What defines a Christian?

[RubySera_Martin]

I was challenged on another thread regarding my status as Christian. Am I a Christian? I have no idea. I just know what I believe. And it's not traditional orthodox Christian beliefs.

We've looked at liberal Christianity and progressive Christianity but I don't think we have yet discussed what qualifies a person to call him or herself a Christian.

If you look up the beliefs of Liberal Protestants on Beliefnet, you will see that a person does not necessarily have to believe in the miracles, the resurrection, or even in Jesus as the Christ in order to identify as a Christian.

I think the only people who really care are the fundamentalists. Given that fundamentalism is a relatively new religion itself, it seems somewhat preposterous that fundamentalists presume to define Christianity for the rest of the world.

Outside traditional orthodox Christian belief, what defines a person as Christian? What do liberal Christians think defines them as Christians rather than some other name such as humanists?

It is hoped that, while anyone can respond, no one will tell another person that his or her beliefs do not qualify as Christian.

 

[neosnoia]

I think the only people who really care are the fundamentalists.

Hi Ruby.

One point I feel needs to be made here, fundamentalism and orthodoxy are not the same, although fundamentalists will often label themselves as orthodox.

I, for example, care deeply about the miracles, Jesus divinity and the resurrection, but I am most definitely not a fundamentalist. I probably don't qualify as orthodox either, but I'm closer to mainstream or orthodox (little O) Christianity than I am to liberalism or fundamentalism.

I did hold a viewpoint similar to what seems to be your current viewpoint for quite a few years though.

 

[RubySera_Martin]

Hi Ruby.

One point I feel needs to be made here, fundamentalism and orthodoxy are not the same, although fundamentalists will often label themselves as orthodox.

So how do you defend your position in the case of fundamentalist Roman Catholics or fundamentalist Lutherans, etc.? I don't think you can get more orthodox than RC. And you can get fundamentalism inside the RC Church. For the fundamentalist Protestants there is the infallible Bible. For the fundamentalist RC, there is the infallible pope.

I, for example, care deeply about the miracles, Jesus divinity and the resurrection, but I am most definitely not a fundamentalist. I probably don't qualify as orthodox either, but I'm closer to mainstream or orthodox (little O) Christianity than I am to liberalism or fundamentalism.

Do I have you confused with someone else? I thought you said you're not Christian. Maybe that was jiii.

I did hold a viewpoint similar to what seems to be your current viewpoint for quite a few years though.

So what is my view point? Like I say, I don't know if I'm a Christian or not; I just know what I believe. Some people (for the most part fundamentalists) tell me that is NOT Christian. Others will tell me I'm a good Christian even without knowing any specifics about my beliefs.

 

[neosnoia]

Do I have you confused with someone else? I thought you said you're not Christian. Maybe that was jiii.

That was Jiii.

I did hold a viewpoint similar to what seems to be your current viewpoint for quite a few years though.

So what is my view point?

That's why I said seems to be ... I don't claim to know your viewpoint for sure. Only you can know that. I'm basing my comment on your posts.

Like I say, I don't know if I'm a Christian or not; I just know what I believe.

I was told I wasn't Christian by many "Christians" when I was "liberal" (crap I hate labels). I'd probably still be told I'm not Christian by fundamentalists and other legalistic Christians. I think I'd currently be accepted as Christian from the more creed centered traditions, but I don't know for sure.

I know that I reached a point, for myself, where I had to either explore the infinite richness that traditional, creedal, mystical Christianity had to offer, or I'd need to leave Christianity altogether. Others find satisfaction in the historical man named Jesus, without all the "mythological" trappings. I am not one of those people.

Dinner's here, gotta go!

 

[jiii]

Ruby-

Given that fundamentalism is a relatively new religion itself, it seems somewhat preposterous that fundamentalists presume to define Christianity for the rest of the world.

I think you should be aware that there are two different meanings of the word 'fundamentalist'. In my experience, it usually refers to this very general definition:

"A usually religious movement or point of view characterized by a return to fundamental principles, by rigid adherence to those principles, and often by intolerance of other views and opposition to secularism."

Though I see now that you may be referring to it as this definition:

"An organized, militant Evangelical movement originating in the United States in the late 19th and early 20th century in opposition to Protestant Liberalism and secularism, insisting on the inerrancy of Scripture."

These definitions come from the dictionary, I did not make them up. Talking about the general definition as opposed to the very specific definition is bound to get a lot of people tripped up. Maybe, I think, this is why I've had some difficulty talking with you about topics involving 'fundamentalism'. By the general definition, some people that don't adhere to Fundamentalism (the specific religion) are still considered by some to be fundamentalists.

I don't have a lot to say beyond that, just adding the note.

-jiii

 

[RubySera_Martin]

That's why I said seems to be ... I don't claim to know your viewpoint for sure. Only you can know that. I'm basing my comment on your posts.

Funny, I didn't see the word "seems" until I had already written my response.

I was told I wasn't Christian by many "Christians" when I was "liberal" (crap I hate labels). I'd probably still be told I'm not Christian by fundamentalists and other legalistic Christians. I think I'd currently be accepted as Christian from the more creed centered traditions, but I don't know for sure.

You sound like a person I'm going to like. I have no idea in what part of the world you live. I think there is more "room to breathe" in Canada than in some parts of the US. When I first read news on the internet about stuff that was happening in the US it felt suffocating, like I couldn't breathe. The religious right is so overtly religious.

 

[neosnoia]

Funny, I didn't see the word "seems" until I had already written my response.

I didn't add it afterward, I promise.

 

[RubySera_Martin]

Ruby-



I think you should be aware that there are two different meanings of the word 'fundamentalist'. In my experience, it usually refers to this very general definition:

"A usually religious movement or point of view characterized by a return to fundamental principles, by rigid adherence to those principles, and often by intolerance of other views and opposition to secularism."

Though I see now that you may be referring to it as this definition:

"An organized, militant Evangelical movement originating in the United States in the late 19th and early 20th century in opposition to Protestant Liberalism and secularism, insisting on the inerrancy of Scripture."

These definitions come from the dictionary, I did not make them up. Talking about the general definition as opposed to the very specific definition is bound to get a lot of people tripped up. Maybe, I think, this is why I've had some difficulty talking with you about topics involving 'fundamentalism'. By the general definition, some people that don't adhere to Fundamentalism (the specific religion) are still considered by some to be fundamentalists.

I don't have a lot to say beyond that, just adding the note.

-jiii

Jiii, I don't think there is a specific religion that goes by the name fundamentalism. You told me on another thread that you're not a scholar. Glad you told me because you speak with the confidence and authority of a scholar who specializes in this stuff. I am doing my MA thesis on the history of fundamentalism.

You do know stuff I don't but I have read quite a bit on it, plus I have talked with professors in Canada and the US who specialize in it. I am familiar with the Reformation and with various meanings of the term fundamentalist.

I suspect our communication problem may have had to do with the fact that you talk as though you are a scholar but you don't use the normal terminology scholars use when talking on this topic. You put your thoughts together in a very different pattern, which automatically gives a different meaning to the words you use. Now that I know you're an auto mechanic who likes to read about religion as a hobby chances are I will better understand what you are saying. Plus, I won't put as much stock in it, either .

Ruby

 

[RubySera_Martin]

I didn't add it afterward, I promise.

I know you are speaking the truth because I saw it before I posted. Just not before I had written it

Why did I leave it in? Well, I didn't know you all that well. Some people don't differentiate between these subtle shades of meaning. Besides, given my difficulty deciding whether I'm in or out when it comes to Christianity it seemed another person might have a clearer perspective on it.

 

[jiii]

Now that I know you're an auto mechanic who likes to read about religion as a hobby chances are I will better understand what you are saying. Plus, I won't put as much stock in it, either.

Yep Just a "grass-roots" guy. Don't mean to write like a scholar...I guess it's just how I write. So far as "this stuff", I have some difficulty with it because I'm not particularly familiar with in-depth knowledge of Chrisitianity. I thought I kept it pretty general, though (maybe it's these generalizations that are kind of rubbing with your in-depth knowledge). I do tend to make many generalizations. So, yes, I'm sure that in some cases I may refer to things without using the normal meaning that I guess scholars would attribute. I'm sorry about that, and I'll keep it in mind in the future.

 

[RubySera_Martin]

I'm still thinking about what defines a Christian. It's more than just finding my own identity. I am very much interested in the study of religion for its own sake. There are very many people in North America who have been very seriously hurt by fundamentalist Christianity. I am but one of hundreds, possibly thousands.

Thus my focus is fundamentalism. However, in order to understand and identify fundamentalism I need to be very familiar with the general religious landscape of North America in which fundamentalism exists. (It also exists in other parts of the world but my focus is North America.) A major riddle is the fact that Christianity is not "going away" as predicted several decades ago.

It seems that people will not throw out their inherited religious legacy. No matter what level of education, they still go to church and profess to believe in the age-old beliefs. It's part of who we are. A thousand years of indoctrination, love, and devotion for Jesus is not going to be easily replaced. At the same time, there seems to be a growing number of Christians who reject the miracles, the virgin birth, the resurrection and ascension. However, they continue to identify as Christians.

So what is it that makes people think of themselves as Christians? I think it is a way of thinking, a way of seeing the universe and all that is in it. Everybody knows what is meant by the term "God." There is nobody who has not heard of Jesus. (I am obviously referring to people who grew up inside of Christianity or its descendents, which I speculate is pretty much the entire white population of the planet, plus many others.) The church calendar organizes our year, determines when and what holidays we celebrate, underlies the very superstructure of our commerse and economy. It is who we are.
So strong is the Christian influence on the global level right now, and has been for five hundred years, that there is not a culture on earth that has not been impacted in some way or other by Christianity. This thing is not going to go away.

I am also seeking to understand what alternative theology we might come up with that is not so harmful as traditional orthodox Christian theology seems to be. I may be wrong but I speculate that the biggest harm from existing Christian theology is its undeniable contradictions with what we intellectually know, combined with automatic reliance on "what the Bible says."

 

[RubySera_Martin]

Yep Just a "grass-roots" guy. Don't mean to write like a scholar...I guess it's just how I write. So far as "this stuff", I have some difficulty with it because I'm not particularly familiar with in-depth knowledge of Chrisitianity. I thought I kept it pretty general, though (maybe it's these generalizations that are kind of rubbing with your in-depth knowledge). I do tend to make many generalizations. So, yes, I'm sure that in some cases I may refer to things without using the normal meaning that I guess scholars would attribute. I'm sorry about that, and I'll keep it in mind in the future.

Jiii, I didn't mean to shut you up. Just exploring the communication problems we've been having, since you seemed to want to look at it a bit. I am quite sure I will understand you better in the future because of this conversation. So please don't withdraw and shut up just because of a few misunderstandings.

I do wonder how to pronounce your name jiii. J-3 or something like that?

Ruby

 

[RubySera_Martin]

It is with considerable embarrassment and regret that I write this. I have been made aware that there are whole populations of Christians outside the pale-faced North American and West European societies. My apologies to all of you. I am very sorry.

Ruby

 

[neosnoia]

It is with considerable embarrassment and regret that I write this. I have been made aware that there are whole populations of Christians outside the pale-faced North American and West European societies. My apologies to all of you. I am very sorry.

Ruby

Hey, no worries. I'm just now coming to find out how very different Christianity is in places like South America and Africa. Many Americans would consider such types of Christianity very heretical indeed (and might not even recognize them as Christian at all). I like to think that God is bigger than that; much much much bigger. Infinite even.

 

[jiii]

Jiii, I didn't mean to shut you up. Just exploring the communication problems we've been having, since you seemed to want to look at it a bit. I am quite sure I will understand you better in the future because of this conversation. So please don't withdraw and shut up just because of a few misunderstandings.

I didn't think you did, and I didn't plan to. No offense was taken, Ruby.

Yeah, jiii is just the alias I use for all my logins on the Internet...it's easy to remember that way. JIII is, itself, short for John the 3rd. My name is actually Justin, but my father was John Jr and I was his first-born. A play on a past possibility I guess.

 

[cavalier]

I haven't studied this and can't back it up in any way, but my views are as follows.

To be a Christian, you must believe in some kind of God, old guy on a white cloud, ground of all being, whatever. I guess you would have to want also to be closer to that God, to feel his, its presence more deeply. You would have to believe in and follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. To do this though you would not necessarily have to believe that in the resurrection, or even that this man called Jesus ever existed.

Just my opinion and it might change later.

 

[kenod]

As a self-confessed fundamentalist, I probably should not intrude into this discussion. I am sorry, Ruby, that you feel you have been hurt by fundamentalism ... just checking, but are you sure it was fundamentalism or some particular fundamentalists?

I was not brought up as a church-going Christian, and I have a higher than average level of education. Since I have experienced the supernatural personally (and I do not ask anyone to take my word for this) I consider that miracles - things we cannot explain - are a part of everyday life, and I find it interesting to ask "how did God do that?" Of course, I usually don't get a very definitive answer, but string theorists and their notions of other dimensions and universes seem to be offering a few clues, I think.

Even those who are not convinced miracles occur, would probably be persuaded that faith can bring about very significant changes in our physical bodies ... usually in the way of healing. I don't think there would be many of us who have not, at least on one occasion, experienced some sort of ESP communication. To deny the supernatural, seems like denying a part of nature ... the part we do not understand.

Fundamentalists believe the Bible is literally true, but that figurative language is sometimes used (eg the days in the story of creation). The virgin birth, the miracles, and the resurrection of Jesus, are stated as factual events, and have been part of the Christian faith for most of the past 2000 years. Is it really helpful for people to now want to redefine the term? If you think Jesus was just a man with a good philosophy, then go with "Liberal Christian". If you think Jesus was just one of many good men with good philosophies, then "humanist" might suit better.

 

[wil]

To be a Christian, you must believe in some kind of God, old guy on a white cloud, ground of all being, whatever

yikes.....the white guy in the cloud vision to me has done Christianity so much of a disservice....if that was a prerequisite, to believe in a lightning bolt throwing, locust spewing, judgemental G-d, I'd be outta here.

What defines Christianity...in the LIBERAL CHRISTIANITY THREAD!

Well it ain't the same definition that the rules of the Christainity board must attune to.

I think Christian is a space, a space in your attitude, that doesn't even need to have knowledge of Jesus to become unfolded and opened. Flip side, being aware Christ, making claims to be saved, attending service regularly, going to confession, these don't make one a Christian on their own.

Love the Lord your G-d with all your heart, your soul, your mind.

Be aware of the miracles of creation, the sanctity of life, and strive to live as though it mattered.

Love your nieghbor as yourself.

Wake up and smell the roses, we are all one, be aware that every action you take against another is an action against you and yours as well.

my thoughts.

 

[cavalier]

you must believe in some kind of God, old guy on a white cloud, ground of all being, whatever.

yikes.....the white guy in the cloud vision to me has done Christianity so much of a disservice....if that was a prerequisite, to believe in a lightning bolt throwing, locust spewing, judgemental G-d, I'd be outta here.

Maybe I didn't make it very clear. I was never suggesting that belief in that kind of God was a pre-requisite, simply that belief in some kind of God was. The old guy on the cloud was just one of the possiblities I gave for different views of God.

Love the Lord your G-d with all your heart, your soul, your mind.

Be aware of the miracles of creation, the sanctity of life, and strive to live as though it mattered.

Love your nieghbor as yourself.

Wake up and smell the roses, we are all one, be aware that every action you take against another is an action against you and yours as well.

What is there in this that would differentiate it from some other religions?

 

[RubySera_Martin]

Kenod, I think the topic of this thread is: What defines a Christian? NOT: What defines a fundamentalist?

It will be thoughtful of you in the future to stick to the topic of the thread.

Thank you.

Ruby