Spirituality or Hallucination?

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jiii

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I just watched a television show about Timothy Leary, detailing especially his promotion of LSD some decades ago. Timothy Leary, I personally believe, did just as much harm in society as good with his insisting that LSD ought to be used to "transform" the United States. However, for quite a few years, I have pondered the validity of the idea that LSD might be capable of imparting to some individuals a kind of spiritual experience. I was wondering what everyones ideas were on the topic of the use of hallucinogenic/psychedelic drugs in spirituality?

-jiii
 
The merit of your actions depends on your intentions.
The merit of your intentions depends on your view.
 
jiii said:
I was wondering what everyones ideas were on the topic of the use of hallucinogenic/psychedelic drugs in spirituality?

-jiii
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I recommend against it.

taijasi
 
I suppose one of my large interests in the relatively modern issue of "spiritual" LSD experience is based upon the long historical use of psychedelic drugs in religion. This is also one reason why I am moved not to completely dismiss the idea of LSD as a possible, albeit awkward, source of spiritual experience. I mean, the idea of using powerful psychedelics to get in touch with some kind of spiritual insight is nothing new, by any means. Actually, it is much more of a new development that psychedelic drugs are popularly considered incapable of doing so.

I add this partly for clarification, but also to try to elucidate that I'm not trying to use this thread to advocate drug use. I AM trying to use this thread to discuss a topic that I believe gets a blunt "yes" or "no" too often. I have posted this general idea at other messageboard sites in the past and have gotten long strings of incredibly brief answers, most of which appear with little or no supporting commentary. I can't say why that is, exactly, but it has happened consistently. It seems people try to avoid talking about these things more often than most any issue that could be raised in terms of spirituality, which certainly does make me that much more curious as to what people have to say about it beneath the frank answers. There is no reason to shy away from discussing these things just because the substance in question is dubbed illegal to possess. Discussion is not illegal :), and you don't have take drugs to have opinions that go deeper than "It's bad" or "It's just dandy".
 
Use of hallucinogenic drugs (which I have not tried yet, but would not rule out) seems to fit in well with my own view on the universe.

I believe strongly that everything I sense, everything that exists in my universe, is a part of my own mental continuum, a kind of fantasy world, if you like. I believe that the universe is very different for each of us.

With this in mind, using drugs like LSD or Mescaline can really, literally change the universe for an individual, but in the end, can only show a person what is already within his/her being.

Of course, it is implied in this theory that the drugs themselves are also a part of the imaginary universe, so the effects should also be achievable without drugs, through study, concentration and meditation, when a being begins to gain control of his/her mind and approaches enlightenment.
 
Seond what Samabudhi said.

The use of such drugs can definetly help in altering/showing one a different and new perspective. But these drugs can easily become a crutch that inhibits your ability to see past them. I wouldnt recomend it for anyone who doesnt know what they want out of the deal.
 
jiii said:
Okay...but that's a pretty brief thought;) Perhaps you might expound a bit as to why?
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I believe Ain Soph has put it best. Potential danger varies, but almost certainly they will slow our progress more than they will aid it. This becomes increasingly true the farther along the path we travel.

A shamen passing the peace pipe, or tripping mescaline, is not the same as a bunch of hippies (hey, I like hippies - lol). And neither is the same as an Initiate, most of the time, with some exceptions. Different conditions, different karma, but always a risk. Questionable reward, the farther we travel.

Namaskar,

taijasi
 
I was around in the sixties and had a friend who dropped acid fairly regularly on weekends given to him by Psychologist Gordon Alport a close professional colleague of Timothy Leary.. both these guys were Psychologists who first published some findings of use of LSD by prison inmates as I recall.

At one point my friend offered me some little bottles of his bluish liquid but I told him that I felt ingesting a foreign substance was not conducive I believed to spiritual advancement or enlightenment and after some argument he gave up trying to persuade me.

Anyway in the ensuing months my friend became progressively more withdrawn and eventually couldn't function on his job...then he disappeared.. I didn't see him for months and had no idea what happened to him. Finally when I did see him he was an emaciated shell of his former self and had become disabled ...unable to work at all.

- Art
 
People give short answers because either they have no experience or too much experience.

We say no, because we've believed the horror stories and they hype and as productive members of society feel an obligation to follow the company line.

Or we say no because we've done it in the past, and don't wish to encourage the same behaviour.

Or we say no for legal ramifications, don't want to be out there supporting illegal anything on the www for the world to see.

Or we say no because we've lost friends as the previous post mentions.

There are more reasons to say no, and the above are generalizations.

I personally believe the issue is illegality. Because it is illegal it is manufactured and distributed in substandard forms...because it is not administered by a doctor in calculated doses and in a controlled environment we increase the risk....the risk is increased again when capitolism is involved by notoriously unscrupulous individuals who do not have issues with modifying substances so as to increase revenue.

LSD made headlines when it came out as it was going to CURE 90% of those in mental institutions...brought to you by the same folks that provide us with Ritalin today....so nice they've eliminated hyperactive boys, isn't it?

Experimentation both field (illegal) and in controlled studies has both anecdotal and double blind placebo evidence that spiritual experiences can be had.

When reports of people thinking they could fly and jumping off buildings were going around our military experimented with it on soldiers to see if they could create someone who thought he was invincible...unfortuneately it was unpredictable...and after the experience some did develop a connection to oneness and could not pick up a gun and kill anything....so much for that...
 
Well, there's a difference between the role of hallucinagencis for spiritual development, and Leary wanting to transform the USA by dropping acid in the water supply. :)

Drugs for spiritual use - I think a lot at some of the indigenous cultures around the world show that transformation of world viewpoint through some form of mind-altering substances, is considered a normal part of spiritual development for the person and community around them.

The problem in the West is that our mind set and use is entirely built in different ways. The short of it is, yes, some people can use hallucinagenics for spiritual growth, but some people are inacapable of handling them on any level, in my opinion.

The point about hallucingenics - LSD, mescaline, psyilocybin - is that they can completely strip away the very fabric of reality, and not everyone can handle this. I remember myself there was usually a point near the start of a trip when I felt uncomfortable because I was still trying to hold onto aspects of reality that no longer made sense - and that a process of letting go was required.

Overall, I used to use cannabis for spiritual meditation and sometimes mushrooms, in order to explore my inner and outer self and my relationship with the universe. It was during a time of active spiritual growth, and I found I could work superbly with them as spiritual development tools as part of a general process of spiritual development. The things I saw and learned were amazing. It was like being a prophet of God.

Nowadays I wouldn't do any, simply because I'm not in a process of spiritual growth, and drugs just wouldn't fit in with how I'm working with my life.

But at some point, should my personal circumstances change for the worse, I could see myself going back to it all again.
 
I said:
Well, there's a difference between the role of hallucinagencis for spiritual development, and Leary wanting to transform the USA by dropping acid in the water supply. :)... But at some point, should my personal circumstances change for the worse, I could see myself going back to it all again.
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Is there a difference? Did Leary not want the US to see life from a different perspective? Was not his goal for a large percentage of folks to have a spiritual awakening andother viewpoint?

And should circumstances become worse....we'll go back to experimentation? Hmmmm I'm exactly the opposite.... I want to be selected for a mushroom experiment...I know people that have gone through it and have had great experiences. Having an MD dose you exactly what is needed to get to that exact spot that they've identified countless number of times, in an opportune setting with a guide to assist...what could be better?

I'm positive you have the werewithal and personal fortitude to not need sustenance due to outer circumstances and if and when it will be a conscious inner choice for growth.
 
Brian;

I personally find your honesty very refreshing, and agree with most of what you said, although my experiences were very limited.

I also found that when in a phase where spiritual development is sought and one is able to open him/herself to whatever may come, then a small amount of assistance to part the thin veils between worlds is beneficial. But in the West those who partake often view this sort of exercise as some sort of a license for escape from the drudgeries of reality, and therein the addicitve demons lie about.

flow....:cool:
 
originally posted by Ain Soph

The use of such drugs can definetly help in altering/showing one a different and new perspective. But these drugs can easily become a crutch that inhibits your ability to see past them. I wouldnt recomend it for anyone who doesnt know what they want out of the deal.
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I am reminded of Alan Watts' sentiment about LSD: "Once you get the message, hang up the phone."
originally posted by arthra

Anyway in the ensuing months my friend became progressively more withdrawn and eventually couldn't function on his job...then he disappeared.. I didn't see him for months and had no idea what happened to him. Finally when I did see him he was an emaciated shell of his former self and had become disabled ...unable to work at all.
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That is a pretty unfortunate story, arthra. Was it specifically LSD that did this, or had he started using other drugs?
originally Posted by I, Brian

Well, there's a difference between the role of hallucinagencis for spiritual development, and Leary wanting to transform the USA by dropping acid in the water supply.
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I, personally, share this viewpoint, as well. I think that many individuals that have used psychedelics in the past for personal spiritual experience are still somewhat weirded out by Leary's almost obsessive quest to get it down the throats of every adult he could find (and children as young as 9!). There is a difference, I think, between an individual holding that a drug like LSD can provide spiritual experience, and another individual that insists it should be the revolutionary drug of the nation. The difference is one of scope, really.
I know people that have gone through it and have had great experiences
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I have never used LSD in my life. There was a time in my life once when I used mushrooms, though, and I can tell you that it proved, paradoxically, to be one of the most terrifying instances in my life, and also one of the most life-changing in a positive sense. I was that person that got "stuck" in a bad trip, and frankly it was one of the most horrifying experiences I feel that I've ever endured.

Was it spiritual? Well, I won't jump to conclusions, though in my case, it lead to my becoming very interested in spirtuality, and whether or not the spiritual person that writes this post now was made so by mushrooms specifically...it's hard to say. Before I had taken mushrooms, I knew little or nothing of religion and spirituality played pretty much no part in my life. That was my attitude then. I noticed three particular aspects of the experience, which I can remember quite vivdly even today.

1) I got the distinct sensation that "I", whatever that is, most genuinely did not exist.

2) All of the preconceptions I had in my life flashed wildly before my mind's eye and suddenly I saw the relativity in every one of them...clearly.

3) I felt a distinct change in myself. Where normally it would seem that body follows the mind in our day to day business, I felt as if I couldn't tell the difference. My mind wasn't leading my body, my body wasn't leading my mind.

Now, these experiences were not "happy-joy-joy" at the time ;) The terror that these perspectives induced was unbearable, and I was, in the most extreme use of the word, horrified by them. I think that in the weeks that followed many of my friends wondered if I was ever going to be okay :D What was terrifying me was that I had no way of making sense of any of these experiences. I couldn't simply forget the powerful sensations I'd had, but they weren't intelligible to me whatsoever. When I picked up a book on Buddhism some time afterwards, and saw the notion of "no-self", I was startled beyond belief, and somehow, things began to change. For once, I felt like spirituality wasn't simply a myth. In the years that followed, I became interested in many aspects of world religion and philosophy, also taking a deeper look at Christianity (a religion which I had previously denounced) to find out it wasn't simply the the oppressive institution I once believed.

Spiritual? I, personally, think so. Necessary...well, I don't know...maybe. In one sense, I wonder if what mushrooms showed me back then was something I could've learned and experienced over time without their use. But, in another sense, I think that the reason these experiences proved so frigthening and amazingly difficult to digest was because I had built up an amazing resistance to experiencing those aspects of consciousness, a resistance I wasn't even aware existed. It is that which makes me wonder if what I experienced that day was most certainly spiritual...though if it was, it wasn't in a joyous sense, necessarily. The joy came later ;)
 
jiii quoted my post:

"Anyway in the ensuing months my friend became progressively more
withdrawn and eventually couldn't function on his job...then he disappeared..
I didn't see him for months and had no idea what happened to him.
Finally when I did see him he was an emaciated shell of his former self and
had become disabled ...unable to work at all."

and asked:

That is a pretty unfortunate story, arthra. Was it specifically LSD
that did this, or had he started using other drugs?

My response:

Yes, he had a film case of bottles of LSD bluish liquid and would take as I recall a bottle over a weekend.. He told me he met Gordon Alport who gave them to him while in Mexico... He was an honest sort of person so I accepted his statement on face value.

I used to work with him over a period of about six months so we became pretty close friends.

His deterioration was very sad indeed to see.

- Art
 
arthra-

Again, a most unfortunate incident. LSD and related drugs are certainly not "harmless" substances, and it is precisely these stories that are important to take into consideration when appraising psychedelic drugs. I don't think this instance is representative of most users, but it does certainly happen. For my part, I believe that if I persisted in taking hallucinogenics after my first and only experience with mushrooms, the results could've been truly tragic along similar lines. Then again, I have known many people that live pretty ordinary lives that went through phases when they "tripped" every week (some for purely recreational purposes, some for supposed 'insight'). I can't even begin to fathom doing this myself (the experience was simply too intense), but they seem to have emerged relatively unscathed. People are an unpredictable bunch, and that, I believe, is the foremost difficulty with LSD and it's application for spiritual experience.

-jiii
 
I have never taken LSD, and would be scared to death to do so. My son took it once and had a psychotic episode. I feel that if I took some, I would do the same.

For me, a chemical has little or nothing to do with spirituality, which is not about instant gratification.
 
I think the experience jii raises a very good one, and underlines why I wouldn't recommend a general dosing of any general population with it. The experience can involve a general stripping away of your sense of reality in an utterly profound sense, and I don't think many people can enjoy that if done without proper consent and knowlegde. Doing otherwise I think would be utterly irresponsible in any circumstances.

On my first trip I took too many mushrooms, because I was eager for the experience. It wasn't pleasant, but not enough to put me off trying again. Afterwards I simply made a point of being more measured with dosage, so I could "trip out" and yet still feel comfortable with it.

That of course was predispositioned by a willingness to lose my sense of reality, and I never had a bad experience after that, excepting once when I took too few mushrooms and had barely any affect. :)

I think - as with many things in life - if you take the reponsibility to take something that will affect you, then moderation is the key. Drinking a full bottle of whisky in a couple of hours will give you an effect of drunkeness, but it's probably not going to be as pleasant as a couple of pints with friends at the pub. :)

Another point about hallucinagenics - environment I found was key. After my first, I made sure after that whenever I was going to trip, I'd be in and around surroundings that I could be comfortable in for the next 4-6 hours.

Also, I was always pretty sparing as well - maybe around 12 trips in my life, mostly in my early twenties. Hallucinagens showed my boundaries I could work with, but when I was going through profound spiritual growth, I used cannabis to revisit them.

Overall, I think it's fair that being responsible with hallucinagenics can lead to very useful personal developmental insights. However, not everyone is necessarily suited to it, and unless I've got my understanding of anthropology very wrong, even in cultures where hallucinagenics are used, it's either sparingly, or else the tribal shaman who is more likely to use it with any kind of regularity.
 
Returning to the original question - can hallucinagenics impart a spiritual experience? Certainly I would agree it's the case, and it's no more a hallucination than the spiritual experience is.

However, as with both, it's a very personal experience, and everyone has their boundaries. I certainly wouldn't advocate anyone looking for a spiritual experience to take any specific drug precisely because of the personal nature of it - but with the right mindset, some "mind expanding" experiences may be useful.

I wouldn't take hallucinagenics now, because I'm not in the right mind set for it. Maybe one day in the future I would be, but for the time being, I have no interest in doing so, and would probably not enjoy the experience because it would be difficult to focus into a constructive spiritual experience while I'm not in a process of seeking spiritual development.

Anyway, I thought people who've never taken any would find this interesting - a trip in a controlled envionment, with an artist asked to draw at various stages of it.

Bear in mind that at all times he is trying to draw what he sees - and how difficult the process becomes for him as his sense of reality disappears:
http://www.boreme.com/boreme/funny-2004/i_lsd_test-p1.php
 
The issue is dosage and preparation....too low dosage one gets a buzz, a feeling of euphoria, but also a need for more. Too much, one can misinterpret their environment, have the bad trip, especially if they are not aware that conventional reality will completely disolve.

As the experimentation both medical and personal has shown...when it is just right...a change occurs, an event, call it spiritual or not, one becomes aware that things are not as they seem, that they can be in this world but not of it, and then for the rest of their life this experience changes perception, they become more connected (spiritual?) and have no desire to trip again.

All good reasons not to experiment with street drugs.
 
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