what happens after we die

S

shadowman

Guest
is there any form of punishment? for bad mistakes comitted against humans?
 
You mean as opposed to getting off scott free for all our shortcomings? Yes, I believe there are "punishments" for things you have done in life, provided you have not paid them back already, but not in the same sense as Abrahmic religions put forth. Either you are purged in some kind of purgatorial state to try and repay some of your debts, or you are reincarnated to pay for them in your next life, or one then the other.

It's all about karma and the law of recompensation. You reap what you sow, what goes around comes around, etc. But, I am fairly sure that there is no pointy eared, sunburned fellow ready to make our afterlife a living hell. Pun intended, of course. Well, that's what I believe.

I'm not sure if I understand the point of this thread though. Could you be more specific?
 
In that case, and considering your own steps being taken to repair these offenses against humanity, I would say not to worry too much about the afterlife. Most people are reincarnated anyway, with a slight pause in between I believe, and since you are repentant of your actions I don't think you have much to fear in the afterlife or what have you. IMO, punishment in the afterlife is for those who were unrepentant during their life here. But those that do their best to right their wrongs and are truly sorry for what they have doine, have already started paying off their bad karma debt, and so they will have less to purge in the afterlife.

In other words, repent and be copacetic. Just out of curiosity, what belief system or religion do you subscribe to?

Edit: You'd probably be better off just reading what they're saying in that thread, with regards to repentance. Taijasi has some nice stuff there.
 
positive energy activates constant elevation (peace)

seek knowledge

do good and good will follow and vice versa

CONSCIOUSLY live within the balance of the various environments that make up life (family, relationship, nature, community)
 
Those all sounds like good ideas to me. I have been very fortunate though, to where my life has been pretty pleasant, aside form insignificant things that I focus on for whatever reason.

I did have a brief stint of horrifying fear when I was breaking from Christianity, what with all the mainstream interpretations of hellfire and brimstone, but I now regard those as misinterpretations/hyperboles/noble lies. Sorry, but I don't think I can help much more. Hopefully you'll get some more replies tomorrow, because I am not as learned in the knowledge of the afterlife as others here surely are.
 
In thinking about the original question, I found myself asking: Why would we expect somebody to be punished after they die? I mean, are we really so bent upon vengeance that we need to believe that if you do something wrong, you will be punished after dying?

If we did not believe we would be punished after dying, would we just go around stealing, raping, and killing eachother? Is our sense of compassion so twisted that without fearing payback in an afterlife of some kind, we would just conduct ourselves as selfishly, cruelly, and violently as we please, and never look back?
 
Yeah, that's why I was thinking that Hell as put forth in Christianity is just one of those noble lies. Just like how everyone is not told about reincarnation, because they would just waste this life and depend on the next one.

I have a problem integrating reincarnation with various afterlife scenarios though.
 
Well if we are reincarnated, which I believe we are, then how can there be a life in between reincarnations, and what would be the point of it since reincarnations are affected by karma as well. If we are punished in our subsequent lives, then where did the notion of Hell even come from and is something like it true?

I just never really thought of it until now. Recently, I had just assumed that reincarnation happens with periods of unconsciousness in between, and those that have ascended outside the wheel just go to better places.
 
moseslmpg said:
Well if we are reincarnated, which I believe we are, then how can there be a life in between reincarnations, and what would be the point of it since reincarnations are affected by karma as well. If we are punished in our subsequent lives, then where did the notion of Hell even come from and is something like it true?

I just never really thought of it until now. Recently, I had just assumed that reincarnation happens with periods of unconsciousness in between, and those that have ascended outside the wheel just go to better places.
Click to expand...
Ok, this is long, sorry ...

I think that part of the unfortunate consequence of the emphasis on a heaven-hell duality ... is that it leaves us with a false understanding of the very gradual and gentle transition that occurs at death.

What we learn from those who have memories of having died, is that there is NOT a sharp division between heaven and hell, as the speculating theologians have suggested. Memories come in all shapes, sizes and flavors. They range from people who have had Near-Death Experiences (NDEs), Out-of-Body Experiences (OBEs), direct clairvoyant perception of people dead & dying ... to varying forms of direct awareness of previous deaths, at the end of previous lives.

There are also individuals who can consciously leave the body at will ("astral projection" or "mental/spiritual projection") ... as well as the testimony of people under hypnosis - not only as to previous lives, but also as the various stages of death. Add to this the testimony and experience of many types & grades of mediums, including those who are very practiced and are, quite frankly, in touch with dead people all the time ... and you have a HUGE variety of eyewitness testimony as to what happens after death.

Now the skeptic will readily discount all of this, and the die-hard, dyed-in-the-wool Bible thumper will tell you what s/he believes ... yet neither of these is actually a refutation of the firsthand experience(s) of the people I've mentioned. Eastern religions have had a more accurate picture of the stages of the afterlife for millennia. Both the Tibetan "Book of the Dead" and the Egyptian "Book of the Dead," give us details that are worth considering.

But I believe the various Theosophical accounts, the contributions of the Spiritualists, and the esoteric teachings given out in the 20th Century ... clear the matter up nicely for those who have serious questions, and are ready for serious, accurate answers. If you want to approach the subject from the perspective of a Virginia businessman who was NOT particularly religious - or a student of the Wisdom Teachings - try Journeys Out of the Body, by Robert Monroe. And you'll find, if you read the book, that his account will fit quite nicely with the more accurate instruction regarding the astral plane ... by Theosophists and esotericists.

I recommend the book by the same title by C.W. Leadbeater, for a detailed account of what we can expect after death, as well as a good inventory of the scenery, inhabitants and phenomena associated with the astral plane in general. There are better books; I just happen to like the way Leadbeater goes about describing things. He is very thorough, and easy to understand. There is SOME Sanskrit terminology, but not a glut of it, and it's easy to look up these days using the web.

As for why we would need to continue in our conscious progress after death, look at it like this: We have accumulated MUCH learning, knowledge & experience during our threescore and ten, or these days, FIVEscore years here on Earth. This information and potential wisdom is not meant to go to waste. And it doesn't. But the idea that we are immediately and summarily judged, then directed either to a heaven or hell accordingly, is absurd. And this is why:

No finite cause produces an infinite result. This is a good bit of logic, and while the Bible thumper loves to say things like, "God is beyond logic," s/he forgets that God does not DEFY logic. God simply transcends it. The irony is (or, is it irony? isn't it - ah, logical! :p) ... God turns out to be FAR more logical than we'd every dreamed!!! :) Questions that we have trouble answering, as we try and figure out how the Universe ticks, turn out to have very basic, even simple, answers. It's just the mechanism, that we find is far more intricate, and amazing in its Beauty, than any of us have ever imagined!

The movie What Dreams May Come (with Robin Williams) is a great way to explore what will happen after death. The movie is unusual in that it explores the afterlife of suicides, yet this too, is an important question for us to ask. Good ol' Ghost, with Patrick Swayze, Demi Moore, and Whoopi Goldberg, is an excellent pointer toward another aspect of the afterlife - this time involving the "earthbound" soul. I love how the movie integrates elements of Spiritualism, with the popular lore and humour surrounding mediums ... plus manages to communicate moral messages, and really sticks to what we know occurs after death, from scientific investigation.

Speaking of science, try looking up the recent (and current) research of Gary Schwartz (Arizona State Univ, maybe???). He's written several books already, but most fascinating is that he's really helping to advanced our understanding of life after death from a scientific point of view. And none of this pseudo-science nonsense that the skeptics love to throw around, in an attempt to discount something they don't understand.

The bottom line is, we KNOW there is a life after death, and it ISN'T heaven ... and it ISN'T hell. It's a little bit of both, perhaps, for everyone, yet ultimately, we are drawn onward - pulled, by the magnetic power of God's Loving Presence - toward the "Heaven-world" of Devachan. EVERY religion teaches this, using one word or another for a blissful state ... that is actually temporary, though it is TIMELESS, being beyond both time and space, or even thought as we know it. Several hundred years, literally, may pass as we "rest" in Devachan - though our consciousness is infinitely more active, alive, and awake than it ever has been on Earth.

Relative to our Earthly experiences, it might be said that the Heaven-world is LIKE unconsciousness ... and for a very young, inexperienced soul, this will technically be true. There will nothing in the "Soul body" of such an individual that is capable of resonating with, or receiving, vibrations that refined. Therefore, s/he sleeps. But even this, we should understand, is a BLISSFUL sleep - because remember, there is NO material body, NO emotional (astral) body ... there is simply the mental body - or the vehicle of Consciousness itself ("Soul body," or `the Soul').

And it is the SOUL which reincarnates, although the Soul should be understood as having a higher, Spiritual component, which is always fully aware & in tune with God's Plan ... as well as a mortal, human component, which descends into incarnation in order to learn, grow, and experience life in the three worlds. We CANNOT move straight from the physical world to the Heaven-world after death, because we are - normally - quite encrusted with the heaviness (the dross, the grossness) of the three worlds. The astral plane, called PURGATORY by the Catholics, exists to help us - after each life - to CLEANSE ourselves from the impurities of outer life.

None of us are exempt from this. NONE. The ONLY way we can skip such a process, it to live purely, and to work consciously to undergo this purification during each incarnation. And this is what the Baptism, or 2nd Spiritual Initiation is all about. The SYMBOL of this great event is preserved in the Christian Sacrament ... although by NO means does the sprinkling on the head with a bit of holy water suddenly accomplish what is required for the 2nd Initiation.

Just as the Birth of Christ in the heart - the 1st Initiation - is the BEGINNING of the Spiritual Path, and not its end (as "born-again" Christians apparently believe) ... neither is Baptism the end of the road, either. It means we enter through a narrower gate than we have yet passed through, and it will certainly help us in the afterlife, as we move very swiftly through the various levels of the astral plane. Normally, a person may spend years, even decades, going through this stage.

Not only is a cyclical purification occurring, but we are also making several important adjustments. We are GARNERING the experience from our life just lived, and learning to see these experiences in a higher Light. Also, we are slowly, gradually, gently adjusting to a body, a state of being, and an entire worldview or orientation to life ... in which the outer, physical world is not at the forefront of our attention.

For awhile, we DO maintain a touch, a connection - occasionally perceiving, or re-experiencing the outer world. In the dreams of our friends and loved ones, we communicate and mutually experience their presence directly. But in time, this contact becomes less frequent (and they know & understand) ... because the matter, the substance, of our astral bodies - just like our phsyical - is slowly shaking loose, falling back to the earth.

Only in cases where we have been VERY attached to the sins of the flesh, as Christians call them, will this be particularly painful. This means drugs and drink, sex and violence, and especially cases of human wickedness, malice, brutality and avoidable evil ... will result in a TRULY HELLISH time for people in the afterlife. The NATURAL process of purgation and cleansing is hindered and slowed ... and in extreme cases, people fight it - JUST as they do during incarnation. We are mistaken, if we believe that the same RULES and LAWS that apply in the physical world, suddenly disappear in the astral world. The SAME GOD created both this world, AND Heaven. Thus, although some worlds are subtler, and the higher worlds are closer to God's direct Presence, the law of Karma is NOT suspended.

Hell can be understood much, much better if we know something of the various levels, or worlds (also called planes) of being. Eastern teachings OFTEN refer to "the three worlds" of human endeavor. Animals share two of these with us, vegetables & minerals share only one. Aristotle spoke of our existence in the three worlds as the rational soul, the animal soul, and the vegetative soul. This is precisely what the Eastern Wisdom has always indicated, and of course, the learned Greeks were quite aware of this. So these worlds, and Aristotelian souls, are the thinking, the emotional (astral), and the vital ...

The Soul in its own world, however, stands transcendent of the three worlds, yet Humanity is the middle or bridging kingdom, between the animal, vegetable & mineral. We get our MATERIAL components (bodies) from the world, our Spiritual (or highest) component from God, and the Soul itself is the `Christ principle' - the potential consciousness of a Christ, or Buddha. It's up to US, with the Soul's help (and God's), to DEVELOP our spirituality ... and for this, NO ONE else can take charge, or do our work for us.

So death, it turns out, is not different than life ... in that WE are in charge of what happens, within the milieu of experience, responsibility and reaping which God has provided. NO ONE is immune to the Law(s) or exempt, and while Faith can help move us along, and get us unstuck sometimes ... it will NEVER subsititute for the action that is required to move us forward. I cannot BELIEVE my way from A to B. I must WALK. Of course, if I doubt my ability to do this enough ... then I will never take the first step.

(sorry, train of thought ended here - but the next run for the astral plane will be along shortly. please present your ticket upon boarding. ;) :))

cheers,

taijasa/andrew
 
how do i know that i havnt been marked for hell before death, or that ididnt forfeit my soul?

i have an upside down triangle indentation (like a stamp) in my forehead abovemy brow, between eyes

ive never seen tis before

its like a shadow, indentation in the skin

i feel doomed or cursed,

im changing my pat and working through my problems.

but i cant shake the scary thoughts
 
how do i know that i havnt been marked for hell before death, or that ididnt forfeit my soul?

i have an upside down triangle indentation (like a stamp) in my forehead abovemy brow, between eyes

ive never seen tis before

its like a shadow, indentation in the skin

i feel doomed or cursed,

im changing my pat and working through my problems.

but i cant shake the scary thoughts
Click to expand...

What?:confused:
 
Thanks Taijasi, I remember reading something like that before. In fact I just read something like that today in Paradise Lost. I assume the Leadbeater book you mean is the Astral Plane and its scenery, inhabitants, and phenomena...or something like that. If so, it's already in my Amazon wishlist. Even though I risk going too off topic here in shadow's thread (forgive me if I am), is there a certain amount of time that is agreed upon between reincarnations? I've heard that insects reincarnate almost instantly. I may need to start a new thread though...

shadowman said:
how do i know that i havnt been marked for hell before death, or that ididnt forfeit my soul?

i have an upside down triangle indentation (like a stamp) in my forehead abovemy brow, between eyes

ive never seen tis before

its like a shadow, indentation in the skin

i feel doomed or cursed,

im changing my pat and working through my problems.

but i cant shake the scary thoughts
Click to expand...
1. As far as I know, you can't be marked for Hell and you can't forfeit your soul. Your soul is you and at best, you can forfeit your body and mind. Likewise, IMO hell does not exist, like Taijasi says, as a separate manner of being. So you can't be doomed to Hell any more than you can be doomed to feeling uncomfortable when you go out for a stroll in the park.

2. That indentation thing is weird, are you sure it's not a bruise? Can you take a picture of it?

3. Go talk to a priest. It sounds like some freaky stuff is going on there, if I understand you correctly. Changing your patterns and stuff doesn't do much in certain cases, until you have freed yourself from whatever you perceive as threatening you.
 
ok the indentation actually appears when i raise my brows

i have been paying attention to peoples faces, and some people get indentations, marks or circles
likea big shaped wrinkle in various spots on the middle of their forehead. mine was kind of large and triangular, but the sides of the triangle are formed by the skull eye brow bones i think. and i gues the top is the skin fat that comes up when i raise my eyebrows

i guess its normal, but its pretty weird looking

according to jungian psycho analysis i have schizo typal thought patterns

i was leading a "hellish life"

and my psyche is in a "hellish state" (karma in real life)

it seems very real to me because the subconscious is powerful, and i can basically hear it talking

at least i hope that is what is going on because the religious/mythical alternative would suck!
 
so far most dogs still like me as well as little kids, who are harder to read. some seem put off by me.

i also hear crows cawing more than norma

this is probably just because i"wat" to be part of some grand scheme myth and am putting everything through a devil filter

i will break down what is happening from the jugian standpoint soon enough

i do want to see a priest

i wish i could find onethat wont just regurgitate what i think they might tell me

my psychoanalysist is an ex lutheran pastor
 
Well, if you're afraid of being preached to by a priest, then I guess you can hold out a little longer. There may come a point when you need to though.

As for your psychoanalysis, do you subscribe to that or to the religious aspect? Because your answer to that determines how you should approach this. If you believe it's just your subconscious, then there's no need to worry about the afterlife anyway. Isn't schizotypy a personality disorder anyway?
 
so this triangle indentation when i raise eye brows

humphrey bogart has something similar

i wonder if he sold his soul

humphrey_bogart.jpg



Bogart.jpg




bogart.jpg
 
I'm fairly sure that is merely a feature of physiognomy. This is not the Dark Ages, after all, so having a body that is a little different from others doesn't mean you need to be burned at the stake. I have three huge lines when I raise my eyebrows, and surely it is nothing diabolical.
 
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