knowledge and belief

[neosnoia]

half-believers are easy to recognize because they are engaged in the work of trying to believe and not in the work of belief itself. They are seeking some confirmation in the outer world to complete an internal process that remains half-finished within them;

Very true words. I had to take a leap into trust. Scarey stuff, but definitely worth it. Thinking about bouncing on the trampoline just can't compete with actually bouncing on the trampoline (thanks Rob Bell).

If one believes down to their marrow, there is nothing to prove, nothing to defend, we forget about our "selves." Ultimately perhaps real belief is ultimately the same as letting go.

"This is the door to the Palace of No-Where ... " Have you read Finley's commentary on Merton?

 

[earl]

Is this James Finley? No, haven't read it but am interested in anything by and about Merton. Take care, earl

 

[moseslmpg]

OK, hold the phone. If belief is a clinging on, then how is faith letting go? You have to have faith in some belief to let go. Can someone explain the logic of this to me, as if it even matters?

 

[seattlegal]

OK, hold the phone. If belief is a clinging on, then how is faith letting go? You have to have faith in some belief to let go. Can someone explain the logic of this to me, as if it even matters?

Belief is an unfinished project--a person will cling to them in out of doubts that the belief is not strong enough or well developed enough to stand by itself.
Faith occurs when a person trusts that the project (belief) is finished, and is strong enough and sufficiently developed to stand on its own.

 

[moseslmpg]

Belief is an unfinished project--a person will cling to them in out of doubts that the belief is not strong enough or well developed enough to stand by itself.
Faith occurs when a person trusts that the project (belief) is finished, and is strong enough and sufficiently developed to stand on its own.

Thank you very much. I don't know why I didn't see it. Another question arises, that I have been meaning to ask: How do you know what you believe or have faith in?

I, personally, am not very sure of my internal environment at any given time, and just about every belief system out there that doesn't directly conflict with my perceptions and intuition seems valid to me. Basically, I'm a drifter, I just roll from place to place.

 

[Caimanson]

Belief is an unfinished project--a person will cling to them in out of doubts that the belief is not strong enough or well developed enough to stand by itself.
Faith occurs when a person trusts that the project (belief) is finished, and is strong enough and sufficiently developed to stand on its own.

Then you have the existentialist view that some atheists and agnostics use, where faith truly is about letting go of all certainties, it is about embracing uncertainty. Obviously this can be used by religious people as well.

My 2p.

 

[seattlegal]

Then you have the existentialist view that some atheists and agnostics use, where faith truly is about letting go of all certainties, it is about embracing uncertainty. Obviously this can be used by religious people as well.

My 2p.

Hmm, quantum physics also has its own Uncertainty Principle...

 

[neosnoia]

Just came across a cool idea regarding Adam and Eve and their "state" in the garden. The author (somewhat tongue in cheek) uses Heisenberg's principle as an analogy. The series is linked on my blog.

 

[Dondi]

Just came across a cool idea regarding Adam and Eve and their "state" in the garden. The author (somewhat tongue in cheek) uses Heisenberg's principle as an analogy. The series is linked on my blog.

Great series of articles, neosnoia!

What I find paticularly interesting is the talk about the Cherubs guarding the Tree of Life and the parallels with the Cherubs guarding the Ten Commantments (i.e. the Torah) in the Ark of the Covenant. What caught my eye is the quote of Proverbs 3:18, which the translation here shows it to be:

"It is a tree of life to all who grab hold of it..." (Proverbs 3:18)

Now, I don't know which translation is being used here, but the KJV (and I'm not advocating the KJV, it's just the version I happen to be using), renders it as follows:

"She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her." - Proverbs 3:18 (KJV)

What interests me here is the use of the word "she". If your look at the context of the passage in Proverbs 3, the "she" is Wisdom personified. Aha! Whereas we are confronted with the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, in the Tree of Life is is equated to Wisdom. Here is an extention of the passage in Proverbs 3:

"Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding.
For the merchandise of it is better than the merchandise of silver, and the gain thereof than fine gold.
She is more precious than rubies: and all the things thou canst desire are not to be compared unto her.
Length of days is in her right hand; and in her left hand riches and honour.
Her ways are ways of pleasantness, and all her paths are peace.
She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her.
The LORD by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens." - Proverbs 3:13-19

Could wisdom, therefore, mean the application of the knowledge of good and evil?

To expound further:

During their time in the wilderness, the Israelites moved about whenever the pilar of fire by night and the pillar of smoke moved to another location. The pillars represented the Glory of God, or the "Shechinah Glory" that occupied the Mercy Seat between the two Cherubs on the Ark. I found an interesting tidbit on the this website referring to the word "Shechinah":

Shechinah (sh'-KHEE-nuh) The Divine Presence of G-d, generally represented as a feminine quality.

Source: http://www.jewfaq.org/cgi-bin/search.cgi?Keywords=shechinah

[Emphasis mine]

Could this then be equating the Divine Presence of God (i.e. the Spirit of God) as the Tree of Life?

 

[neosnoia]

What I find paticularly interesting is the talk about the Cherubs guarding the Tree of Life and the parallels with the Cherubs guarding the Ten Commantments (i.e. the Torah) in the Ark of the Covenant.

Yeah, that really struck me as well. Cherubs are only mentioned twice in the entire five books of Moses - once as guarding the "Tree of Life," the other as guarding the Torah.

What interests me here is the use of the word "she". If your look at the context of the passage in Proverbs 3, the "she" is Wisdom personified.

Thank you for looking that up!

So "it" or "she" is wisdom (chokmah) personified (the ESV uses "she" as well, btw). Grabbing hold of wisdom is a tree of life to those who lay hold of her. Aish.com says that "wisdom" in Proverbs refers to the Torah. Christians traditionally hold that wisdom personified is the Logos, who fulfilled the Law. Very interesting correlations.

Could wisdom, therefore, mean the application of the knowledge of good and evil?

Possibly. Interesting idea worth exploration.

Could this then be equating the Divine Presence of God (i.e. the Spirit of God) as the Tree of Life?

Another interesting idea. God's presence sits between the Cherubs who, only one other place are mentioned - as guarding the Tree of Life. And again, Christians traditionally view Jesus as the Logos of God, incarnate. "God is with us."

God, Jesus, Law, Tree of Life - boggles my mind.

Oh, and I found another installment in the series. Going to go post the links now.

 

[neosnoia]

Could wisdom, therefore, mean the application of the knowledge of good and evil?

Part seven in the series discusses the meaning of da'at (knowledge) that is quite illuminating.

 

[seattlegal]

Shechinah (sh'-KHEE-nuh) The Divine Presence of G-d, generally represented as a feminine quality.

Source: http://www.jewfaq.org/cgi-bin/search...ords=shechinah

[Emphasis mine]

Could this then be equating the Divine Presence of God (i.e. the Spirit of God) as the Tree of Life?

Sounds like you are referring to the Sephirot, also referred to as the Tree of Life, within the Kabbalah tradition.

 

[Dondi]

Sounds like you are referring to the Sephirot, also referred to as the Tree of Life, within the Kabbalah tradition.

Wow, now you're getting into some deep waters. I'm going to stay in the shallow end until I learn how to swim. Someone said on another post that one should not study kabbalah until one has mastered the Torah. I've mastered nothing yet.

 

[seattlegal]

Wow, now you're getting into some deep waters. I'm going to stay in the shallow end until I learn how to swim. Someone said on another post that one should not study kabbalah until one has mastered the Torah. I've mastered nothing yet.

I would say that was very good advice.