knowledge and belief

RubySera_Martin said:
In summary, I think it's unknowable what we can know. Live in the moment. Be aware of the details, of colour, line, shape, texture. Carry the big picture of your world in your head at all times. Be prepared to die tomorrow but expect to live forever. How's that for paradoxes of the unknowable;)
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You've hit the nail right on the head, Ruby.

Oh... and the number eight is sacred in form. If you lay it on its side, you've got infinity.

flow....:)
 
flowperson said:
the number eight is sacred in form. If you lay it on its side, you've got infinity.

flow....:)
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In what mythology or system of symbols would that be? It's not part of my inherited background so I know it's not a universal symbol for infinity.

Also, why would infinity be considered sacred?

This is not a challenge to your statement. It's just my curiosity getting the best of me. Or, put another way, I see it as an opportunity to learn something new....

I am reminded of a saying I learned as a child: Curiosity killed the cat.

I'm trying to figure out what type of people and for what purpose that would be a considered a bit of wisdom woth passing to posterity??? That's off-topic.

Ruby
 
RubySera_Martin said:
When I suggest in the presence of Christians about Christianity being but one expression of God I often meet with blunt and blatant disagreement however subtly and politely expressed. Some will simply not comment, and after digesting the fact that I said something as blaphemous as all that they will change the subject. It's like bumping up against a stone wall. No, it's more like the thud of bumping against a wall of planks.
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I was born into a family and community of Christians very much like those you refer to. They are people who believe that they know something. Using Socrates we might say that these people are therefore not wise. Is there a problem in saying this though? I say "Is" because I really do not know. If we say that we know nothing, how can we know that they are wrong?

What if these people, or at least some of them, really do know something that we don't? What if there is no octagon? What if we are blind men feeling round in the darkness but these people, as they would profess, have been given the gift of sight by the Holy Spirit?
 
originally posted by cavalier

If we say that we know nothing, how can we know that they are wrong?
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Good point. Though, if where we've gotten so far was "hard to put into words", then this has the potential to take it entirely beyond description. LOL...I suppose "intuition" is an irrational argument.:D
 
You sound so much like me, Cavalier. I can only tell you what works for me.

cavalier said:
I was born into a family and community of Christians very much like those you refer to. They are people who believe that they know something. Using Socrates we might say that these people are therefore not wise. Is there a problem in saying this though? I say "Is" because I really do not know. If we say that we know nothing, how can we know that they are wrong?
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From the perspective of true and false, I don't have an answer. From the perspective of human relationships, no we can't say that. My criteria is cause and effect and what is really important to me. It is more important to me to maintain good relationships with the people around me than to alienate them with a fact of life they are at this point incapable or unwilling of facing. In terms of cause and effect, telling people they are not as wise as they think because Socrates said such and such will probably cause alienation.

What if these people, or at least some of them, really do know something that we don't? What if there is no octagon? What if we are blind men feeling round in the darkness but these people, as they would profess, have been given the gift of sight by the Holy Spirit?
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All legitimate questions. I think the deeper question you are asking is: Is God real or not and what are the implications?

Again, I can only share what works for me. Whether or not God exists is for me unknowable. I have also talked to some of the most educated Christians around and they say we cannot prove or disprove God's existence.

This leaves me alone in the universe with the question: Who is right--the people who say to follow your heart and use your talents, or the people who say I will go to hell for disobeying the church?

I will try to explain where I am at now. The Bible says what the fruits of the Spirit are--love, joy, peace, etc. The Love Chapter in 1 Cor. 13 is a wonderful example. By being true to myself at all costs, I find myself turning into a person for whom these things come fairly naturally.

I don't feel on top of the world every minute of every day because life is not that way. Nor do I like all the people I encounter in life. But there is a peace deep down that was not there earlier in my life. It came as a result of my I commitment to be true to myself at all costs. I can be fair and respectful of the people I don't like, and when heavy times come upon me I can live in the confidence that "this too will pass."

At this point it is not important to me whether or not God exists. I feel a deep peace and assurance that if God does exist, my way of living is pleasing to him. I believe God, if God exists, is fair and loving like a parent who shows respect and unconditional love for his children. Such a God will respect the genuine attempt at living fully and joyfully by being true to myself.

If there is no God, it is still the best way for me to live. If there is no afterlife, at least I enjoyed the one life I had. If there is an afterlife, like I said, I believe God will accept me and all others.

In this way I stick with what I know. It requires considerable trust and faith to live this way. Truth and faith that the unknowable will not consume me and vent its rage on me, but is loving and fair.

Ruby
 
Nice one Ruby,

As good a refutation of Pascal's wager as I have encountered. Your way of thinking is refreshing!

Peace

Mark
 
RubySera_Martin said:
telling people they are not as wise as they think because Socrates said such and such will probably cause alienation.
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I didn't mean I would think about actually saying this to someone.:) My thoughts were more along the lines of how we should think about these kinds of beliefs.

Much more importantly,
RubySera_Martin said:
I will try to explain where I am at now. The Bible says what the fruits of the Spirit are--love, joy, peace, etc. The Love Chapter in 1 Cor. 13 is a wonderful example. By being true to myself at all costs, I find myself turning into a person for whom these things come fairly naturally.

I don't feel on top of the world every minute of every day because life is not that way. Nor do I like all the people I encounter in life. But there is a peace deep down that was not there earlier in my life. It came as a result of my I commitment to be true to myself at all costs. I can be fair and respectful of the people I don't like, and when heavy times come upon me I can live in the confidence that "this too will pass."

At this point it is not important to me whether or not God exists. I feel a deep peace and assurance that if God does exist, my way of living is pleasing to him. I believe God, if God exists, is fair and loving like a parent who shows respect and unconditional love for his children. Such a God will respect the genuine attempt at living fully and joyfully by being true to myself.
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Thoughts like this have been wandering through my head for some time now.

It's difficult to let go of indoctrination but I have had a liberating realisation, that if God is the way some people say he is, then come what may I would choose not to worship him.

I now think what I think, and ask God to forgive any erroneous views, any God worth praying to will answer my prayer.
 
RubySera_Martin said:
In what mythology or system of symbols would that be? It's not part of my inherited background so I know it's not a universal symbol for infinity.

Also, why would infinity be considered sacred?

This is not a challenge to your statement. It's just my curiosity getting the best of me. Or, put another way, I see it as an opportunity to learn something new....

I am reminded of a saying I learned as a child: Curiosity killed the cat.

I'm trying to figure out what type of people and for what purpose that would be a considered a bit of wisdom woth passing to posterity??? That's off-topic.

Ruby
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Hi Ruby:

The infinity symbol, or an eight symbol on its side, is a widely used symbol in mathematics having to do with universal concepts that are explored and analyzed in Astrophysics, Astronomy, Complex Systems Studies, and Cosmology.

I think of it as sacred because it signifies the realm of G-d, since G-d is infinite in nature, but I knew lots of scientists that didn't think of infinity in this way.

Somebody or something is sending you subliminal messages having to do with the infinite in your dreams maybe ?

flow....;)
 
flowperson said:
Hi Ruby:

The infinity symbol, or an eight symbol on its side, is a widely used symbol in mathematics having to do with universal concepts that are explored and analyzed in Astrophysics, Astronomy, Complex Systems Studies, and Cosmology.
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Okay, that explains things! People sometimes use the symbol or talk about it and I, who am terrible at elementary math, haven't a clue what they're talking about. It would translate rather easily into the fish symbol of Christianity, I would think. Just stretch out the circles.

I think of it as sacred because it signifies the realm of G-d, since G-d is infinite in nature, but I knew lots of scientists that didn't think of infinity in this way.
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It does explain why the infinity sign would be sacred for you and possibly other religions.
 
cavalier said:
Thoughts like this have been wandering through my head for some time now.

It's difficult to let go of indoctrination but I have had a liberating realisation, that if God is the way some people say he is, then come what may I would choose not to worship him.
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This sounds very much like my own experience. It takes time. At least, for me it did. Many years. One tiny insight at a time. A man shared a personal story in a small group discussion that had quite an impact on me. He talked about the way his church responded when he was going through a divorce. The pastor emphasized grace.

He said to the group, "I thought, if this is grace, then I don't want it." Since then, I have taken the same approach to the "love" that my own family and former church insist on imposing on me. If that is love then I don't want it. True love should not hurt so much.

It seems this may be a necessary part of the journey for some of us as we confront indoctrinations. Before we can really move forward we need the courage and faith and trust to "get mad at God," or to confront the main and central character of those indoctrinations...that's just what comes to me as I see the similarities of our various experiences.

I now think what I think, and ask God to forgive any erroneous views, any God worth praying to will answer my prayer.
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I recognize this step, too. As you acquire a level of comfort with that you may gain the courage and faith and trust to move even further along the road. If not, you have definitely "left the fatherland," or "come out from among them." This last phrase is what God supposedly told Abraham when he left his father's country. It has had special meaning for me when I had to leave.

All the best on your journey.

Ruby
 
Paladin said:
Nice one Ruby,

As good a refutation of Pascal's wager as I have encountered.
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Yeah, the same thought has occurred to me. I was actually quite surprised when the insight came to me. It seemed so "right."

Pascal's wager feels so "wrong" to me. Like I'm still in bondage to sin, or the forces of darkness or whatever.

I guess that is a very contraversial statement but it is the feeling it evokes in me.
 
Yup, it sure does feel wrong does't it? I think Louis Mackey finally refuted Pascals wager as being "religion specific" In other words, you would have to believe in a capricious, vengeful, petty god for it to make any sense, and who would agree with that premise?

Peace

Mark
 
RubySera_Martin said:
This sounds very much like my own experience. It takes time. At least, for me it did.
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For me too, it is still taking time. I'm not as far along in my journey as my last post would suggest.

RubySera_Martin said:
A man shared a personal story in a small group discussion that had quite an impact on me. He talked about the way his church responded when he was going through a divorce. The pastor emphasized grace.

He said to the group, "I thought, if this is grace, then I don't want it." Since then, I have taken the same approach to the "love" that my own family and former church insist on imposing on me. If that is love then I don't want it. True love should not hurt so much.
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Like having people stand in front of you and pray for you, asking God that he might work miracles in your life and cast out the seed of doubt which the Devil has planted in your heart.

RubySera_Martin said:
All the best on your journey.
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Thanks Ruby.
 
OK I just was reading the current edition of Tricycle-it's a journal of Buddhist thought-and in it was an article from some guy re his embracing of Pure Land Buddhism-that's Tariki's "home ground" by the way. Reading that set off all sorts of light bulbs! That tradition postulates that one can be "reborn" into a "pure land" by deeply entrusting in how the work of enlightenment has already been laid by a "being" referred to as Amida-OK Christians & Buddhists what does this remind you of? Allow me to quote some segments from that article which rang my bells:

"...Pure Land founders....taught that we should not recite the nembutso in order to be saved, but rather because we were saved-in other words, not out of fear, but as an expression of gratitude and joy, (it's a recognition of an actuality which has already occurred not a test to become worthy of such)...I believe in the Pure Land, established countless eons ago by Amida Buddha so that deluded beings like myself can be reborn there when they die. Further I believe that I am born now-that at the moment I step beyond my own understanding, and entrust to a power beyond myself, I am 'embraced, never to be foresaken'...Pure Land tradition offers a different answer from most other Buddhist schools, for it begins with the recognition that we are essentially powerless to effect our own salvation. Why? Because our entire being is founded upon ignorance, (my definition of "original sin" and what Tariki and I both were getting at perhaps when speaking of matters of spiritual humility)...the meaning is plain. the price of faith is everything...faith has been given a bad name by the half-believer, by the one who has not yet paid everything for what he believes...half-believers are easy to recognize because they are engaged in the work of trying to believe and not in the work of belief itself. They are seeking some confirmation in the outer world to complete an internal process that remains half-finished within them; thus they are often highly vocal and intolerant of other's points of view...By contrast, those who believe fully are at peace within themselves."

OK, other than the fact that this view of "being saved" accords with my view of what Christ's message was really about, why did this ring my bell? Because it told me that real belief takes one so deeply into one's path that it also effects the letting go that Tariki spoke of. If one believes down to their marrow, there is nothing to prove, nothing to defend, we forget about our "selves." Ultimately perhaps real belief is ultimately the same as letting go. Hmmm? have a good one, earl
 
cavalier said:
Like having people stand in front of you and pray for you, asking God that he might work miracles in your life and cast out the seed of doubt which the Devil has planted in your heart.
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Exactly! Self-righteousness takes many forms. Feel free to ask questions. I am being taught that asking questions and doubts are part and parcel of a lively and active faith. I am beginning to believe it. After all, life means movement, growth, transformation. No movement, transformation, or growth can often mean stagnation.

I've seen this. I've seen virbant and flexible teenagers grow into rigid and proposition-spouting middle-agers. Somewhere along the line they lost their vibrancy and adaptability and enthusiasm, their genuine seeking. They adopt the line of responsibilty and hard-line inflexible religion that must be protected from all tampering at all costs. As though God is not strong enough to defend and take care of himself.

A chaplain at a school where I was studying rebuked me saying, "It sounds like you were testing God." I talked with a female Christian prof about this. She's a somewhat short woman but has a very strong personality. She said, "I like to think I can handle anything students can throw at me. I would think God can do just as much."

It has occurred to me that a faith that cannot stand questioning is not a very good faith. Truth can stand on its own. No amount of questioning can irradicate truth; questioning and testing can only confirm truth's validity to the honest seeker.

I'm trying to think of an analogy. In my part of the world we get a lot of snow each winter and severe cold. People have to carry mits and other accessories that are discarded on a warm sunny noon. Sometimes a mit is accidentally dropped.

I know this because I've seen the mits when the snow melted. The mits don't melt. They don't scream for attention. They just are. Snow storms can cover them. Snowplows can plow them into the bank on the curb where they are entombed in a frozen mass. The mit cannot protest.

When warm weather comes and the spring winds and rains soften the snow and ice and they disappear down the storm drains as so much water, the mits stay behind.

Likewise, truth will not melt and disappear; it quietly remains no matter what violence is done to it. That's one way of looking at it.

Ruby
 
RubySera_Martin said:
Exactly! Self-righteousness takes many forms. Feel free to ask questions. I am being taught that asking questions and doubts are part and parcel of a lively and active faith. I am beginning to believe it. After all, life means movement, growth, transformation. No movement, transformation, or growth can often mean stagnation.

I've seen this. I've seen virbant and flexible teenagers grow into rigid and proposition-spouting middle-agers. Somewhere along the line they lost their vibrancy and adaptability and enthusiasm, their genuine seeking. They adopt the line of responsibilty and hard-line inflexible religion that must be protected from all tampering at all costs. As though God is not strong enough to defend and take care of himself.

A chaplain at a school where I was studying rebuked me saying, "It sounds like you were testing God." I talked with a female Christian prof about this. She's a somewhat short woman but has a very strong personality. She said, "I like to think I can handle anything students can throw at me. I would think God can do just as much."

It has occurred to me that a faith that cannot stand questioning is not a very good faith. Truth can stand on its own. No amount of questioning can irradicate truth; questioning and testing can only confirm truth's validity to the honest seeker.

I'm trying to think of an analogy. In my part of the world we get a lot of snow each winter and severe cold. People have to carry mits and other accessories that are discarded on a warm sunny noon. Sometimes a mit is accidentally dropped.

I know this because I've seen the mits when the snow melted. The mits don't melt. They don't scream for attention. They just are. Snow storms can cover them. Snowplows can plow them into the bank on the curb where they are entombed in a frozen mass. The mit cannot protest.

When warm weather comes and the spring winds and rains soften the snow and ice and they disappear down the storm drains as so much water, the mits stay behind.

Likewise, truth will not melt and disappear; it quietly remains no matter what violence is done to it. That's one way of looking at it.

Ruby
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Very nice! :)

luna
 
Flow and Luna, thank you. I can see that it might appear like a beautiful analogy. The problem for me is that these mits are usually so grimy and gross that I'd hate to touch them. Still the analogy does work, I think. Truth is not always beautful and pleasant but it is enduring.
 
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