Jesus.

I understand your belief on this issue, however it doesn't work in this particular thread, and has little to do with the origin of this thread which is The Trinity of Christianity. The there is no room for another "god" next to the existing Trinitarian concept of God.

That God helps them who help themselves, is without question (in my opinion). However the rest of the Humanistic philosophy contradicts the basics of Christianity. It takes Christ's divinity right out of the picture.

v/r

Q
 
Re: The Trinity of Christianity

lunamoth said:
Actually I think that Christianity is defined by human experience of God, remembrance and worship of God, participation in God, and reasoning about God.

2 c,
lunamoth

...which is not the same as an humanistic view of God. ;)

v/r

Q
 
Re: The Trinity of Christianity

cyberpi said:
If the author was someone other than God (swt) or Christ (pbuh), then I do NOT consider it Christianity. For me, Christianity means the teaching from Jesus Christ (pbuh). What does it mean to you? Church history reveals the mistakes of men and I read that it's teaching has often been 180 degrees away from Christ (pbuh). I may not be a good Christian by the majority, nor a good Muslim, but I will pray in a mosque on Friday and attend church on Sunday. Do you know many who will? What church do you attend? I was baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit... albeit with a sprinkle and not the dunk. My children were baptized. Yet, I can easily reject the Trinity as commonly expressed. So if you know what I understand and accept, is that by my post alone?

You know what I find truly sad? There is no open confession of sin at the baptisms in the churches that I have seen, as described in Matthew 3:6 and Mark 1:5. It scares away the masses. Why? Do you know a church that combines confession of sins and baptism? I see that confession and repentance is the most important part. Don't you? At least the RC has confession somewhere, albeit wrongly hidden away in a dark and secretive closet. Can you show me where in the bible it teaches to confess a sin in a closet?

If the sin is against a man, then the one who sinned must go and make right (if possible) with that man. That is explicit in the Bible "leave your offering at the alter and go find and make peace with the one wronged" (para).

If the sin is against God, or a man that can not be made peace with, then bring it to God, (while the priest is witness).

The problem with publically expressing one's sins (for repentence and forgivenss), is not with the sinner, but with the rest of the witnesses (the congregation), as often that became fodder for gossip.

However, every day we are to pray to God, actually unceasingly (and confess sin if required), and that includes praying in secret...that too is biblical.

v/r

Q
 
Re: The Trinity of Christianity

cyberpi said:
So please forgive me God (swt), Jesus (pbuh), and Holy Spirit for repeating what some people try to teach. I'm sure God (swt) knows that I too am guilty of trying to fabricate explanations for what some ancestors have taught. The phrase 'Trinity' is NOT in the bible, so I simply ask the Trinitarians, "Who or what authored your belief?"

I think the issue is not whether the notion of a Trinity is right or wrong, but whether it is essential and legitimate. So there are two questions here:

1. Is the Trinity essential?
2. Is the Trinity legitimate?

In my view, the Trinity is not essential. It's just an approach to our spiritual journey. I've come to think that the primary purpose of the Trinity is perhaps to conceptualise an experience of God, rather than God himself. It's just that it perhaps degraded into a quantitative, technical definition of God rather than a qualitative expression of one's experience of God. People treated it as something concrete rather than something abstract. They asked questions like whether God is three-in-one and one-in-three.

But if we think of the Trinity as just a way of expressing how one experiences God, then it's no longer a question of "is God three or one or both?" but "how does God reveal Himself to me and how do I relate to Him?" The Trinity could, perhaps, be summed up like this:

An experience of the Son is an experience of God.
An experience of the Father is an experience of God.
An experience of the Holy Spirit is an experience of God.

Was Jesus God? I think it depends how you approach that question. What exactly would I mean by "Jesus being God?" If I swapped bodies with my friend, am I my friend or is my friend me? The way I would explain that situation is that my personality is projected through my friend's body, and my friend's personality is projected through my body.

The situation with God and Jesus is certainly not body swapping, but it has to do with personality. Most of us conceptualise God as holy. Holiness is not a property one's knowledge, power and abilities, but one's personality. God's holy character gives him the moral authority and moral justification to do what he does. If Jesus had the same kind of personality, then his holy character also gave him the moral authority and justification to do what he did. It gave an honest man like Jesus the justification to criticise the religious leaders of the day for being phonies. (That's assuming Jesus was that kind of man to start with.)

However, if Jesus had the same kind of character and personality as God, being honest and accountable, seeing people as they really were, not as society judged them and treating people fairly, then could Jesus' character and personality also be seen as a demonstration of God's character and personality? Jesus didn't have to have God's knowledge, power and abilities, only his character and personality, to demonstrate what God was like.

This is where "an experience of the Son" could have been seen as "an experience of God." The titles "Son of God" and "Son of Man" are quite vague. They aren't really defined in the Bible. We only see their usage. Yet, "Son of God" and "Son of Man" could refer to a human being that demonstrates what God is like so that God can be understood by human beings. Sure, we can never know everything about God and will never be able to define Him completely, but we can at least understand Him personally.

So what, really, is the Trinity? I think of it as a mantra that we recite. A signpost that tells us where to go and how to get to our destination. It is perhaps not really a definition of God, or that "God is three," but could, possibly, have started off as "the Three Experiences of God."

Just like the idea of the "Four Corners of the Earth," the Five Elements (water, metal, earth, air and fire) and what Western Medicine calls "the Five Basic Senses" of human beings, the Trinity could be a mantra, a saying that we chant. We know the earth doesn't really have Four Corners, but we sometimes mention the Four Corners because it's ancient tradition that has sentimental value. Modern chemistry has revealed that there are more than five elements. We also know from modern physiology that the body doesn't really have five kinds of senses!!! The Five Basic Senses are really just a way of describing something we can relate to personally. Some of the senses actually overlap. Taste and smell both involve detection of chemicals (a shared sense). Taste and touch both involve discerning the shape and texture of objects, and their temperature. Sight, sound, smell, taste and touch relate to an "experience" of our environment, not the actual physiological instruments used to capture the information used to generate that experience.

The universe is a lot more complicated than the simplifications we make. Same with God. We know we can never define God. We can understand and explain what he's like, but not define Him. God gave us a mind to think in the abstract. Abstractions are concepts we use to simplify things that are more complex. Life revolves around meaning but meaning must be put in context.

The Trinity, I reckon, was never meant to be a definition of God, and was never supposed to make faith more complicated.:eek::confused: I think it's the exact opposite. We're not trying to conceptualise some grandmaster concept that advances our level of sophistication. The Trinity was probably more of a simplification:rolleyes::) (experiencing God) rather than an "advancing to the next level of complexity" concept. Because God was too complex to define, we resorted to a way of describing how the experience took place. So it's probably not really "God has three parts/Persons" but "the Three Experiences of God" mantra.

The Trinity was supposed to be a signpost, not the road itself!!! It's just an approach to faith.:D

The Trinity should not be essential, but at the same time it shouldn't be an illegal concept. The Trinity has a lot of critics, as well as a lot of proponents who insist that it be invoked. We expect to find spirituality in certain times, places, people and concepts. We expect spirituality to be systematic and rule-based. We expect to find spirituality in numbers, but yet it's not supposed to be a numbers game!!! It's supposed to be a standard way to explain something personal. In that sense, the Trinity is a legitimate concept for those who want to make it a part of their spiritual journey. I guess what we have to remember is that if it's just a mantra, there's nothing wrong with having and not having it in one's belief system.

I guess the problem only begins when we treat it as a technicality rather than a personal faith issue . . .
 
Re: The Trinity of Christianity

Saltmeister said:
I think the issue is not whether the notion of a Trinity is right or wrong, but whether it is essential and legitimate. So there are two questions here:

1. Is the Trinity essential?
2. Is the Trinity legitimate?

In my view, the Trinity is not essential. It's just an approach to our spiritual journey. I've come to think that the primary purpose of the Trinity is perhaps to conceptualise an experience of God, rather than God himself. It's just that it perhaps degraded into a quantitative, technical definition of God rather than a qualitative expression of one's experience of God. People treated it as something concrete rather than something abstract. They asked questions like whether God is three-in-one and one-in-three.

But if we think of the Trinity as just a way of expressing how one experiences God, then it's no longer a question of "is God three or one or both?" but "how does God reveal Himself to me and how do I relate to Him?" The Trinity could, perhaps, be summed up like this:

An experience of the Son is an experience of God.
An experience of the Father is an experience of God.
An experience of the Holy Spirit is an experience of God.

Was Jesus God? I think it depends how you approach that question. What exactly would I mean by "Jesus being God?" If I swapped bodies with my friend, am I my friend or is my friend me? The way I would explain that situation is that my personality is projected through my friend's body, and my friend's personality is projected through my body.

The situation with God and Jesus is certainly not body swapping, but it has to do with personality. Most of us conceptualise God as holy. Holiness is not a property one's knowledge, power and abilities, but one's personality. God's holy character gives him the moral authority and moral justification to do what he does. If Jesus had the same kind of personality, then his holy character also gave him the moral authority and justification to do what he did. It gave an honest man like Jesus the justification to criticise the religious leaders of the day for being phonies. (That's assuming Jesus was that kind of man to start with.)

However, if Jesus had the same kind of character and personality as God, being honest and accountable, seeing people as they really were, not as society judged them and treating people fairly, then could Jesus' character and personality also be seen as a demonstration of God's character and personality? Jesus didn't have to have God's knowledge, power and abilities, only his character and personality, to demonstrate what God was like.

This is where "an experience of the Son" could have been seen as "an experience of God." The titles "Son of God" and "Son of Man" are quite vague. They aren't really defined in the Bible. We only see their usage. Yet, "Son of God" and "Son of Man" could refer to a human being that demonstrates what God is like so that God can be understood by human beings. Sure, we can never know everything about God and will never be able to define Him completely, but we can at least understand Him personally.

So what, really, is the Trinity? I think of it as a mantra that we recite. A signpost that tells us where to go and how to get to our destination. It is perhaps not really a definition of God, or that "God is three," but could, possibly, have started off as "the Three Experiences of God."

Just like the idea of the "Four Corners of the Earth," the Five Elements (water, metal, earth, air and fire) and what Western Medicine calls "the Five Basic Senses" of human beings, the Trinity could be a mantra, a saying that we chant. We know the earth doesn't really have Four Corners, but we sometimes mention the Four Corners because it's ancient tradition that has sentimental value. Modern chemistry has revealed that there are more than five elements. We also know from modern physiology that the body doesn't really have five kinds of senses!!! The Five Basic Senses are really just a way of describing something we can relate to personally. Some of the senses actually overlap. Taste and smell both involve detection of chemicals (a shared sense). Taste and touch both involve discerning the shape and texture of objects, and their temperature. Sight, sound, smell, taste and touch relate to an "experience" of our environment, not the actual physiological instruments used to capture the information used to generate that experience.

The universe is a lot more complicated than the simplifications we make. Same with God. We know we can never define God. We can understand and explain what he's like, but not define Him. God gave us a mind to think in the abstract. Abstractions are concepts we use to simplify things that are more complex. Life revolves around meaning but meaning must be put in context.

The Trinity, I reckon, was never meant to be a definition of God, and was never supposed to make faith more complicated.:eek::confused: I think it's the exact opposite. We're not trying to conceptualise some grandmaster concept that advances our level of sophistication. The Trinity was probably more of a simplification:rolleyes::) (experiencing God) rather than an "advancing to the next level of complexity" concept. Because God was too complex to define, we resorted to a way of describing how the experience took place. So it's probably not really "God has three parts/Persons" but "the Three Experiences of God" mantra.

The Trinity was supposed to be a signpost, not the road itself!!! It's just an approach to faith.:D

The Trinity should not be essential, but at the same time it shouldn't be an illegal concept. The Trinity has a lot of critics, as well as a lot of proponents who insist that it be invoked. We expect to find spirituality in certain times, places, people and concepts. We expect spirituality to be systematic and rule-based. We expect to find spirituality in numbers, but yet it's not supposed to be a numbers game!!! It's supposed to be a standard way to explain something personal. In that sense, the Trinity is a legitimate concept for those who want to make it a part of their spiritual journey. I guess what we have to remember is that if it's just a mantra, there's nothing wrong with having and not having it in one's belief system.

I guess the problem only begins when we treat it as a technicality rather than a personal faith issue . . .

Dear Saltmeister,

Great points you made. I think these verses best sums up what I want to say.

"He who is joined to the Lord is one Spirit with Him."

1 Corinthians 6:17


"Now, the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is Liberty."

2 Corinthians 3:17:)
 
Re: The Trinity of Christianity

Saltmeister said:
I think the issue is not whether the notion of a Trinity is right or wrong, but whether it is essential and legitimate. So there are two questions here:

1. Is the Trinity essential?
2. Is the Trinity legitimate?

In my view, the Trinity is not essential. It's just an approach to our spiritual journey. I've come to think that the primary purpose of the Trinity is perhaps to conceptualise an experience of God, rather than God himself. It's just that it perhaps degraded into a quantitative, technical definition of God rather than a qualitative expression of one's experience of God. People treated it as something concrete rather than something abstract. They asked questions like whether God is three-in-one and one-in-three.

But if we think of the Trinity as just a way of expressing how one experiences God, then it's no longer a question of "is God three or one or both?" but "how does God reveal Himself to me and how do I relate to Him?" The Trinity could, perhaps, be summed up like this:

An experience of the Son is an experience of God.
An experience of the Father is an experience of God.
An experience of the Holy Spirit is an experience of God.

Was Jesus God? I think it depends how you approach that question. What exactly would I mean by "Jesus being God?" If I swapped bodies with my friend, am I my friend or is my friend me? The way I would explain that situation is that my personality is projected through my friend's body, and my friend's personality is projected through my body.

The situation with God and Jesus is certainly not body swapping, but it has to do with personality. Most of us conceptualise God as holy. Holiness is not a property one's knowledge, power and abilities, but one's personality. God's holy character gives him the moral authority and moral justification to do what he does. If Jesus had the same kind of personality, then his holy character also gave him the moral authority and justification to do what he did. It gave an honest man like Jesus the justification to criticise the religious leaders of the day for being phonies. (That's assuming Jesus was that kind of man to start with.)

However, if Jesus had the same kind of character and personality as God, being honest and accountable, seeing people as they really were, not as society judged them and treating people fairly, then could Jesus' character and personality also be seen as a demonstration of God's character and personality? Jesus didn't have to have God's knowledge, power and abilities, only his character and personality, to demonstrate what God was like.

This is where "an experience of the Son" could have been seen as "an experience of God." The titles "Son of God" and "Son of Man" are quite vague. They aren't really defined in the Bible. We only see their usage. Yet, "Son of God" and "Son of Man" could refer to a human being that demonstrates what God is like so that God can be understood by human beings. Sure, we can never know everything about God and will never be able to define Him completely, but we can at least understand Him personally.

So what, really, is the Trinity? I think of it as a mantra that we recite. A signpost that tells us where to go and how to get to our destination. It is perhaps not really a definition of God, or that "God is three," but could, possibly, have started off as "the Three Experiences of God."

Just like the idea of the "Four Corners of the Earth," the Five Elements (water, metal, earth, air and fire) and what Western Medicine calls "the Five Basic Senses" of human beings, the Trinity could be a mantra, a saying that we chant. We know the earth doesn't really have Four Corners, but we sometimes mention the Four Corners because it's ancient tradition that has sentimental value. Modern chemistry has revealed that there are more than five elements. We also know from modern physiology that the body doesn't really have five kinds of senses!!! The Five Basic Senses are really just a way of describing something we can relate to personally. Some of the senses actually overlap. Taste and smell both involve detection of chemicals (a shared sense). Taste and touch both involve discerning the shape and texture of objects, and their temperature. Sight, sound, smell, taste and touch relate to an "experience" of our environment, not the actual physiological instruments used to capture the information used to generate that experience.

The universe is a lot more complicated than the simplifications we make. Same with God. We know we can never define God. We can understand and explain what he's like, but not define Him. God gave us a mind to think in the abstract. Abstractions are concepts we use to simplify things that are more complex. Life revolves around meaning but meaning must be put in context.

The Trinity, I reckon, was never meant to be a definition of God, and was never supposed to make faith more complicated.:eek::confused: I think it's the exact opposite. We're not trying to conceptualise some grandmaster concept that advances our level of sophistication. The Trinity was probably more of a simplification:rolleyes::) (experiencing God) rather than an "advancing to the next level of complexity" concept. Because God was too complex to define, we resorted to a way of describing how the experience took place. So it's probably not really "God has three parts/Persons" but "the Three Experiences of God" mantra.

The Trinity was supposed to be a signpost, not the road itself!!! It's just an approach to faith.:D

The Trinity should not be essential, but at the same time it shouldn't be an illegal concept. The Trinity has a lot of critics, as well as a lot of proponents who insist that it be invoked. We expect to find spirituality in certain times, places, people and concepts. We expect spirituality to be systematic and rule-based. We expect to find spirituality in numbers, but yet it's not supposed to be a numbers game!!! It's supposed to be a standard way to explain something personal. In that sense, the Trinity is a legitimate concept for those who want to make it a part of their spiritual journey. I guess what we have to remember is that if it's just a mantra, there's nothing wrong with having and not having it in one's belief system.

I guess the problem only begins when we treat it as a technicality rather than a personal faith issue . . .

Brilliant post Saltmeister. :)

lunamoth
 
Re: The Trinity of Christianity

cyberpi said:
As far as I know, everyone can learn by reading, brain-storming, imagination, and making mistakes. But Christianity is by definition NOT defined by brain-storms or imagination. Christianity is defined by God (swt) and Jesus Christ (pbuh). Agreed?

The real purpose of Christianity is unknown. Different groups of Christians see different things as important. Can we blame them? As human beings, our knowledge and experience is quite limited, so perhaps not. Christianity can't be defined by anyone, I guess. Christianity is probably best seen as something personal, a Mystery that we explore. Anything impersonal isn't compatible with the way we function as human beings. We can't be justified following an "impersonal Christianity" where people feel compelled to conform to something they don't understand.

That's why I would think that brainstorming, imagination and mistakes should be a legitimate approach to something spiritual. God gave us an ability to think in the abstract. That's a recipe for diversity. God made us all to be different. Yet that doesn't mean we can't be "one." Christianity is perhaps one religion that can't be defined because we were probably never meant to define it. It can be explained and described, but just not defined.

cyberpi said:
If the author was someone other than God (swt) or Christ (pbuh), then I do NOT consider it Christianity. For me, Christianity means the teaching from Jesus Christ (pbuh). What does it mean to you?

I think Christianity can be viewed as a bit more than just the teachings of Jesus Christ. That's if your agenda is to be "a follower of Christ." There could be, however, a slightly different way of thinking -- "the spiritual descendant of Christ."

If you're merely a "follower of Christ," you might reject anything other than Jesus' teachings. In the other words, the writings of Paul, Peter, James and John would go out the second-storey window.

If you're a "spiritual descendant" then that's a different story. Descendants inherit things from their ancestors. They inherit their property, wealth and perhaps even their status. With regard to "spiritual descendants" I guess it would mean that we are regarded as "spiritually equal" to Christ. We inherit everything God gave to Jesus. Jesus was condemned as a heretic and blasphemer. Yet God accepted him. Jesus was justified by God. If we seek to have the same attitude Jesus had, we too, will be justified by God. God will accept and justify us the same way he accepted and justified Jesus.

God gave Jesus a home in heaven. That home could just as well be our's too.

"Spiritual descendants" (at least my use of the term anyway) are not followers of teachings, but inheritors of status. If we're spiritual descendants, we're not particularly concerned about what he taught, but what makes us equals with Christ. Sure, we're not identical with him and we're not faultless as he was, but our aim is to be given the same level of dignity as Christ himself.

People like that could be considered "Christian" even though they follow teachings that are not the original teachings of Christ. Jesus, Paul, Peter, James and John all developed their own teachings, but Paul, Peter, James and John wrote on the legacy of Christ as a "spiritual ancestor" from which we could inherit a home in heaven. The idea is that we can share Jesus' home just because "we're considered equal" with Jesus. Paul, Peter, James and John's teachings were teachings about Christ. Christ was "honoured" not just as a teacher, but also as a spiritual leader that led the way and shared his path with others. They wrote in honour of Christ rather than themselves.

In that sense it's not necessarily Jesus' teachings that make us "Christian." It's what makes him our leader that makes us "Christian." We read the Bible to remind ourselves of what Jesus did. Just as there are teachings that came from Christ there are also teachings about Christ. These teachings may not have come from Christ himself. Yet they are legitimate as they conceptualise a "spiritual leader."

In a sense, because there are teachings that came from him and ones about him, the teachings don't have to come from him. They don't even have to come from Paul, Peter, James and John. They can come from you and me, or anyone who has or appears to have, the Spirit.

Christianity, I would think, is not about the teachings of Christ, but Christ being our leader. That's perhaps why John in 1 John 4:1-3 says to "test the spirits," as so-called "teachings" can come from anyone -- and the door is open to everyone to explain Christ, using whatever approach they want. God gave us a mind to think in the abstract, and likewise, the issue is open for us to come up with whatever reasoning our minds can imagine. The reasoning may be wrong, but it is our own responsibility to detect the fault.
 
Re: The Trinity of Christianity

Saltmeister said:
The real purpose of Christianity is unknown.
Dear Saltmeister, I think it is to be conformed into His image by (Sanctification) through the Holy Spirit. What do you think?
 
Back
Top