identifying...Babylon the great

[mee]

Re: identifying ..Babylon the Great...

Ancient​

​

Babylon was outstandingly noted for its religion and its defiance of Jehovah​

Gen. 10:8-10: "Nimrod . . . displayed himself a mighty hunter in opposition to Jehovah. . . . And the beginning of his kingdom came to be Babel [later known as Babylon]."
Dan. 5:22, 23: "As for you [Belshazzar king of Babylon] . . . against the Lord of the heavens you exalted yourself, . . . and you have praised mere gods of silver and of gold, copper, iron, wood and stone, that are beholding nothing or hearing nothing or knowing nothing; but the God in whose hand your breath is and to whom all your ways belong you have not glorified."
An ancient cuneiform inscription reads: "Altogether there are in Babylon 53 temples of the chief gods, 55 chapels of Marduk, 300 chapels for the earthly deities, 600 for the heavenly deities, 180 altars for the goddess Ishtar, 180 for the gods Nergal and Adad and 12 other altars for different gods."—Quoted in The Bible as History (New York, 1964), W. Keller, p. 301.​

The​

Encyclopedia Americana comments: "Sumerian civilization [which was part of Babylonia] was dominated by priests; at the head of the state was the lugal (literally ‘great man’), the representative of the gods."—(1977), Vol. 3, p. 9.​

Reasonably, therefore, Babylon the Great as referred to in Revelation is religious. Being like a city and an empire, it is not limited to one religious group but includes all religions that are in opposition to Jehovah, the true God.

 

[Thomas]

Re: identifying ..Babylon the Great...

At Revelation 17:18, the same figurative woman is described as "the great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth." The term "city" indicates an organized group of people. Since this "great city" has control over "the kings of the earth," the woman named Babylon the Great must be an influential organization that is international in scope. It can rightly be called a world empire. What kind of empire? A religious one.

Not necessarily ... when the Iron Curtain went down, the first to establish in Eastern Europe were the major commercial conglomerates. All the evidence points to a commercial empire ... and the major commercial conglomerates order the activities of the minor ones.

Notice how some related passages in the book of Revelation lead us to this conclusion.

OK

An empire can be political, commercial, or religious.

OK

The woman named Babylon the Great is not a political empire because God’s Word states that "the kings of the earth," or the political elements of this world, "committed fornication" with her. Her fornication refers to the alliances she has made with the rulers of this earth and explains why she is called "the great harlot."—Revelation 17:1, 2; James 4:4.

Not necessarily. The lesser make alliances with the greater.

Babylon the Great cannot be a commercial empire because the "merchants of the earth," representing the commercial elements, will be mourning her at the time of her destruction. In fact, both kings and merchants are described as looking at Babylon the Great from "a distance." (Revelation 18:3, 9, 10, 15-17)

Again, this points to the centre of enterprise. If the American economy collapsed, for example, then all the world economies suffer.

Look at the price of oil ... what goes on in the Middle East has a significant effect for the price we pay at the pump.

Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that Babylon the Great is, not a political or a commercial empire, but a religious one.

I think this argument is faulty. The kings and merchants of the world do not look to religion for their authority, leadership or permission. Most of the world's commercial enterprises would delight if the various religions collapsed, and they usually hold to the value of the human being, whereas commercialism treats humanity as a consumer.

The religious identity of Babylon the Great is further confirmed by the statement that she misleads all the nations by means of her "spiritistic practice." (Revelation 18:23)

I would rather consider this to be post-Enlightenment philosophy that denied the idea of Revelation ... this has led the West into the relativisms and false philosophies it labours under today.

Thomas

 

[Thomas]

Re: identifying ..Babylon the Great...

Reasonably, therefore, Babylon the Great as referred to in Revelation is religious. Being like a city and an empire, it is not limited to one religious group but includes all religions that are in opposition to Jehovah, the true God.

Well, historically most empires and cultures had a religious foundation. Rome and Greece had their gods, until philosophy came along ... Egypt, Canaan ...

So yes, any culture in the Middle East, of the times of which you speak, would have had a religious foundation. But what is your point? We all know that Babylon, like Assyria and Egypt, were bad guys in Israel's book.

If you're transferring that to modern times, as a symbol of today, then you can't simply look for another religious institution, you have to look at the institutions that lie at the heart of culture, what has become the 'god' of that culture ... otherwise you are too narrow in your interpretations ... so as today the West is primarily secular, much as it likes to portray itself as Christian ... it is precisely the commerical enterprises, and I count the world's militaries as the biggest commerical enterprises of them all.

I believe it's called the military-industrial complex?

Just a thought.

Thomas

 

[Quahom1]

Re: identifying ..Babylon the Great...

I have merged the two threads on the same topic into one thread.

v/r

Q

 

[paganprophet]

The reference in Revelation to Babylon the Great is to Babylon because it was while priests and writers of the Torah, Tanakh, and Talmud compilations were in their Babylonian Exile period that they picked up and polluted the story of God with both Zoroastrian dualism and the domination of one tribe of Israel, Judah, over all the rest with the resulting Bible heavily favoring Judah's people over all the rest of humankind.

 

[mee]

Re: identifying ..Babylon the Great...

Not necessarily ... when the Iron Curtain went down, the first to establish in Eastern Europe were the major commercial conglomerates. All the evidence points to a commercial empire ... and the major commercial conglomerates order the activities of the minor ones.


OK


OK


Not necessarily. The lesser make alliances with the greater.


Again, this points to the centre of enterprise. If the American economy collapsed, for example, then all the world economies suffer.

Look at the price of oil ... what goes on in the Middle East has a significant effect for the price we pay at the pump.


I think this argument is faulty. The kings and merchants of the world do not look to religion for their authority, leadership or permission. Most of the world's commercial enterprises would delight if the various religions collapsed, and they usually hold to the value of the human being, whereas commercialism treats humanity as a consumer.


I would rather consider this to be post-Enlightenment philosophy that denied the idea of Revelation ... this has led the West into the relativisms and false philosophies it labours under today.

Thomas

so who is it that the bible says will be mourning her when she is destroyed? is it not the merchants or commercial ,
"Also, the traveling merchants of the earth are weeping and mourning over her, because there is no one to buy their full stock anymore, a full stock of gold and silver and precious stone and pearls and fine linen and purple and silk and scarlet; and everything in scented wood and every sort of ivory object and every sort of object out of most precious wood and of copper and of iron and of marble; also cinnamon and Indian spice and incense and perfumed oil and frankincense and wine and olive oil and fine flour and wheat and cattle and sheep, and horses and coaches and slaves and human souls. Yes, the fine fruit that your soul desired has departed from you [Babylon the Great], and all the dainty things and the gorgeous things have perished from you, and never again will people find them."—Revelation 18:11-14.
so that rules that out as being babylon the great .
Notice, however also, that those grief-stricken kings now stand at a distance from the doomed city. They do not get close enough to come to her aid. They are sad to see her go but not sad enough to take risks in her behalf. so it is not the KINGS OF THE EARTH either.
And the kings of the earth who committed fornication with her and lived in shameless luxury will weep and beat themselves in grief over her, when they look at the smoke from the burning of her, while they stand at a distance because of their fear of her torment and say, ‘Too bad, too bad, you great city, Babylon you strong city, because in one hour your judgment has arrived!’"—Revelation 18:9, 10. yes ,babylon the great is THE WORLD EMPIRE OF FALSE RELIGION

 

[mee]

Re: Babylon the great

No you were correct the first time Revelation is describing the whore of babylon as false religion... she gets drunk and gains power from the however many headed beast which is world powers and nations in a political view.... *shrugs*

yes babylon the great is most certainly the world empire of false religion. and as the bible tells us the whole world is in the power of the wicked one (satan the devil) 1 john 5;19 and she is a great harlot who is having dealings with the kings of the earth .

 

[mee]

The voice out of heaven says further: "The traveling merchants of these things, who became rich from her, will stand at a distance because of their fear of her torment and will weep and mourn, saying, ‘Too bad, too bad—the great city, clothed with fine linen and purple and scarlet, and richly adorned with gold ornament and precious stone and pearl, because in one hour such great riches have been devastated!’" (Revelation 18:15-17a) With the destruction of Babylon the Great, the "merchants" mourn at the loss of that commercial partner. Truly, it is "too bad, too bad" for them. Notice, though, that their reasons for mourning are entirely selfish and that they—like the kings—"stand at a distance." They do not get close enough to be of any help to Babylon the Great.

 

[Thomas]

My point is, what is the 'false religion' of the world today – assuming we're talking Western World, as none of this applies to the 'Third World' or starving millions who populate this planet, and are too busy trying to survibve at just the most basic level.

I would call it Materialism.

Thomas

 

[Dondi]

The reference in Revelation to Babylon the Great is to Babylon because it was while priests and writers of the Torah, Tanakh, and Talmud compilations were in their Babylonian Exile period that they picked up and polluted the story of God with both Zoroastrian dualism and the domination of one tribe of Israel, Judah, over all the rest with the resulting Bible heavily favoring Judah's people over all the rest of humankind.

BB would vehemently disagree. God did not choose Israel for any more reason that He had to start with somebody to bring forth His plan for the world. In fact, God told Abraham that through him, all the nations of the world would be blessed. So the God of the Hebrews is the God of everyone.

 

[paganprophet]

Priests and scribes of Judah wrote that. They wrote it and it promotes their tribe and their tribal god. It's not truth but tribal propaganda.

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, paganprophet!

The reference in Revelation to Babylon the Great is to Babylon because it was while priests and writers of the Torah, Tanakh, and Talmud compilations were in their Babylonian Exile period that they picked up and polluted the story of God with both Zoroastrian dualism and the domination of one tribe of Israel, Judah, over all the rest with the resulting Bible heavily favoring Judah's people over all the rest of humankind.

Priests and scribes of Judah wrote that. They wrote it and it promotes their tribe and their tribal god. It's not truth but tribal propaganda.

I am thinking your history is a bit skewed here. By the time of the Babylonian exile, all that was left was the tribe of Judah, half of Levi and the remnant of Benjamin; in other words, what is classically called the Jews. There were no "all the rest" left to assume dominion over! The "other tribes" were already disbursed a couple of hundred years before. I do hope the remainder of your own propaganda, ooops, prophecy, is at least historically accurate.

It seems there is a bit of neglect concerning the blessings bestowed on each of the tribes by their father Jacob as well. What was the blessing bestowed on Judah again? Oh, that's right, the blessings weren't really written until a couple hundred years after the other tribes were carried off by the Assyrians, which means the whole Torah is a fabrication, not only from Solomon's time, but from Nebuchadnezzar's? Am I reading you correctly? Moses never existed? The period of slavery symbolically remembered every year by Passover never happened? The 613 laws are a sadistic afterthought by a crooked clergy? Is this what your vision implies?

BTW, are you aware that some people have been cured of horrible diseases, by sugar pills? The human mind with a bit of suggestion can be a powerful thing...

 

[paganprophet]

What happened to all those Hebrews then who weren't members of the tribe of Judah? The Assyrians aren't recorded as genociding them, only carting off prominent citizens to Babylon. What happened to them?

Hebrews were called "Jews" after their Babylonian Captivity because that's when the priests and scribes of Judah took control of all the Israelites also formerly known as Hebrews.

 

[Quahom1]

What happened to all those Hebrews then who weren't members of the tribe of Judah? The Assyrians aren't recorded as genociding them, only carting off prominent citizens to Babylon. What happened to them?

Hebrews were called "Jews" after their Babylonian Captivity because that's when the priests and scribes of Judah took control of all the Israelites also formerly known as Hebrews.

Huh? The Land of Israel split into two kingdoms well before that. The one kingdom was called Israel, and the other kingdom, "Judah". The kingdom of Israel was scattered to the four corners of the earth, while Judah, hung around a bit longer.

When Babylon "carted off" the best and brightest, they were eventually let go, and allowed to go back home.

The term "Jew" was specific to those from the tribe of Judah. The term Israelite, was used to identify all tribes of Israel as a nation. Only Judah, survived as a viable tribe within the land of Israel/Palestine, until 70 ACE (AD). Then, the Romans scattered them as well.

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, paganprophet!

Thank you for your response!

What happened to all those Hebrews then who weren't members of the tribe of Judah?

Ah, the 64 thousand dollar question! These are known to history as the ten lost tribes. Elsewhere here I have dropped the little I have heard, but it is difficult at best to track them down. Some say that some of them became among the Barbaric tribes of Europe that gave Rome fits for so long. Others suggest a possible Celtic tie with at least two of the lost tribes (Ephraim and Mannasseh) and the British Isles. The tribe of Dan was outcast by the brother tribes even before the split post Solomon, and there is suggestion they founded Sparta, among others. There are place names through much of continental Europe that bear the name Dan. But there is nothing definitive to back any of this, just a lot of folk tradition and speculation.

The Assyrians aren't recorded as genociding them, only carting off prominent citizens to Babylon. What happened to them?

Assyria and Babylon are two completely different regional superpowers. Assyria's "MO" if you will, was to scatter their captured subjects across the land to dilute their ability to draw on traditional cultural ties and politics to reform and pose an internal threat to their subjugators. The ten tribes have lost their identity, and even now do not realize their own cultural heritage (by and large).

Think in terms of Assyria as Iran, and Babylon as Iraq.

Hebrews were called "Jews" after their Babylonian Captivity because that's when the priests and scribes of Judah took control of all the Israelites also formerly known as Hebrews.

The Hebrews carried into Babylonian captivity were called Jews after the Babylonian captivity because the tribe of Judah is what was carried into captivity by Babylon. The Hebrews that compose the remaining 10 tribes (Levi and the remnant of Benjamin are included in Judah) were lost to history, and by the time of Judah's capture were well into the process of losing their identity.

Ever hear of the Samaritans? As in the parable of the Good Samaritan? The Samaritans were a minor fraction of the House of Israel carried away by Assyria and scattered to the four winds. Which is why the Samaritans were held in such low esteem in Jesus' day. The Samaritans were Hebrews, but they were not called Jews.

 

[juantoo3]

Bump, wasn't showing after this afternoon's glitch.

 

[mee]

As i mentioned before, many things are happening in the Lords day, and the book of revelation is being revealed and uncovered, we are in the Lords day since 1914 when Jesus was made king of Gods heavenly kingdom goverment . by 1919 Babylon the Great had fallen, opening the way for God’s people to be released and restored, in one day as it were, to their land of spiritual prosperity. (Isaiah 66:8) By that year, Jehovah God and Jesus Christ, the Greater Darius and the Greater Cyrus, had maneuvered matters so that false religion could no longer keep a hold on Jehovah’s people. No more could it prevent them from serving Jehovah and making known to all who might hear that harlotlike Babylon the Great is doomed and the vindication of Jehovah’s sovereignty is at hand!—Isaiah 45:1-4; Daniel 5:30, 31. yes its all happening to Gods people . pure worship has been restored. spiritual israel and the great crowd are in a spiritual paradise, cant wait for the phisical paradise also . its all happening in this time of the end . let him who has ears hear what the spirit says to the congregations.

 

[Quahom1]

As i mentioned before, many things are happening in the Lords day, and the book of revelation is being revealed and uncovered, we are in the Lords day since 1914 when Jesus was made king of Gods heavenly kingdom goverment . by 1919 Babylon the Great had fallen, opening the way for God’s people to be released and restored, in one day as it were, to their land of spiritual prosperity. (Isaiah 66:8) By that year, Jehovah God and Jesus Christ, the Greater Darius and the Greater Cyrus, had maneuvered matters so that false religion could no longer keep a hold on Jehovah’s people. No more could it prevent them from serving Jehovah and making known to all who might hear that harlotlike Babylon the Great is doomed and the vindication of Jehovah’s sovereignty is at hand!—Isaiah 45:1-4; Daniel 5:30, 31. yes its all happening to Gods people . pure worship has been restored. spiritual israel and the great crowd are in a spiritual paradise, cant wait for the phisical paradise also . its all happening in this time of the end . let him who has ears hear what the spirit says to the congregations.

Well, at least the Mayan calendar is a bit more specific. The beginning of the end comes on 21 December 2012...

Wait a minute...Babylon the great has fallen? Somebody better tell the Roman Catholic church, the Pope and the city of Rome of that little bit of trivia...

The only "city" that fell in 1919 was Berlin, and the country of Germany at large.

The "spirit" can't say anything, it isn't a person Mee, just a manifestaion of force; you said so yourself, many times.

I honestly try to follow your logic and reasoning...but there doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to it.

I'm certain that God is coming back...I just don't know when, and He specfically states we aren't to worry about it, just be ready and aware when the time comes...

Like my dad once advised me...Living for tomorrow, means we miss what is going on today. And twenty four hours is about all we really get (sometimes not even that).

Moral of that story is, every breath you take, give thanks to God, and help your neighbor, if and when you can...

v/r

Q

 

[paganprophet]

You're assuming that the Bible's history reflects real history. Those tribes of Israel..you need to step beyond the Bible and do some research on Near Eastern history to find out for yourself that ancient biblical writers confused places with people, nations with people, and gods with people, and didn't tell the truth as it really was.

E.g. Asher wasn't an Israelite tribe but the god of Assyria. Gad too is another pagan god, a goat god I think as the headwaters of the Jordan flow out of Baal Gad spring, dedicated to a Pan-like goat god.

Judah scribes never told you that even the word "Benjamin" has nothing to do with Abrahamic monotheism nor does it mean a ravenous wolf as in the Genesis description--it refers directly to the ancient worship of Yamm, the Canaanite sea and river god of judgment. "Ben"= "Sons of" Yamm.

So the history you've accepted as real includes Israelite monotheistic tribes named after pagan gods and I think they included pagan believers as well. These tribes didn't disappear-they were part of the Canaanite pagans to which the Israelites also belonged before the fall of Canaan to Egypt.

 

[Quahom1]

You're assuming that the Bible's history reflects real history. Those tribes of Israel..you need to step beyond the Bible and do some research on Near Eastern history to find out for yourself that ancient biblical writers confused places with people, nations with people, and gods with people, and didn't tell the truth as it really was.

E.g. Asher wasn't an Israelite tribe but the god of Assyria. Gad too is another pagan god, a goat god I think as the headwaters of the Jordan flow out of Baal Gad spring, dedicated to a Pan-like goat god.

Judah scribes never told you that even the word "Benjamin" has nothing to do with Abrahamic monotheism nor does it mean a ravenous wolf as in the Genesis description--it refers directly to the ancient worship of Yamm, the Canaanite sea and river god of judgment. "Ben"= "Sons of" Yamm.

So the history you've accepted as real includes Israelite monotheistic tribes named after pagan gods and I think they included pagan believers as well. These tribes didn't disappear-they were part of the Canaanite pagans to which the Israelites also belonged before the fall of Canaan to Egypt.

Actually I assume nothing. You seem to presume however, that you have the historical accuracy that others lack.

Hebrew for example is specific in it distinction between that which is of Israel, and what is of foreign origins. Benjamin, does in fact mean "ravenous wolf". Ben/yamm, was pronounced "Bunyimm, or Bunyan", and not by the Hebrew people. Hebrews pronounced Benjamin as "Benyamin". The two words are distinct, and hold distinctly different meanings. And they are not of the same language.

v/r

Q