A problem?

Awaiting_the_fifth said:
Please excuse this intrusion onto your board, I do not mean to be deliberately contensious, but there is something I do not understand about this.

You say that your faith minimises rituals, but each individual must say daily prayers AND recite this phrase 95 times? daily?

That actually sounds like an awful lot of ritual.
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Hello Awaiting the Fifth,

You are welcome to ask any question your heart desires with no feelings of intrusion or contention from anyone here.

Bahá'u'lláh warned us about how rituals can bring harm to the moral evolution of mankind. Certain rituals of the past have been abolished by Bahá'u'lláh like the uncleanness for the woman which thus forbid her from observing duties of prayer and fasting. [T]hese forms and rituals differ in the various churches and amongst the different sects, and even contradict one another; giving rise to discord, hatred, and disunion. (Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 143) Congregational prayer is another example of ritual that has been abolished except for the Prayer for the Dead.

This quote will farther explain:

Congregational prayer, in the sense of formal obligatory prayer which is to be recited in accordance with a prescribed ritual as, for example, is the custom in Islam where Friday prayer in the mosque is led by an imam, has been annulled in the Bahá'í Dispensation. The Prayer for the Dead is the only congregational prayer prescribed by Bahá'í law. It is to be recited by one of those present while the remainder of the party stands in silence; the reader has no special status. The congregation is not required to face the Qiblih.
The three daily Obligatory Prayers are to be recited individually, not in congregation. There is no prescribed way for the recital of the many other Bahá'í prayers, and all are free to use such non-obligatory prayers in gatherings or individually as they please. In this regard, Shoghi Effendi states that ...although the friends are thus left to follow their own inclination, ... they should take the utmost care that any manner they practise should not acquire too rigid a character, and thus develop into an institution. This is a point which the friends should always bear in mind, lest they deviate from the clear path indicated in the Teachings. (Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 173)

The act of stating "Allah'u'Abha" 95 times a day is a ritual of sorts, although, because it is said individually, in privacy, it is more of a spiritual connection with God, Himself, than an out-right ritual. It is a way to cleanse the channel between your soul and God.

This type of prayer is not meant to give rise to discord, hatred, or disunion, thus I, personally, do not see this it as ritualistic. For, how else are we to communicate with God, the Unknowable, the Wise? What better way is there than to pray individually, in private? There is no one present to judge, to offer criticism, or to chastise. Just God, and He is present only to help strengthen our soul.

I hope my explanation has offered a bit more understanding to this spiritual act of prayer.

warmly
Sassafras
 
Postmaster said:
I was going to mention that too but instead mentioned OCD and religion because the Baha'i faith considers science one and one with religion and had the idea that rituals were abolished, as what I read off Baha'i sites?. Was surprised to feel like you were trying to undermine me by one of the posts, undermine my faith but not myself! If you get frustrated by all my questions simply don’t answer them, you’re not obliged to.
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Just curious Postmaster... Who do you feel is "trying to undermine" you? or your faith? Please elaborate...

- Art
 
Hello Sassafras!

Good to see your post today....

One reason ritual is reduced to the minimum in Baha'i Faith I think is that we do not have a professional priesthood or clergy... and no "ceremonial rituals" are observed in Baha'i Houses of Worship.

In many religions the Priest or Mullah or what have you is also the expert on ritual and is trained to use say a sacred language such as Sanskrit or Latin or maybe Arabic...etc. Also there are rituals in the temples and churches and so on.

- Art
 
Within 500 years of Christ, there was a few similar or very similar messages to Christianity some before Christ. But they never took off, even when the emperor of Rome was practising, take for instance Mithraism. Christianity was well marketed for the masses and the west and so won. I have scrutinised Christianity to the max, I still have solid reasons to still be a Christian regardless. The Baha'i faith is not very convenient to the masses or the west regardless of how well the core idea is for society i.e. progressive revelation. And I think that’s what discredits some of the possibly very important and truthful factors of the faith. Same would apply to Manichaeism


2 years ago I resisted to even believing god existed and was very cynical towards any religion, something just hit me one day.
 
Forgot to say why Mithraism went down hill, simply because it was an all male religion, but some very similar concepts to Christianity. That wasn't the only one there were more similar cults and religions even before of saviors preaching such ideas of social equality etc. Wish I remembered them haha.. Baha'i's aren’t allowed to drink alcohol, it's a multi billion pounds industry and the west lives off it.
 
Many thanks for your response.

I am getting the impression that to Baha'is, a ritual is something that is shared with a congregation of people, hence excempting your solitary prayer. Is this a fair assesment?

Also, I find this statement puzzling:

IMSassafras said:
This type of prayer is not meant to give rise to discord, hatred, or disunion, thus I, personally, do not see this it as ritualistic.
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You seem to be saying that your rituals are actually not rituals, simply because they do not produce discord.

I am quite certain that no religious group would consider that their own rituals DO produce such discord.


Just out of interest, my own practice is mostly a solitary one. I have a shrine in my home where I sit alone and meditate. Would this be considered a ritual?
 
Hmmm..

Postmaster...

I suppose we're kind of "free falling" here through various topics..If you'd like to focus on something say I'll do my best to respond.

Please be assured Awaiting and Postmaster that we Baha'is are not looking down on you for having the religious practices you have... It's defintely your business.

I suppose someone could argue that waking up in the morning and brushing their teeth is a kind of "ritual"...Well maybe..but I like to clean my stale mouth?!

Here's a definition of ritual that might help:

The prescribed order of a religious ceremony.
The body of ceremonies or rites used in a place of worship.

The prescribed form of conducting a formal secular ceremony: the ritual of an inauguration.
The body of ceremonies used by a fraternal organization.

_____________________________

Having a minimum of rituals means to me there are less things for people to cling to and argue about

Take "Baptism" as an example... How many ways are there to baptise..and what words are used and when should baptism occur..at what stage in life? this is just an example of how contention can occur around a ritual...

I was responding earlier though that we have a minimum of rituals in our Faith and gave some reasons for this.

- Art
 
Hi, Awaiting!

Please note tht you're most welcome here, and not in the least "intruding!"

Further any and all questions are always most welcome! :)

Awaiting_the_fifth said:
You say that your faith minimises rituals, but each individual must say daily prayers AND recite this phrase 95 times? daily?
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But this can indeed be minimal!

If one chooses the short obligatory prayer, all this may take nearly a minute and a half to complete! . . . :)

It's reasonably hard, I suggest, to do anything whatever and have it take much less time than this!

Best,

Bruce
 
Hi, Postmaster!

Postmaster said:
The Baha'i faith is not very convenient to the masses or the west regardless of how well the core idea is for society i.e. progressive revelation. And I think that’s what discredits some of the possibly very important and truthful factors of the faith.
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Why on earth not?!

I have no idea whatever what you mean by the Baha'i Faith's being "inconvenient." Nor that this supposedly "discredits" the Faith.

Please explain.

Regards,

Bruce
 
So your telling me it would be ok to destroy a massive part of western culture, destroy many buissnesses and liviley hoods. Look at it from a biological point of view, we have the best alcohol dehydrogenase genes in the world too, from drinking it since ancient times. Will never happen, a dead end. We didn't stop eating pork when christinity came along either. The Baha'i faith can't compromise though.
 
Postmaster said:
So your telling me it would be ok to destroy a massive part of western culture, destroy many buissnesses and liviley hoods restructure takes time and money. Look at it from a biological point of view, we have the best alcohol dehydrogenase genes in the world too, from drinking it since ancient times. Will never happen, a dead end. We didn't stop eating pork when christinity came along either. The Baha'i faith can't compromise though.
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Hi Postmaster,

Nice to read you again.

No, i don't think that's what we're saying at all.

None of what the Baha'i Faith proposes will be done by force. It is all done on a voluntary basis. We would never make anyone do anything according to our beliefs. What has to happen is that hearts will change and recognize Baha'u'llah on their own, then and only then will these things happen. By the choice of the individuals involved.

Does that help?

Have a great day!

Loving Greetings, Amy
 
I'm talking about the theology of the Baha'i faith with the acceptance of people of course destroy the alcohol culture of the west. But what I'm saying it will never happen, I would even bet my car on it! Considering this is Gods next message, he didn't make it too appealing to his people on a social perspective. After all isn't religion made up of both the social and spiritual parts? As is said in the Baha'i faith? Also if a Baha'i drank alcohol would that make them a covenant breaker?
 
Postmaster said:
I'm talking about the theology of the Baha'i faith with the acceptance of people of course destroy the alcohol culture of the west. But what I'm saying it will never happen, I would even bet my car on it! Considering this is Gods next message, he didn't make it too appealing to his people on a social perspective. After all isn't religion made up of both the social and spiritual parts? As is said in the Baha'i faith? Also if a Baha'i drank alcohol would that make them a covenant breaker?
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Hi again,

you're probably right, i doubt that it occurs within my lifetime as well. but as to ever happening...i believe it will, if it truly is God's Will, it will happen eventually. Remember the Baha'i Revelation is the umbrella under which all future Revelations for the next 500,000 years will be under. Just because we in this culture, in this age, find it difficult to imagine happening does not mean it won't.

God's laws are not meant to be comfortable. Many of them are tests for those who follow them, does that mean they are wrong? Or that we just have alot of growing up to do?

And no, that would not make a person a covenant breaker. The designation of Covenant Breaker is not handed out lightly, and it only applies to those few individuals who try to usurp authority for themselves but only after repeated attempts to help them try to rectify their conduct.

the reason alcohol is not permitted in this dispensation is because it clouds our vision. the reason it was allowed in the past is because it was often healthier than drinking the water, in the past water was often the cause of illness as we didn't have the capacity to purify it, alcohol was allowed and considered safer. But times have changed. ;)

at least that's my understanding.
 
So in a Baha'i point of view Alcohol will be a substance that will eventually be rejected by humanity. But what you forget to mention is Arab Muslims loved there caffeine from coffee etc and even bought it into Europe. Isn't that too a substances which alters your state of mind by stimulation? Just as Alcohol Alters your state of mind by sedation? Yeah we used alcohol as a way of sterilisation but thats just a factor.
 
Hello my old friend Postmaster!

You may be over reacting just a tad on this alcohol issue...

Maybe you live around a place that is dependent on grapes ...

But alcohol will be around I'm sure..For us Baha'is because it could be used as a fuel or a cleanser.

Remember we're talking here about Baha'i law that forbids alcohol use for Baha'is.

Where I happen to live people do abuse alcohol a lot...

It accounts for lost days at work, accidents, health problems and driving under the influence but even so and not withstanding as far as I know we Baha'is have never initiated a prohibition campaign against all the alcohol abuse among the general population around us.

In friendship!

- Art
 
Caffeine has negative effects too and regardless of the negative effects of alcohol that still doesn't change the fact that the west will ever give it up. Largest alcohol abuse countries in the world seem to abuse everything, food (obesity ), drugs, sexuality etc. Try and enjoy a glass of red wine with your meal in France, Italy or Greece.
 
nothing shows up in ocean when i type in 'caffeine', so can't tell you. either it's referred to in something that hasn't been translated yet, or it's not an issue in this dispensation. maybe the next one ;)
 
Cup of coffee?

Here is an interesting piece from Baha'i history of how Abdul-Baha advised Shoghi Effendi against drinking coffee!

At the same time, the treachery of the Covenant-breakers in the Holy Land reached a point where the Master felt compelled to warn his young grandson against drinking coffee in the homes of any of the Bahá'ís in the fear that he would be poisoned. At the age of fifteen, however, Shoghi Effendi was forced to drink from the bitter cup of sorrow which the machinations of Covenant-breakers would continue to fill for the rest of his life. At this young age, he was denied the opportunity to travel to North America with his grandfather on what was to become a historic journey. One member of the party accompanying `Abdu'l-Bahá to the West, later to become a Covenant-breaker, conspired with Italian health officials in Naples, and falsely claimed that the boy's eyes were diseased. Shoghi Effendi was heartbroken.

Source:

http://bahai-library.com/biography/life.shoghi.effendi.html

I would be willing to "bet" (if gambling were permitted) that some of our most seasoned Baha'is here have never heard the story about the Master advising Shoghi Effendi not to drink coffee...

- Art
 
That’s an other point.. Industries would put a propaganda campaign against the Baha'i faith if it was to gain any serious popularity.

If I was magically granted the choice for the Baha'i faith to stay or disappear I would say stay since it's more positive then some other monotheist religions out there. I'd never convert but I say there are possibly some very important teachings. Personally don’t think it's going to hit off in the west. I see it gaining more popularity in Asia.
 
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